On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>
>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>>>>
>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the same
>>>> glass?
>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but different
>>> glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or without a
>>> heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>
>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers also
>> suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's Meridians.
>> Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile data use, very
>> few others were into it that early.
>
> And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
> inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time Voyagers
> had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for at least a decade.

I have made no such claim.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>>>> went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>
>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>>>> a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about
>>>>> its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>> incompetence around.
>
>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>
>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>> heat loss through the windows.
>>
>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience,
>>> ones  that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well
>>> after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700 used on the
>>> Thameslink  network which were designed and built in the last decade
>>> - it's hard to  believe that the designers were unaware of the
>>> existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that mobile phone
>>> signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems likely to me that
>>> the designers simply didn't care.
>>
>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>
> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings husband
> "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the first thing he
> thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm on the train".
>
>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time. The
>> iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>
>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked to
>> dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>
>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>
> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.

I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.

[1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
Usually when working on news.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same
>>>>>>glass.
>>>>>
>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>same glass?

>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>different glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or without
>>>>a heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>
>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers also
>>>suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's Meridians.
>>>Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile data use, very
>>>few others were into it that early.

>> And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time Voyagers
>>had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for at least a decade.
>
>I have made no such claim.

Only two (or is it three) times?
--
Roland Perry

On 11/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>> news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>> same  glass?
>
>>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>> different  glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or
>>>>> without a  heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>>
>>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers also
>>>> suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's Meridians.
>>>> Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile data use,
>>>> very few others were into it that early.
>
>>>  And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>> inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time Voyagers
>>> had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for at least a
>>> decade.
>>
>> I have made no such claim.
>
> Only two (or is it three) times?

Really? Please cite where I used those exact words.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:37 +0000
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>>>>> went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>>>>> a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about
>>>>>> its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>> incompetence around.
>>
>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>
>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>
>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience,
>>>> ones  that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well
>>>> after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700 used on the
>>>> Thameslink  network which were designed and built in the last decade
>>>> - it's hard to  believe that the designers were unaware of the
>>>> existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that mobile phone
>>>> signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems likely to me that
>>>> the designers simply didn't care.
>>>
>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>
>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings husband
>> "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the first thing he
>> thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm on the train".
>>
>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time. The
>>> iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>
>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked to
>>> dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>
>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>
>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>
>I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.

I've still got my original Motorola one2one. Still works too though only
when plugged into the charger, the 2nd and 3rd batteries having died years ago.

In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>incompetence around.
>>
>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>
>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>heat loss through the windows.
>>>
>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>
>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>on the train".
>>
>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>
>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>(loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>
>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.

>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>
>I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.

The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.

Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
general public came into that category.

One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.

By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.

Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.

Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
voice calls, faxes were an exception).

>[1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>Usually when working on news.

--
Roland Perry

In message <su5h63$bba$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>
>>>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same glass.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>>>same  glass?
>>
>>>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>>>different  glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or
>>>>>>without a  heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers
>>>>>also suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's
>>>>>Meridians. Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile
>>>>>data use, very few others were into it that early.
>>
>>>>  And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>>>inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time
>>>>Voyagers had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for at
>>>>least a decade.
>>>
>>> I have made no such claim.
>> Only two (or is it three) times?
>
>Really? Please cite where I used those exact words.

You know.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>
>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>
>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>
>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>> on the train".
>>>
>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>
>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>
>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>
>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>
> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>
> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
> general public came into that category.
>
> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>
> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>
> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>
> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>
>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>> Usually when working on news.
>

I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
up.

On 11/02/2022 11:44, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 11:14:37 +0000
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all traffic
>>>>>>> went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they found
>>>>>>> a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care about
>>>>>>> its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>
>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>
>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>
>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my experience,
>>>>> ones  that were designed and built much more recently, mostly well
>>>>> after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700 used on the
>>>>> Thameslink  network which were designed and built in the last decade
>>>>> - it's hard to  believe that the designers were unaware of the
>>>>> existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that mobile phone
>>>>> signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems likely to me that
>>>>> the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>
>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>
>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings husband
>>> "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the first thing he
>>> thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm on the train".
>>>
>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time. The
>>>> iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked to
>>>> dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>
>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>>
>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>
>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>
> I've still got my original Motorola one2one. Still works too though only
> when plugged into the charger, the 2nd and 3rd batteries having died years ago.
>

I got a larger battery pack for my Motorola, with that fitted the phone
lasted nearly 8 hours on standby!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/02/2022 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su5h63$bba$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same
>>>>>>>>> glass.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>>>> same  glass?
>>>
>>>>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>>>> different  glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or
>>>>>>> without a  heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers
>>>>>> also  suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's
>>>>>> Meridians.  Despite his claims to being the world leader in mobile
>>>>>> data use,  very few others were into it that early.
>>>
>>>>>  And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>>>> inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time
>>>>> Voyagers  had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for
>>>>> at least a  decade.
>>>>
>>>> I have made no such claim.
>>>  Only two (or is it three) times?
>>
>> Really? Please cite where I used those exact words.
>
> You know.

You don't, obvioulsy

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/02/2022 14:24, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>>> on the train".
>>>>
>>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>>
>>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>
>>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>>
>>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>>
>> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
>> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
>> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>>
>> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
>> general public came into that category.
>>
>> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
>> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>>
>> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
>> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>>
>> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>>
>> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
>> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
>> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
>> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
>> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
>> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
>> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>>
>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>> Usually when working on news.
>>
>
> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
> up.
>

Only used that system once, on a WCML train from London to Carlisle.
Very expensive as I recall and the connection wasn't very good.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <su5rid$kss$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:13 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>up.

Isn't that the same technology as they were using in some land-based
phone boxes?
--
Roland Perry

In message <su5s67$nin$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:34:47 on Fri, 11 Feb
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 11/02/2022 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <su5h63$bba$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11
>>>>>>Feb 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>>>>>same  glass?
>>>>
>>>>>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>>>>>different  glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or
>>>>>>>>without a  heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers
>>>>>>>also  suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's
>>>>>>>Meridians.  Despite his claims to being the world leader in
>>>>>>>mobile data use,  very few others were into it that early.
>>>>
>>>>>>  And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>>>>>inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time
>>>>>>Voyagers  had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for
>>>>>>at least a  decade.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have made no such claim.

>>>>  Only two (or is it three) times?
>>>
>>> Really? Please cite where I used those exact words.

>> You know.
>
>You don't, obvioulsy

"Exact words" is your only straw to clutch at, here.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <su5rid$kss$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:24:13 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>> up.
>
> Isn't that the same technology as they were using in some land-based
> phone boxes?

Yes. Optical phone cards. More here

http://www.telephonecardcollector.com/optical-cardphone-payphone.htm

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>
> If anyone travels on a gWr IET could they confirm that Realtime Trains
> is blocked on their wifi?
>

IIRC that's been fixed now, I'll check tomorrow if I remember.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 11/02/2022 15:29, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <su5s67$nin$4@dont-email.me>, at 14:34:47 on Fri, 11 Feb
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 11/02/2022 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <su5h63$bba$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:26:59 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/02/2022 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <su5frh$2fd$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:04:17 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <su5716$b9b$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:33:42 on Fri, 11
>>>>>>> Feb  2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 22:33, NY wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:su429m$coq$1@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They might be the same windows but did they contain the same
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In what sense does "used the same windows" not imply using the
>>>>>>>>>> same  glass?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  You could have a situation which used the same frames but
>>>>>>>>> different  glass. Or even same frames and glass, but with or
>>>>>>>>> without a  heat-reflective (and mobile-blocking) coating.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Except we are talking about the RF blocking which the Voyagers
>>>>>>>> also  suffer from and are up to 4 years older than Roland's
>>>>>>>> Meridians.  Despite his claims to being the world leader in
>>>>>>>> mobile  data use,  very few others were into it that early.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  And despite your claims that it was only data users who were
>>>>>>> inconvenienced, it was mainly voice-callers. And by the time
>>>>>>> Voyagers  had been introduced, mobile phones were commonplace for
>>>>>>> at least a  decade.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have made no such claim.
>
>>>>>  Only two (or is it three) times?
>>>>
>>>> Really? Please cite where I used those exact words.
>
>>>  You know.
>>
>> You don't, obvioulsy
>
> "Exact words" is your only straw to clutch at, here.

Healey!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 11/02/2022 16:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> If anyone travels on a gWr IET could they confirm that Realtime Trains
>> is blocked on their wifi?
>>
>
> IIRC that's been fixed now, I'll check tomorrow if I remember.
>

It wasn't on Tuesday but please check.

It was quite important as some of the engineering works changes hadn't
made their way into the travel planners.

On 11/02/2022 14:24, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>>
>>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>>
>>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>>> on the train".
>>>>
>>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>>
>>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>
>>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>>
>>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>>
>> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
>> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
>> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>>
>> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
>> general public came into that category.
>>
>> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
>> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>>
>> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
>> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>>
>> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>>
>> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
>> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
>> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
>> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
>> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
>> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
>> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>>
>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>> Usually when working on news.
>>
>
> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
> up.
>
I thought that this was how many card-operated phone boxes worked.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>

>>
>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>> up.
>>
>
> Only used that system once, on a WCML train from London to Carlisle.
> Very expensive as I recall and the connection wasn't very good.
>

They were a feature of the Wessex electrics when they were introduced, the
phone was installed in its own booth .
Similar phones could be found on the Red Funnel ferries between Southampton
and Cowes and I have a feeling on some of the cross channel ferries out of
Portsmouth, the latter presumably only were available when in range of the
UK coast, or maybe there was an arrangement with France so they worked near
there as well.

All had a relatively short period where they were useful, as phones shrunk
business people started to carry their own and others would not use them
much due to cost . Then when mobiles became affordable for many others
there was no use for them and they were taken out.

GH

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 00:28:41 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
<hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 11/02/2022 14:24, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>>>> on the train".
>>>>>
>>>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>>
>>>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>>>
>>>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>>>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>>>
>>> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
>>> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
>>> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>>>
>>> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
>>> general public came into that category.
>>>
>>> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
>>> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>>>
>>> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
>>> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>>>
>>> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>>>
>>> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
>>> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
>>> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
>>> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
>>> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
>>> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
>>> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>>>
>>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>>> Usually when working on news.
>>>
>>
>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>> up.
>>
>I thought that this was how many card-operated phone boxes worked.
>
Not for some years. Cardphones (I've only seen them in recent times at
main railway stations or airports; you might now only get SIM cards at
the latter) now use either or both of dedicated chip cards, ordinary
credit/debit cards; some might be combined with a phone taking cash.
Otherwise you can use pre-paid cards -
https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-phonecards

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 00:28:41 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/02/2022 14:24, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>>>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>>>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>>>>> on the train".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>>>
>>>>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>>>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>>>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>>>>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>>>>
>>>> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
>>>> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
>>>> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
>>>> general public came into that category.
>>>>
>>>> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
>>>> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>>>>
>>>> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
>>>> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>>>>
>>>> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
>>>> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
>>>> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
>>>> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
>>>> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
>>>> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
>>>> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>>>>
>>>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>>>> Usually when working on news.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>>> up.
>>>
>> I thought that this was how many card-operated phone boxes worked.
>>
> Not for some years. Cardphones (I've only seen them in recent times at
> main railway stations or airports; you might now only get SIM cards at
> the latter) now use either or both of dedicated chip cards, ordinary
> credit/debit cards; some might be combined with a phone taking cash.
> Otherwise you can use pre-paid cards -
> https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-phonecards
>

The optical cards were used in static phone boxes at the same time as these
pay phones were on the trains. However the units got eaten up very much
faster on the train.

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>>> up.
>>>
>>
>> Only used that system once, on a WCML train from London to Carlisle.
>> Very expensive as I recall and the connection wasn't very good.
>>
>
> They were a feature of the Wessex electrics when they were introduced, the
> phone was installed in its own booth .
> Similar phones could be found on the Red Funnel ferries between Southampton
> and Cowes and I have a feeling on some of the cross channel ferries out of
> Portsmouth, the latter presumably only were available when in range of the
> UK coast, or maybe there was an arrangement with France so they worked near
> there as well.
>
> All had a relatively short period where they were useful, as phones shrunk
> business people started to carry their own and others would not use them
> much due to cost . Then when mobiles became affordable for many others
> there was no use for them and they were taken out.
>

There was obviously a revival at some point, because card-operated
payphones (were fitted to 158s when they were new, and even Voyagers!

I don't remember what rates they charged, though.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 00:28:41 +0000, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk"
> <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 11/02/2022 14:24, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 12:51, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I had assumed that the reason it was hard to get a mobile phone
>>>>>>>>>> signal in many railway carriages was that the designers had
>>>>>>>>>> deliberately set up a Faraday cage, though I couldn't work out why
>>>>>>>>>> the railway companies would want to do that - to ensure all
>>>>>>>>>> traffic went via their own Wifi service so as to snoop on it somehow?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But it seems likely to be a simple bit of incompetence - they
>>>>>>>>>> found a  way to reduce heat loss slightly and simply didn't care
>>>>>>>>>> about its effect on mobile phone signals.  Now there may be a solution:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://techxplore.com/news/2022-02-windows-permeable-mobile-phone.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'd check the dates before you start bandying accusations of
>>>>>>>>> incompetence around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Well mobile phones have been around since the early 1990s.  It is
>>>>>>>> interesting that carriages made in earlier decades always seem to
>>>>>>>> have windows that are transparent to mobile phone and GPS signals
>>>>>>>> even though  the need to do this cannot possibly have been foreseen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's because the designers didn't care (in your words) about the
>>>>>>> heat loss through the windows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  The carriages that have radio-opaque signals are, in my
>>>>>>>> experience, ones  that were designed and built much more recently,
>>>>>>>> mostly well after the  advent of mobile phones.  Take the class 700
>>>>>>>> used on the Thameslink  network which were designed and built in
>>>>>>>> the last decade - it's hard to  believe that the designers were
>>>>>>>> unaware of the existence of mobile  phones.  I've no evidence that
>>>>>>>> mobile phone signals were deliberately  blocked, but it seems
>>>>>>>> likely to me that the designers simply didn't care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It wasn't a thing then and the main problem with mobiles on trains
>>>>>>> were the relatively few people who had them ringing people up just to
>>>>>>> boast they were on the train, allegedly.[1]
>>>>>> This probably arises from the common conversation: Wife rings
>>>>>> husband "Where are you!", Husband (just as much because it's the
>>>>>> first thing he thinks of, not because he's trying to be awkward) "I'm
>>>>>> on the train".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The mobile data revolution didn't get going for quite a long time.
>>>>>>> The iPhone[2] was launched in 2007.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] Well known urban myth about some city-gent type rabbiting on
>>>>>>> (loudly) on his "mobile phone". An emergency occurs and he is asked
>>>>>>> to dial 999 and has to admit the phone is a fake.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [2] Yes, for the Job-haters, I know it wasn't the first but it was
>>>>>>> arguably the one that launched the smart-phone revolution.
>>>>
>>>>>> Why still this obsession with data? Mobile phones for voice were
>>>>>> consumer products from 1993 (One2One), 1994 (Orange), and before then
>>>>>> widely used on Vodafone and Cellnet.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, I had my first one in May 1993.[1] But for a good 10 years they
>>>>> were an expensive product and mainly used for business purposes.
>>>>
>>>> The tipping point was in 1994 when Cellnet launched PAYG. That was
>>>> because they'd run out of credit-worthy customers for contract phones,
>>>> which means already scraping quite low down in the consumer barrel.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, maybe not as low as you think, apparently about 50% of the
>>>> general public came into that category.
>>>>
>>>> One of my colleagues in 1995 had been central to that launch. Later, I
>>>> was in the team that launched Vodafone's PAYG in 1996.
>>>>
>>>> By the Millennium, Cellnet had ten million customers, and not doubt
>>>> there were a few more tens of million from the other networks.
>>>>
>>>> Orange's standard contract rate for most of the 90's was £25/month.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, just to be different, I'd had a Cellnet phone since 1988.
>>>> Entirely a personal gadget - my employer at the time would never have
>>>> contemplated paying for the equipment, and didn't even have an expenses
>>>> scheme which could have reimbursed the call costs. We were still banned
>>>> from making landline calls from the office in the morning, unless it was
>>>> vitally urgent, due to the higher rates pertaining at the time. (That's
>>>> voice calls, faxes were an exception).
>>>>
>>>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>>>> Usually when working on news.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>>> up.
>>>
>> I thought that this was how many card-operated phone boxes worked.
>>
> Not for some years. Cardphones (I've only seen them in recent times at
> main railway stations or airports; you might now only get SIM cards at
> the latter) now use either or both of dedicated chip cards, ordinary
> credit/debit cards; some might be combined with a phone taking cash.
> Otherwise you can use pre-paid cards -
> https://www.postoffice.co.uk/international-phonecards
>

When I used phone cards a lot in the 1990s, they appeared to be magstripe
cards.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 12/02/2022 10:55, Ken wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 14:24:13 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <su5get$6f8$4@dont-email.me>, at 11:14:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 11/02/2022 10:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <su57ht$e3e$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:42:37 on Fri, 11 Feb
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 23:30, Clive Page wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/02/2022 15:20, Graeme Wall wrote:
>
>>>> [1] Before then I's been hiring one for the odd day when I needed one.
>>>> Usually when working on news.
>>>
>>
>> I too have had a mobile phone right from the early days of ETACS analogue
>> cellular - mine was a Nokia handset on Cellnet. I even made a call on the
>> train out of St Pancras on that system. 50p per minute, which was quite a
>> lot in 1988. Trains of that era also had mobile connected pay phones, that
>> used a card that had a number of units loaded on them. The units were
>> literally burnt off a plastic strip embedded in the card as they were used
>> up.
>
> The plastic strip thing was a BT Phonecard which could also be used in
> call boxes.
> I was quite a regular user of the payphones on the Stansted Express
> class 322 units from 1991. They, too, were 50p/minute but I'd feel an
> urge to catch up with friends when on my way home, especially after a
> particularly enjoyable lunch. It got expensive, especially if the
> trolley passed by.
> I thought they used credit cards rather than Phonecards but may well
> be wrong, or it may have varied by route.
> I was on a GWR service once waiting in the buffet queue for the
> mandatory bacon and tomato roll when a chap was getting very irate
> trying to use the payphone. I'd have thought it was obvious that the
> signal might drop as we entered the Severn Tunnel, but he just
> expected the phone to carry on as normal.

That still happens with people on their mobile. I've witnessed that
behaviour on a number of occasions.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 11/02/2022 16:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If anyone travels on a gWr IET could they confirm that Realtime Trains
>>> is blocked on their wifi?
>>>
>>
>> IIRC that's been fixed now, I'll check tomorrow if I remember.
>>
>
> It wasn't on Tuesday but please check.
>
> It was quite important as some of the engineering works changes hadn't
> made their way into the travel planners.
>

I can confirm that both RTT and RailMiles worked on gWr IET on-train WiFi
for me today.

Anna Noyd-Dryver