On 21/03/2023 3:47 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 21/3/2023 2:01 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 19/03/2023 6:05 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 19/03/2023 8:08 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just for yuks, I compared the Tesla Model 3 to it's nearest ICE
>>>> competitor - the Mercedes C Class.
>>>>
>>>> The C200 is roughly the same size as the Tesla Model 3 (though the
>>>> Merc carries slightly less luggage (445L vs. 561L) and costs $79k,
>>>> compared to the Tesla's $64k. The Tesla is quicker to 100kph, at 6.1
>>>> secs vs. the Merc's 7.3 secs.
>>>
>>> Why are you so hung up on the 0-100 times, hardly anybody (other than
>>> a teenager in a stolen car) does that anyway.
>>
>> **I'm not. However, I listed a number of factors that allowed
>> comparison of the Tesla to the C Class Merc (though the Tesla is
>> slightly bigger in some areas). Both vehicles:
>>
>> * Are RWD
>> * Seat five in comfort
>> * Carry 455L (Merc) and 561L of stuff in the boot
>> * Have reasonable performance (rather more spectacular in the case of
>> the AMG Merc and the high end Tesla)
>>
>> I dunno about you, but find having a reasonable level of performance
>> allows for far more relaxed driving, as overtaking can be managed easily.
>>
>>
>>   There is a good reason why
>>> you wouldn't especially in an electric car. Don't know about your
>>> cars, but my Mazda 3 can show instantaneous fuel consumption.
>>> According to the specs it can do 0-100 in 8 seconds (it has the 2.5
>>> litre engine) but if I mash the throttle to the floor from standstill
>>> it will show 40+l/100km in a car 400Kg lighter than the Tesla 3.
>>
>> **Fuel economy in an ICE is truly horrible when you jam your foot to
>> the floor. No doubt about it. My last few cars have provided
>> instantaneous fuel consumption and it a sobering experience to watch.
>>
>> Here's the thing though: That horrible fuel economy begins when you
>> start the engine from cold. For a few minutes fuel economy is also
>> stunningly bad. The numbers suggest that when driven cold and/or very
>> hard, the efficiency of an ICE engine falls to around 5%.
>>
>> In an EV, motor efficiency never falls much below 85 ~ 90%. I'd be far
>> more concerned about tyres. EVs are no different to ICE cars at high
>> speeds. More electricity will be need to overcome drag in the same way
>> more petrol will be needed in an ICE car.
>>
>>   No big deal for me, there are
>>> dozens of servos where I can fill up and be on my way in 5 minutes. A
>>> bit different in a Tesla though, you've just blown a fair bit of your
>>> range, there are a lot less places to "Fill up" and it will take a
>>> fair bit longer than 5 minutes to do so.
>>
>> **I'll challenge that claim. In fact, since the Tesla does accelerate
>> rather quickly, you'll reach the desired speed more quickly (all at
>> more than 90% efficiency). As for filling up, H2 fuel cell EVs will
>> deal with most of the problem.
>>
>>>
>>> When it comes down to it what difference is it going to make to your
>>> life being able to chop 1.9 seconds off the time to 100km/hr for
>>> double the price of a Mazda 3?
>>
>> **I have no idea why you would compare a MUCH larger, RWD car to a
>> Mazda 3. Mercedes and BMW (and Lexus) are pretty much the only RWD car
>> makers around today. THEY are the competition for Tesla, not the much
>> smaller, FWD and slower Mazda 3.
>>
>>>
>>> 0-100 times are click bait, salesman's patter to interest the husband.
>>
>> **I rather like having a car that can accelerate quickly. It can come
>> in handy.
>>
>>> I'd lay odds that it doesn't make a significant difference to the
>>> buying decision in 99% of cases,
>>
>> **I call 'bullshit' on that claim. When I see just how many AMGs
>> Mercedes Benz sell:
>>
>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/2020-mercedes-amg-sales-running-hot-in-australia-following-a35-a45-s-glc43-cla35-and-cla45
>>
>> TWENTY ONE PERCENT of all Mercs sold are AMG variants. Do you
>> seriously think that those AMG buyers have no interest in accelerating
>> quickly?
>>
>>   the main reason that people buy Teslas is that
>>> they are fashionable, and they can boast about their green credentials.
>>
>> **AND:
>>
>> * Tesla cars are well sorted
>> * Most Tesla models are quick
>> * Tesla cars are well priced
>
> Well priced, you must be joking?

**Nope. They are competitive with other BEVs and VERY competitive with
brands like Mercedes Benz.

> The best selling cars are in the low $30k price range, a Model 3 cost
> more than double that, you have totally lost the plot if you think that
> any Tesla is "well priced", IMHO a more reasonable price for a Model 3
> would be mid $40k's.

**Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
over-priced.

>>
>>
>>> People buy Fords, Mazdas, Hyundais etc because they want reliable
>>> transport at a reasonable price, people buy Mercs, BMWs, Volvos etc
>>> because they think that their cars say something about their success
>>> in life, Teslas are no different.
>>
>> **Maybe.
>
> No maybe about it, a Tesla is a lifestyle choice, you just have to talk
> to the "look at me I'm wonderful" types that mostly buy them, they
> certainly are out of the new car price range of the average person.

**Possibly. I don't know how much "the average person" spends on a car.

>>
>>>
>>> PS. Tesla's "Autopilot" is a POS it seems to regularly kill those who
>>> trust it (I don't think that it's even legal here).
>>
>> **Of course it's not legal in Australia.
>>
>
>
> I hope that it never is.

**It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.

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On 21/03/2023 3:50 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 3:19 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 18/03/2023 10:27 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> In any logical sense, a "normal" car would be the type used in the
>>> last 100 years. Ie: powered by an internal combustion engine. EV's
>>> while not new in essence, are an emerging trend in the automotive
>>> world and are very definitely *not* the "norm" as we sit here today.
>>
>> **"Normal" is a relative term. Within a decades, ICE cars will be a
>> niche purchase.
>
> Time will tell. ICE's have done pretty well over the last 100 odd years,
> and despite all the hype from the bleeding hear tree huggers they're not
> going away any time soon.

**Yes, they are. Unless they are part of a hybrid system anyway.

>
>>>   > Moreover, in less than 10 years, you will have to look real
>>>> hard to buy a car that runs on fossil fuels.
>>>
>>> Um, no. I'll have to do nothing more difficult to walk out into my
>>> workshop and pick which one I want to drive.
>>
>> **I should said: "...you will have to look real hard to buy a NEW car
>> that runs on fossil fuels."
>
> And you'd *still* be wrong. In "less than ten years" it will not be at
> all difficult to buy a new fossil fuelled vehicle. 2030 is under 8 years
> away, and the world ain't going to make that kind of paradigm shift in
> that amount of time.

**Don't count on it. ALL cars will be BEVs, H2 fuel cell EVs and/or some
kind of hybrid. Even Mercedes, with their hero AMG has moved already:

https://www.mercedes-amg.com/en/vehicles/c-class/sedan.html

What was once a 6.3L V8 (with a friggin' awesome soundtrack), now comes
with a 4 cylinder engine supplemented by BEV power.

>
>>> There will still be fossil fuelled vehicles on the market in ten
>>> years time....
>>
>> **Sure and the vast majority will have a battery/electric motor to
>> supplement the motive force.
>
> Some might. We'll have to wait and see. I suspect that not all will. Not
> even close to all.

**With the possible exception of the very, VERY low end of the market,
perhaps. Everything else will be battery/electric.

>
>>>> **Not at all. You were claiming that Tesla (specifically) was
>>>> "double what they are worth". I showed you that you lied.
>>>
>>> ROTFL :) You did no such thing at all :)
>>>
>>> Just to inject a bit of reality back into the conversation, he was
>>> giving his opinion, and that's not a "lie".
>>
>> **OK. I'll accept that Dazza's opinion has not been proven and was
>> rooted in ignorance.
>
> Accept whatever you like, but his opinion that Tesla's are an over
> priced car, which is one I happen to agree with, is no more or less
> rooted in ignorance than your opinion that Aluminium-Ion batteries will
> revolutionise the Electric Car industry.
>
> It is an opinion that you happen to believe to be true, despite you not
> ever having offered a single thing to support it.

**Huh? reading is not your greatest ability then? I've cited evidence
many times:

https://graphenemg.com/

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fchem.2019.00268/full

I readily acknowledge that Al-Ion batteries are not ready yet.

>
>>   Secondly, you did *nothing*
>>> to show that a Tesla is not a massively over priced vehicle of
>>> dubious quality by showing a list of other irrelevant vehicles with
>>> different price tags.
>>
>> **I showed other, similar sized cars.
>
> You pointed to *one* car, which had nothing whatsoever to do with how
> people perceive Teslas.

**Wrong. I cited THREE cars.

>
>>>> **They might make zero economic sense to YOU. Or not. You don't
>>>> know. You are making unfounded assumptions, based on zero personal
>>>> knowledge and experience.
>>>
>>> Just out of curiosity here Trev, what exactly is *your* experience
>>> with Tesla's?
>>
>> **I've CLOSELY examined a couple of Model 3 cars. I've ridden in a
>> late model one. VERY, VERY impressive performance, silence and
>> spacious interior.
>
> Right. So you're no more of an "expert" about them than anyone else here.
>
> Noted :)

**I never claimed to be one. Have you ridden in a Tesla Model 3?

I have.

>
>>   If the answer to that is "zero", then take a moment to explain
>>> why you think *your* argument in favour of things trumps anyone
>>> else's against them.
>>
>> **I am not necessarily in favour of Teslas. I am pointing out the
>> errors espoused by Dazza and others.
>
> Lol :)
>
> Someone is not in "error" just because they have an opinion you happen
> to disagree with :)

**Sure. However, Dazza WAS in error.

>
>>> The *only* way a Ferrari, *any* Ferrari would be cheaper to keep on
>>> the road than an S class Benz is if the Ferrari remains permanently
>>> parked in a garage and is never driven.
>>>
>>> Italian cars, of all varieties, are *the* most unreliable pieces of
>>> shit in existence, and owning one is about as economical as having a
>>> Heroin habit.
>>
>> **As is my mate's wife's S Class. He desperately doesn't want to buy
>> another Merc for her, but she loves that 3 pointed star. Wanker. FWIW:
>> Another mate's wife has a C Class, which has been back 6 times for the
>> same fault. That mate owns a Red Line ute. He can't understand the
>> attraction his wife has for the Merc either. Another wanker.
>
> <shrug>
>
> One thing I don't agree with Daryl about is his liking for Merecedes
> Benz cars. Their trucks are something else, and one of the best on the
> market in my opinion, but to me their cars are over rated and have a
> somewhat chequered reputation for reliability when they get older in my
> experience. Still, if they float other people's boats then more power to
> them.
>
> What I *don't* understand is why you keep referring to them in your
> promotion of all things Tesla as if they're in some way relevant because
> I can't see the link myself. Mercedes Benz is but one of the *many*
> manufacturers on this planet and you could pick any one of them to make
> comparisons with, but you keep running back to Benz as if there is no
> other brand to compare to and I just don't get that.

**The C200 is similar size, RWD and competes in the same market segment
as the Model 3.

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On 21/03/2023 10:28 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 21/3/2023 4:38 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 4:31 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 21/3/2023 3:25 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2023 10:37 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 6:56 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> **Maybe. We'll see. Either way, in 10 years, your choices will be:
>>>>>> BEV or fuel cell EV. Maybe PHEV. That's it. Unless you want a
>>>>>> Ferrari or Lambo, which will, of course, be a hybrid anyway. Your
>>>>>> next NEW car WILL have batteries. Guaranteed.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was what the Europeans had in mind, but the Germans have
>>>>> vetoed it.
>>>>
>>>> **Have they? Which Germans would that be?
>>>
>>> Most likely the German Govt.
>>
>> **Cite.
>
> See below.
>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.bmw.com/en-au/discover/electromobility/plug-in-hybrids.html
>>>>
>>>> So, not BMW.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.volkswagen.com.au/en/hybrid-and-electric/hybrid-range.html
>>>>
>>>> So, not VW.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.mercedes-benz.com.au/passengercars/mercedes-benz-cars/models/eq/eq-power.html
>>>>
>>>> So, not Mercedes Benz.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.porsche.com/australia/models/cayenne/cayenne-models/cayenne-e-hybrid/
>>>>
>>>> So, not Porsche.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.audi.com.au/au/web/en/model-range/plug-in-hybrid.html
>>>>
>>>> So, not Audi.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.opel.ie/e-mobility/e-models.html
>>>>
>>>> So, not Opel.
>>>>
>>>> Those are the big guys. I can't be bothered checking the little guys.
>>>
>>> Don't know what any of the above has got to do with a decision of the
>>> German Govt?
>>
>> **The German government doesn't build cars that people buy. The guys
>> who build cars are putting batteries in their cars.
>
> So what, they don't just sell cars in Germany, they would be pretty
> stupid to only make cars for one market.

**Exactly. In any case, are you suggesting that Germans don't buy
hybrids and EVs?

> Did you read Keith's post or understand what he was saying?

**I did. And, I will say again: The German government does not build cars.

> What he implied was that the Germans (Govt) vetoed the European Unions
> plan to ban new fossil fueled cars by 2035, the link below confirms it.

**Sure.

>>
>>> https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-delays-vote-combustion-engine-phaseout-after-german-pushback-2023-03-03/
>>> Reading that makes me think that the Germans are smarter than many
>>> other countries who are behaving like sheep without putting much
>>> thought into what they are doing.
>>>
>>
>> **Nope. Just shifting the deck chairs.
>
> You obviously didn't read the article in the link, the Germans seem to
> be committed to zero emissions as much as anyone else but it seems that
> they aren't stupid enough to put all their eggs in the one basket like
> so many other sheep.

**Nope. That's not the reason at all. The Germans have fucked themselves
WRT energy supplies.

> For example Porsche are well on the way to developing synthetic fuels,
> the development has come far enough to allow it be used in a European
> Porsche race series later this year and the emissions from it are zero.

**Synthetic fuels are not new. They were invented in the early years of
the 20th century. The Nazis used them. They may extend the life of ICE
cars. A bit.

> Still a long way from mass production but it proves that it can be done
> and that there are alternatives, imagine a zero emissions vehicle that
> can be refueled as quickly as any ICE car instead of wasting many hours
> waiting for a battery to charge.

**Synthetic fuels will be a lot more expensive than fossil fuels, until
fossil fuels are taxed out of existence. Then, of course, is the energy
required to make them.

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On 22/03/2023 8:32 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 5:06 pm, Keithr0 wrote:

>> One thing that I've never seen is a Tesla with a towbar.
>>
>
> **I've never seen any of the following cars with towbars either:
> Any model Porsche

Here:

> https://www.flickr.com/photos/charlie59/12191981613

> Any model Ferrari

Here:

> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqqmvESVoAAWEP8?format=jpg&name=900x900

> Any model Lambo

Here:

> https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Huracan-Urus-0-1024x554.jpeg

> Any AMG

And here:

> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cmLOCOnx9aA/maxresdefault.jpg

> I can't say that I've ever seen a Merc (any model) with a towbar, but
> I'm sure some exist.

Indeed they do.

Seek and ye shall find as they say. That you're not aware of them
doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means you're ignorant.

--
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Regards,
Noddy.

On 22/3/2023 8:36 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 4:03 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 21/3/2023 3:10 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 19/03/2023 10:55 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 19/3/2023 9:08 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 9:56 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/3/2023 7:56 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 5:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 18/3/2023 3:55 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 9:57 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 18/3/2023 7:09 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 17/03/2023 10:50 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The price which is more than double what they are worth is
>>>>>>>>>>>> also a big turn off.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> **That is probably the nuttiest comment you've ever made (and
>>>>>>>>>>> you've made some real clangers). Justify your claim.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  From what I've seen of a model 3 they are very ordinary cars
>>>>>>>>>> (looks, fit and finish) and are in the same class/size of car
>>>>>>>>>> as a Corolla/Mazda3/i30 etc yet they are approx double the
>>>>>>>>>> price, the Corolla's etc have an estimated usable life span of
>>>>>>>>>> approx 20yrs whereas the Model 3 about half of that which
>>>>>>>>>> makes the Model 3 a very poor value proposition which is why I
>>>>>>>>>> said their price is double what they are worth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Points:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * I've seen two Model 3s up close and personal. The first was a
>>>>>>>>> US built model and was OK. The second was a Chinese built model
>>>>>>>>> and was easily as well put together as a
>>>>>>>>> Toyota/Nissan/Mercedes/whatever. Not up to Lexus standards, but
>>>>>>>>> nothing is.
>>>>>>>>> * Internal space of the Model 3 is SUBSTANTIALLY greater than a
>>>>>>>>> Corolla. It's more like Camry, space-wise. These guys think so
>>>>>>>>> too:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla/model-3
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The Tesla's low, flat floor makes for a spacious and airy feel
>>>>>>>>> inside."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a bit like when I compared the Mercedes A Class wagon to
>>>>>>>>> my Subaru Levorg. The A Class wagon, despite having similar
>>>>>>>>> external dimensions to the Suby, felt coffin-like inside. The
>>>>>>>>> Model 3 provides an astonishing feeling of spaciousness.
>>>>>>>>> * We'll see what resale prices are like down the track. For me,
>>>>>>>>> resale is the last thing I worry about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Your claim of "double what they are worth" requires some back
>>>>>>>>> up. Back your claim with data. Let's compare a Tesla with an
>>>>>>>>> equivalent Mercedes EV and see what happens.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You stated that the Porsche Taycan is $300k, yet you state
>>>>>>>>>>> that the MUCH less expensive, Tesla is too expensive?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They are both stupidly expensive, I never said or implied
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise.
>>>>>>>>>> The Taycan is much better looking and much better built than
>>>>>>>>>> any Tesla but that doesn't justify its crazy price.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> **Yet you continue to claim that the Tesla is "double what they
>>>>>>>>> are worth" compared to other EVs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope those are your words not mine, I wasn't comparing a Tesla
>>>>>>>> to another EV, I was comparing it to a normal car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **The Tesla *IS* a normal car. It just happens to be powered by
>>>>>>> electricity. Moreover, in less than 10 years, you will have to
>>>>>>> look real hard to buy a car that runs on fossil fuels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Curious.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Not at all. You were claiming that Tesla (specifically) was
>>>>>>> "double what they are worth". I showed you that you lied.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fucking bullshit you did, I proved that I was right, you just have
>>>>>> your head stuck so far up your arse you won't admit that you are
>>>>>> wrong.
>>>>>> You even helped me prove my point when you mentioned that Tesla
>>>>>> was making a big profit on each car.
>>>>>
>>>>> **Not at all. Tesla make a shit load of money from each car they
>>>>> build for a variety of reasons. However, as long as people are
>>>>> willing to pay, they will sell them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for yuks, I compared the Tesla Model 3 to it's nearest ICE
>>>>> competitor - the Mercedes C Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> The C200 is roughly the same size as the Tesla Model 3 (though the
>>>>> Merc carries slightly less luggage (445L vs. 561L) and costs $79k,
>>>>> compared to the Tesla's $64k. The Tesla is quicker to 100kph, at
>>>>> 6.1 secs vs. the Merc's 7.3 secs.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, a win for the Tesla.
>>>>>
>>>>> We move up to the C300. The C300 is slightly quicker to 100kph at
>>>>> 6.0 secs. However, the C300 comes in at $93.5k!
>>>>>
>>>>> Now it gets real interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> We move to the C63 AMG. A beast by any conventional measure. $135k.
>>>>> RWD. Expensive and, by all reports, a great drive. Tesla responds
>>>>> with the Model 3 Performance. AWD, 3.3 seconds to 100kph and costs
>>>>> $91k. Quicker, safer and carries more luggage.
>>>>>
>>>>> So much for your stupid claim about Teslas being "double what they are
>>>>
>>>> LOL, what an utterly ridiculous comparison, you are comparing a low
>>>> quality basic car like the Model 3 to a high end quality car like
>>>> the MB:-)
>>>
>>> **In what way/s do you imagine that the Tesla Model 3 is inferior to
>>> the C200 Benz?
>>
>> Its ugly as a hat full of arseholes.
>> Its dash looks like a video game designed by a teenager on hard drugs.
>> Its interior is very very plain and cheap looking.
>>>
>>> The Tesla offers more interior and boot space.
>>> Equivalent levels of safety.
>>> RWD.
>>> Slightly more performance.
>>> Equivalent levels of fit and finish (Lexus is better than both brands).
>>
>> Not the ones I've seen, they look cheap.
>
> **Look harder. I've been in Mercs (lots) and I've been in Teslas (2).
> The Teslas certainly look spartan, but not cheap.
>
>>
>>> Lower running costs.
>>
>> Over what period, extend the period to 10yrs when the battery will be
>> starting to fail then compare overall running costs, the amount saved
>> in petrol and servicing will be peanuts compared to replacing a battery.
>
> **So you say. I demonstrated that you could buy TWO new battery packs
> for the price difference between the Merc and the Tesla. Either way,
> rebuilding battery packs is certain do-able and is being done. There is
> usually no need to replac e
>
>>>
>>>> A Model 3 is better compared to a Corolla etc but even then the
>>>> Tesla's build quality is sub standard compared to the Toyota, the
>>>> Toyota will still be as good as new in 20yrs and the Tesla will have
>>>> been crushed for scrap long ago.
>>>
>>> **Why the fuck would you compare a MUCH smaller, FWD car to a Tesla
>>> Model 3?
>>
>> Because its not much smaller, Model 3 4694mm long, 1849 wide
>> (excluding mirrors), Corolla 4630mm long, 1780mm wide, it is smaller
>> but not by a significant amount, as for FWD vs RWD the vast majority
>> of drivers either don't know the difference or don't care.
>
> **The Model 3 is slightly larger than the more expensive C200. It is way
> larger than a Corolla. And it is RWD.

On 22/03/2023 8:36 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 4:03 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> Not the ones I've seen, they look cheap.
>
> **Look harder. I've been in Mercs (lots) and I've been in Teslas (2).
> The Teslas certainly look spartan, but not cheap.

You're clearly caught in the headlights of being in your favourite car
and not seeing things clearly.

Have *another* look. Tesla's not only have a ridiculously spartan
interior, but the fit & finish is *appalling*. Seat leather is okay, but
the rest of it feels terrible. The plastics feel like they came from
K-Mart and look like they were fitted in a sheltered workshop, the
rubbers don't fit properly, door gaps are horrible, etc. The fit &
finish is on a par of that with your average kit car.

The American ones are *way* worse :)

>> Over what period, extend the period to 10yrs when the battery will be
>> starting to fail then compare overall running costs, the amount saved
>> in petrol and servicing will be peanuts compared to replacing a battery.
>
> **So you say. I demonstrated that you could buy TWO new battery packs
> for the price difference between the Merc and the Tesla.

I must have blinked and missed that :) How much is a new battery pack
for a "3", Trev?
> Either way, rebuilding battery packs is certain do-able and is being
done. There is
> usually no need to replace

Okay. So if I had a Tesla 3 today and it had a battery issue, where
would I go to have the battery "rebuilt", and how much would it cost?

>> Because its not much smaller, Model 3 4694mm long, 1849 wide
>> (excluding mirrors), Corolla 4630mm long, 1780mm wide, it is smaller
>> but not by a significant amount, as for FWD vs RWD the vast majority
>> of drivers either don't know the difference or don't care.
>
> **The Model 3 is slightly larger than the more expensive C200. It is way
> larger than a Corolla. And it is RWD.

Given the popularity of FWD cars, I'd happily bet the farm on the fact
that the number of people who buy a Tesla because it's RWD is remarkably
small.

>> Yep, same as the Model 3 vs the MB, a different market segment
>> altogether.
>
> **So you claim, yet the Model 3 is competitive in every area with the C200.

Competitive with the Mazda 6 Sport as well, which is half the price of a
Tesla 3, but you completely ignore that. Right?

>> Much much less in fact, the MB take 5mins to refuel, the Telsa at
>> least 10 times longer at best so no contest.
>
> **The same can be said of any petrol or Diesel car.

What the fuck? :)

> I could also say that, if an owner has a Solar PV array on his/her garage roof, then
> charging the Tesla would be totally free.

Not unless:

(a) You have an awfully big solar system

(b) You never run your Tesla battery down much lower that 60% of it's
capacity, and

(c) You leave your Tesla parked up in the garage when the sun is
shining, which is precisely the time when the overwhelming majority of
people are out driving.

If any one of these conditions doesn't apply to you, then you'll be
charging your mobile blender through the wall socket like everyone else.

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--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 22/3/2023 8:39 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 5:16 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 5:06 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2023 3:15 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Another YouTuber in the UK PetrolPed did a test using a BEV BMW SUV
>>>> to tow a caravan with similar results, whilst it towed the caravan
>>>> effortlessly the range was appalling.
>>>> Weight and cold temps kills battery range and there is no getting
>>>> around that fact.
>>>
>>> One thing that I've never seen is a Tesla with a towbar.
>>
>> You're probably not likely to either.
>>
>>
>
> **Quite so. They are well hidden:
>
> https://shop.tesla.com/en_au/product/model-y-tow-package
>
On some MB models and other Euro cars towbars are also hidden, I've seen
one MB where the towbar appears at the press of a button.
They are even called an "invisible" towbar.
https://etowbars.com/au/Towbars/Mercedes/Class-C/06-2000-2007/Mercedes-WS-203-Invisible-Towbar_-1
I think I have seen a towbar on a Tesla but I have also seen a towbar on
a Toyota Yaris, I wouldn't bother with either.

--
Daryl

On 22/3/2023 8:42 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 3:47 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 21/3/2023 2:01 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 19/03/2023 6:05 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/2023 8:08 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just for yuks, I compared the Tesla Model 3 to it's nearest ICE
>>>>> competitor - the Mercedes C Class.
>>>>>
>>>>> The C200 is roughly the same size as the Tesla Model 3 (though the
>>>>> Merc carries slightly less luggage (445L vs. 561L) and costs $79k,
>>>>> compared to the Tesla's $64k. The Tesla is quicker to 100kph, at
>>>>> 6.1 secs vs. the Merc's 7.3 secs.
>>>>
>>>> Why are you so hung up on the 0-100 times, hardly anybody (other
>>>> than a teenager in a stolen car) does that anyway.
>>>
>>> **I'm not. However, I listed a number of factors that allowed
>>> comparison of the Tesla to the C Class Merc (though the Tesla is
>>> slightly bigger in some areas). Both vehicles:
>>>
>>> * Are RWD
>>> * Seat five in comfort
>>> * Carry 455L (Merc) and 561L of stuff in the boot
>>> * Have reasonable performance (rather more spectacular in the case of
>>> the AMG Merc and the high end Tesla)
>>>
>>> I dunno about you, but find having a reasonable level of performance
>>> allows for far more relaxed driving, as overtaking can be managed
>>> easily.
>>>
>>>
>>>   There is a good reason why
>>>> you wouldn't especially in an electric car. Don't know about your
>>>> cars, but my Mazda 3 can show instantaneous fuel consumption.
>>>> According to the specs it can do 0-100 in 8 seconds (it has the 2.5
>>>> litre engine) but if I mash the throttle to the floor from
>>>> standstill it will show 40+l/100km in a car 400Kg lighter than the
>>>> Tesla 3.
>>>
>>> **Fuel economy in an ICE is truly horrible when you jam your foot to
>>> the floor. No doubt about it. My last few cars have provided
>>> instantaneous fuel consumption and it a sobering experience to watch.
>>>
>>> Here's the thing though: That horrible fuel economy begins when you
>>> start the engine from cold. For a few minutes fuel economy is also
>>> stunningly bad. The numbers suggest that when driven cold and/or very
>>> hard, the efficiency of an ICE engine falls to around 5%.
>>>
>>> In an EV, motor efficiency never falls much below 85 ~ 90%. I'd be
>>> far more concerned about tyres. EVs are no different to ICE cars at
>>> high speeds. More electricity will be need to overcome drag in the
>>> same way more petrol will be needed in an ICE car.
>>>
>>>   No big deal for me, there are
>>>> dozens of servos where I can fill up and be on my way in 5 minutes.
>>>> A bit different in a Tesla though, you've just blown a fair bit of
>>>> your range, there are a lot less places to "Fill up" and it will
>>>> take a fair bit longer than 5 minutes to do so.
>>>
>>> **I'll challenge that claim. In fact, since the Tesla does accelerate
>>> rather quickly, you'll reach the desired speed more quickly (all at
>>> more than 90% efficiency). As for filling up, H2 fuel cell EVs will
>>> deal with most of the problem.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When it comes down to it what difference is it going to make to your
>>>> life being able to chop 1.9 seconds off the time to 100km/hr for
>>>> double the price of a Mazda 3?
>>>
>>> **I have no idea why you would compare a MUCH larger, RWD car to a
>>> Mazda 3. Mercedes and BMW (and Lexus) are pretty much the only RWD
>>> car makers around today. THEY are the competition for Tesla, not the
>>> much smaller, FWD and slower Mazda 3.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 0-100 times are click bait, salesman's patter to interest the husband.
>>>
>>> **I rather like having a car that can accelerate quickly. It can come
>>> in handy.
>>>
>>>> I'd lay odds that it doesn't make a significant difference to the
>>>> buying decision in 99% of cases,
>>>
>>> **I call 'bullshit' on that claim. When I see just how many AMGs
>>> Mercedes Benz sell:
>>>
>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/2020-mercedes-amg-sales-running-hot-in-australia-following-a35-a45-s-glc43-cla35-and-cla45
>>>
>>> TWENTY ONE PERCENT of all Mercs sold are AMG variants. Do you
>>> seriously think that those AMG buyers have no interest in
>>> accelerating quickly?
>>>
>>>   the main reason that people buy Teslas is that
>>>> they are fashionable, and they can boast about their green credentials.
>>>
>>> **AND:
>>>
>>> * Tesla cars are well sorted
>>> * Most Tesla models are quick
>>> * Tesla cars are well priced
>>
>> Well priced, you must be joking?
>
> **Nope. They are competitive with other BEVs and VERY competitive with
> brands like Mercedes Benz.
>
>> The best selling cars are in the low $30k price range, a Model 3 cost
>> more than double that, you have totally lost the plot if you think
>> that any Tesla is "well priced", IMHO a more reasonable price for a
>> Model 3 would be mid $40k's.
>
> **Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
> over-priced.

Over priced for sure but not obscenely so but its not an ugly appliance
like the Model 3.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> People buy Fords, Mazdas, Hyundais etc because they want reliable
>>>> transport at a reasonable price, people buy Mercs, BMWs, Volvos etc
>>>> because they think that their cars say something about their success
>>>> in life, Teslas are no different.
>>>
>>> **Maybe.
>>
>> No maybe about it, a Tesla is a lifestyle choice, you just have to
>> talk to the "look at me I'm wonderful" types that mostly buy them,
>> they certainly are out of the new car price range of the average person.
>
> **Possibly. I don't know how much "the average person" spends on a car.

Easy to work out by looking at the most popular cars over the last 10yrs
or so, by fat the most popular cars are in the Corolla/Mazda 3/i30
segment and they are priced around $30k for the most popular models.
The average price people pay for cars has gone up mainly due to inflated
EV prices.
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> PS. Tesla's "Autopilot" is a POS it seems to regularly kill those
>>>> who trust it (I don't think that it's even legal here).
>>>
>>> **Of course it's not legal in Australia.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I hope that it never is.
>
> **It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.

Unlikely in our lifetime but very likely at some time in the distant future.

--
Daryl

On 22/03/2023 8:42 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 3:47 pm, Daryl wrote:

>>>   the main reason that people buy Teslas is that
>>>> they are fashionable, and they can boast about their green credentials.
>>>
>>> **AND:
>>>
>>> * Tesla cars are well sorted
>>> * Most Tesla models are quick
>>> * Tesla cars are well priced
>>
>> Well priced, you must be joking?
>
> **Nope. They are competitive with other BEVs and VERY competitive with
> brands like Mercedes Benz.

In *your* opinion, and you clearly need to be reminded that your opinion
is *not* fact :)

>> The best selling cars are in the low $30k price range, a Model 3 cost
>> more than double that, you have totally lost the plot if you think
>> that any Tesla is "well priced", IMHO a more reasonable price for a
>> Model 3 would be mid $40k's.
>
> **Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
> over-priced.

I'm not sure that Daryl does, but I certainly do. Like Tesla's, I think
Mercedes Benz cars are over rated and over priced.

>> No maybe about it, a Tesla is a lifestyle choice, you just have to
>> talk to the "look at me I'm wonderful" types that mostly buy them,
>> they certainly are out of the new car price range of the average person.
>
> **Possibly. I don't know how much "the average person" spends on a car.

Strange. You seem to know all the reasons why the average person buys a
Tesla. Odd that you could be as vague as this when it comes to budget.

>> I hope that it never is.
>
> **It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.

Yet *another* example of you citing opinion as if it's been through
Parliament and is enacted as law.

You're really good at this :)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 22/03/2023 9:33 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 8:32 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 5:06 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>
>>> One thing that I've never seen is a Tesla with a towbar.
>>>
>>
>> **I've never seen any of the following cars with towbars either:
>> Any model Porsche
>
> Here:
>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/charlie59/12191981613
>
>> Any model Ferrari
>
> Here:
>
>> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqqmvESVoAAWEP8?format=jpg&name=900x900
>
>> Any model Lambo
>
> Here:
>
>> https://www.carscoops.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Huracan-Urus-0-1024x554.jpeg
>
>> Any AMG
>
> And here:
>
>> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cmLOCOnx9aA/maxresdefault.jpg
>
>> I can't say that I've ever seen a Merc (any model) with a towbar, but
>> I'm sure some exist.
>
> Indeed they do.
>
> Seek and ye shall find as they say. That you're not aware of them
> doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means you're ignorant.
>

**Points:

* Yep, same as anyone who claims that they have never seen one on a Tesla.
* I NEVER claimed that they don't exist on the cars listed, just that I
have never seen one.

--
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On 22/03/2023 9:53 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 22/3/2023 8:42 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 3:47 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 21/3/2023 2:01 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 19/03/2023 6:05 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> On 19/03/2023 8:08 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for yuks, I compared the Tesla Model 3 to it's nearest ICE
>>>>>> competitor - the Mercedes C Class.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The C200 is roughly the same size as the Tesla Model 3 (though the
>>>>>> Merc carries slightly less luggage (445L vs. 561L) and costs $79k,
>>>>>> compared to the Tesla's $64k. The Tesla is quicker to 100kph, at
>>>>>> 6.1 secs vs. the Merc's 7.3 secs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why are you so hung up on the 0-100 times, hardly anybody (other
>>>>> than a teenager in a stolen car) does that anyway.
>>>>
>>>> **I'm not. However, I listed a number of factors that allowed
>>>> comparison of the Tesla to the C Class Merc (though the Tesla is
>>>> slightly bigger in some areas). Both vehicles:
>>>>
>>>> * Are RWD
>>>> * Seat five in comfort
>>>> * Carry 455L (Merc) and 561L of stuff in the boot
>>>> * Have reasonable performance (rather more spectacular in the case
>>>> of the AMG Merc and the high end Tesla)
>>>>
>>>> I dunno about you, but find having a reasonable level of performance
>>>> allows for far more relaxed driving, as overtaking can be managed
>>>> easily.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   There is a good reason why
>>>>> you wouldn't especially in an electric car. Don't know about your
>>>>> cars, but my Mazda 3 can show instantaneous fuel consumption.
>>>>> According to the specs it can do 0-100 in 8 seconds (it has the 2.5
>>>>> litre engine) but if I mash the throttle to the floor from
>>>>> standstill it will show 40+l/100km in a car 400Kg lighter than the
>>>>> Tesla 3.
>>>>
>>>> **Fuel economy in an ICE is truly horrible when you jam your foot to
>>>> the floor. No doubt about it. My last few cars have provided
>>>> instantaneous fuel consumption and it a sobering experience to watch.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the thing though: That horrible fuel economy begins when you
>>>> start the engine from cold. For a few minutes fuel economy is also
>>>> stunningly bad. The numbers suggest that when driven cold and/or
>>>> very hard, the efficiency of an ICE engine falls to around 5%.
>>>>
>>>> In an EV, motor efficiency never falls much below 85 ~ 90%. I'd be
>>>> far more concerned about tyres. EVs are no different to ICE cars at
>>>> high speeds. More electricity will be need to overcome drag in the
>>>> same way more petrol will be needed in an ICE car.
>>>>
>>>>   No big deal for me, there are
>>>>> dozens of servos where I can fill up and be on my way in 5 minutes.
>>>>> A bit different in a Tesla though, you've just blown a fair bit of
>>>>> your range, there are a lot less places to "Fill up" and it will
>>>>> take a fair bit longer than 5 minutes to do so.
>>>>
>>>> **I'll challenge that claim. In fact, since the Tesla does
>>>> accelerate rather quickly, you'll reach the desired speed more
>>>> quickly (all at more than 90% efficiency). As for filling up, H2
>>>> fuel cell EVs will deal with most of the problem.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When it comes down to it what difference is it going to make to
>>>>> your life being able to chop 1.9 seconds off the time to 100km/hr
>>>>> for double the price of a Mazda 3?
>>>>
>>>> **I have no idea why you would compare a MUCH larger, RWD car to a
>>>> Mazda 3. Mercedes and BMW (and Lexus) are pretty much the only RWD
>>>> car makers around today. THEY are the competition for Tesla, not the
>>>> much smaller, FWD and slower Mazda 3.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 0-100 times are click bait, salesman's patter to interest the husband.
>>>>
>>>> **I rather like having a car that can accelerate quickly. It can
>>>> come in handy.
>>>>
>>>>> I'd lay odds that it doesn't make a significant difference to the
>>>>> buying decision in 99% of cases,
>>>>
>>>> **I call 'bullshit' on that claim. When I see just how many AMGs
>>>> Mercedes Benz sell:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/2020-mercedes-amg-sales-running-hot-in-australia-following-a35-a45-s-glc43-cla35-and-cla45
>>>>
>>>> TWENTY ONE PERCENT of all Mercs sold are AMG variants. Do you
>>>> seriously think that those AMG buyers have no interest in
>>>> accelerating quickly?
>>>>
>>>>   the main reason that people buy Teslas is that
>>>>> they are fashionable, and they can boast about their green
>>>>> credentials.
>>>>
>>>> **AND:
>>>>
>>>> * Tesla cars are well sorted
>>>> * Most Tesla models are quick
>>>> * Tesla cars are well priced
>>>
>>> Well priced, you must be joking?
>>
>> **Nope. They are competitive with other BEVs and VERY competitive with
>> brands like Mercedes Benz.
>>
>>> The best selling cars are in the low $30k price range, a Model 3 cost
>>> more than double that, you have totally lost the plot if you think
>>> that any Tesla is "well priced", IMHO a more reasonable price for a
>>> Model 3 would be mid $40k's.
>>
>> **Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
>> over-priced.
>
> Over priced for sure but not obscenely so but its not an ugly appliance
> like the Model 3.

**Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Mercs are getting uglier by the
day. The SL still looks nice though.

>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> People buy Fords, Mazdas, Hyundais etc because they want reliable
>>>>> transport at a reasonable price, people buy Mercs, BMWs, Volvos etc
>>>>> because they think that their cars say something about their
>>>>> success in life, Teslas are no different.
>>>>
>>>> **Maybe.
>>>
>>> No maybe about it, a Tesla is a lifestyle choice, you just have to
>>> talk to the "look at me I'm wonderful" types that mostly buy them,
>>> they certainly are out of the new car price range of the average person.
>>
>> **Possibly. I don't know how much "the average person" spends on a car.
>
> Easy to work out by looking at the most popular cars over the last 10yrs
> or so, by fat the most popular cars are in the Corolla/Mazda 3/i30
> segment and they are priced around $30k for the most popular models.

**Here are the best selling cars in Australia today:

https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/top-10-best-selling-cars-australia-2023-vfacts

> The average price people pay for cars has gone up mainly due to inflated
> EV prices.

**Prove it. In your proof, you may care to note the two most popular cars.

>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> PS. Tesla's "Autopilot" is a POS it seems to regularly kill those
>>>>> who trust it (I don't think that it's even legal here).
>>>>
>>>> **Of course it's not legal in Australia.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I hope that it never is.
>>
>> **It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.
>
> Unlikely in our lifetime but very likely at some time in the distant
> future.

**Don't bet on it.

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Trevor Wilson <trevor@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 5:16 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 5:06 pm, Keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2023 3:15 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>> Another YouTuber in the UK PetrolPed did a test using a BEV BMW SUV
>>>> to tow a caravan with similar results, whilst it towed the caravan
>>>> effortlessly the range was appalling.
>>>> Weight and cold temps kills battery range and there is no getting
>>>> around that fact.
>>>
>>> One thing that I've never seen is a Tesla with a towbar.
>>
>> You're probably not likely to either.
>>
>>
>
> **Quite so. They are well hidden:
>
> https://shop.tesla.com/en_au/product/model-y-tow-package
>

Darren, shot down in flames-again. This is getting habit forming for him.

____
Xeno

On 22/03/2023 9:22 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 3:50 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> Time will tell. ICE's have done pretty well over the last 100 odd
>> years, and despite all the hype from the bleeding hear tree huggers
>> they're not going away any time soon.
>
> **Yes, they are. Unless they are part of a hybrid system anyway.

2030 is the cited as the "tipping point" if you will that you and others
have claimed as the period when regular ICE powered cars will be a thing
of the past. That's just over 7 years from now. Hopefully you and I will
still be here by then to see how inaccurate your predictions are.

I believe Hybrids will certainly become more common with most
manufacturers making them available as part of their range, but they
won't be completely replacing conventional ICE powered cars as we know
them today. Not for some time in fact.

>> And you'd *still* be wrong. In "less than ten years" it will not be at
>> all difficult to buy a new fossil fuelled vehicle. 2030 is under 8
>> years away, and the world ain't going to make that kind of paradigm
>> shift in that amount of time.
>
> **Don't count on it. ALL cars will be BEVs, H2 fuel cell EVs and/or some
> kind of hybrid.

Not by 2030 they won't. The EV craze is still in it's infancy, and it is
a *long* way from being the mainstream norm.

Even Mercedes, with their hero AMG has moved already:
>
> https://www.mercedes-amg.com/en/vehicles/c-class/sedan.html
>
> What was once a 6.3L V8 (with a friggin' awesome soundtrack), now comes
> with a 4 cylinder engine supplemented by BEV power.

You really have a serious weed up your arse about Mercedes, huh? What
happened? Did they knock you back for credit or something?

>>> **Sure and the vast majority will have a battery/electric motor to
>>> supplement the motive force.
>>
>> Some might. We'll have to wait and see. I suspect that not all will.
>> Not even close to all.
>
> **With the possible exception of the very, VERY low end of the market,
> perhaps. Everything else will be battery/electric.

Really?

So tell me. Given that *the* most popular class of vehicle on the market
today is the diesel powered dual cab ute, and given that the
overwhelming majority of them come with 3.5 tonne towing capacities
which, believe it or not a great many people do actually use to tow
their caravans or boats or what have you, how are manufacturers going to
come up with a viable hybrid alternative that would be capable of
performing in that role?

Now, before you fire off claims of the Porsche Cayenne having a Hybrid
model that has a 3.5 tonne towing capacity in claiming that it's
"doable", I'd remind you that the Cayenne Hybrid is a 175 thousand buck
car that is just a *tad* out of the range of your average Toyota Hilux
or Ford Ranger buyer. Doable for luxury SUV's, certainly, but for
everyday family dual cab utes remarkably less so.

>>> **OK. I'll accept that Dazza's opinion has not been proven and was
>>> rooted in ignorance.
>>
>> Accept whatever you like, but his opinion that Tesla's are an over
>> priced car, which is one I happen to agree with, is no more or less
>> rooted in ignorance than your opinion that Aluminium-Ion batteries
>> will revolutionise the Electric Car industry.
>>
>> It is an opinion that you happen to believe to be true, despite you
>> not ever having offered a single thing to support it.
>
> **Huh? reading is not your greatest ability then? I've cited evidence
> many times:
>
> https://graphenemg.com/
>
> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fchem.2019.00268/full
>
> I readily acknowledge that Al-Ion batteries are not ready yet.

And that would be a first :)

You have made *many* claims that they *will* change the game, despite
them never having progressed past the lab testing stage. In fact, this
is one of the things you do really well in that you make predictions of
fact based on technology that has yet to emerge beyond the trial phase.

When they're here and they prove themselves to work *then* you can call
them a game changer. Until then they're just a promising idea.

>> You pointed to *one* car, which had nothing whatsoever to do with how
>> people perceive Teslas.
>
> **Wrong. I cited THREE cars.

Did you? What were the other two? All I saw you mention was a C class Benz.
>>> **I've CLOSELY examined a couple of Model 3 cars. I've ridden in a
>>> late model one. VERY, VERY impressive performance, silence and
>>> spacious interior.
>>
>> Right. So you're no more of an "expert" about them than anyone else here.
>>
>> Noted :)
>
> **I never claimed to be one. Have you ridden in a Tesla Model 3?
>
> I have.

So have I. My "experience" with them is no more or less than yours.

Incidentally, what the *fuck* is with that stupid-arsed push button
interior door handle? And you think Benz's are wanky? :)

>>> **I am not necessarily in favour of Teslas. I am pointing out the
>>> errors espoused by Dazza and others.
>>
>> Lol :)
>>
>> Someone is not in "error" just because they have an opinion you happen
>> to disagree with :)
>
> **Sure. However, Dazza WAS in error.

According to you. I don't think he was at all. The Tesla 3 is massively
over priced in my opinion.

>>> **As is my mate's wife's S Class. He desperately doesn't want to buy
>>> another Merc for her, but she loves that 3 pointed star. Wanker.
>>> FWIW: Another mate's wife has a C Class, which has been back 6 times
>>> for the same fault. That mate owns a Red Line ute. He can't
>>> understand the attraction his wife has for the Merc either. Another
>>> wanker.
>>
>> <shrug>
>>
>> One thing I don't agree with Daryl about is his liking for Merecedes
>> Benz cars. Their trucks are something else, and one of the best on the
>> market in my opinion, but to me their cars are over rated and have a
>> somewhat chequered reputation for reliability when they get older in
>> my experience. Still, if they float other people's boats then more
>> power to them.
>>
>> What I *don't* understand is why you keep referring to them in your
>> promotion of all things Tesla as if they're in some way relevant
>> because I can't see the link myself. Mercedes Benz is but one of the
>> *many* manufacturers on this planet and you could pick any one of them
>> to make comparisons with, but you keep running back to Benz as if
>> there is no other brand to compare to and I just don't get that.
>
> **The C200 is similar size, RWD and competes in the same market segment
> as the Model 3.

According to this site, this is the list of cars that compete directly
to the Tesla 3:

> https://www.thecarconnection.com/compare/tesla_model-3_2023_choices

Interesting to note that both the Hyundai Ioniq and the Kia EV6 having a
better overall score with the Hyundai being slightly cheaper on the
American market.

The point being that the only valid comparisons made here is with other
electric vehicles. If you're going to try to compare with conventional
vehicles then you may as well include whatever you like. However if
you're going to limit the choice based on ridiculous points such as when
end of the car has the driving wheels then it all gets a bit meaningless.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

Noddy <me@home.com> wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 8:42 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 3:47 pm, Daryl wrote:
>
>
>>>>   the main reason that people buy Teslas is that
>>>>> they are fashionable, and they can boast about their green credentials.
>>>>
>>>> **AND:
>>>>
>>>> * Tesla cars are well sorted
>>>> * Most Tesla models are quick
>>>> * Tesla cars are well priced
>>>
>>> Well priced, you must be joking?
>>
>> **Nope. They are competitive with other BEVs and VERY competitive with
>> brands like Mercedes Benz.
>
> In *your* opinion, and you clearly need to be reminded that your opinion
> is *not* fact :)

This from the clown who always treats his own, usually misguided, opinion
as fact. Darren, you’re funny.
>
>>> The best selling cars are in the low $30k price range, a Model 3 cost
>>> more than double that, you have totally lost the plot if you think
>>> that any Tesla is "well priced", IMHO a more reasonable price for a
>>> Model 3 would be mid $40k's.
>>
>> **Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
>> over-priced.
>
> I'm not sure that Daryl does, but I certainly do. Like Tesla's, I think
> Mercedes Benz cars are over rated and over priced.
>
>>> No maybe about it, a Tesla is a lifestyle choice, you just have to
>>> talk to the "look at me I'm wonderful" types that mostly buy them,
>>> they certainly are out of the new car price range of the average person.

What? Have you looked at new car prices lately? Any new car? A typical SUV
is close to the base Tesla price and the SUV will cost a motsa in fuel over
its lifespan whereas the EV running costs will be minimal if you charge
from solar.
>>
>> **Possibly. I don't know how much "the average person" spends on a car.
>
> Strange. You seem to know all the reasons why the average person buys a
> Tesla. Odd that you could be as vague as this when it comes to budget.
>
>>> I hope that it never is.
>>
>> **It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.
>
> Yet *another* example of you citing opinion as if it's been through
> Parliament and is enacted as law.
>
> You're really good at this :)
>

Projection Darren

____
Xeno

On 22/03/2023 10:05 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 9:33 am, Noddy wrote:

>> Seek and ye shall find as they say. That you're not aware of them
>> doesn't mean they don't exist. It just means you're ignorant.
>>
>
> **Points:
>
> * Yep, same as anyone who claims that they have never seen one on a Tesla.
> * I NEVER claimed that they don't exist on the cars listed, just that I
> have never seen one.

Yeah, I think we've established that.

Just to add, with reference to "towing" and "Ferrari" this is the most
likely result of those two terms being used in the same sentence:

> https://dialatow.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/20150109_124418.jpg

:)

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 22/03/2023 10:09 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 9:53 am, Daryl wrote:

>>> **Then you must consider that a Mercedes C200 is utterly obscenely
>>> over-priced.
>>
>> Over priced for sure but not obscenely so but its not an ugly
>> appliance like the Model 3.
>
> **Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

It is indeed.
> Mercs are getting uglier by the day.

They certainly are, but then I wouldn't limit that fault to Mercedes
alone. *All* cars are pretty ugly these days, with current styling
trends making me think that there is a secret competition between
manufacturers to see how ugly they can make cars today and get away with it.
> The SL still looks nice though.

To you perhaps. Not to me.

>>>>>> PS. Tesla's "Autopilot" is a POS it seems to regularly kill those
>>>>>> who trust it (I don't think that it's even legal here).
>>>>>
>>>>> **Of course it's not legal in Australia.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hope that it never is.
>>>
>>> **It, or something very much like it, almost certainly will be.
>>
>> Unlikely in our lifetime but very likely at some time in the distant
>> future.
>
> **Don't bet on it.

If you have any evidence to suggest that what you're claiming is likely
then I'd genuinely be delighted to see it, however in the absence of
that all you're doing here is speculating on what you *want* to be true,
and apart from that meaning nothing to anyone other than you it is no
guarantee of what the future will bring.

My belief, and I don't care one way or the other to be honest, is that
given the *very* chequered history that Tesla's autonomous driving
feature has had in the US, it will be some time indeed before it becomes
legal in this country. At least in it's present form.

This article here seems to support that view:

> https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/tough-road-ahead-self-driving-cars-are-taking-off-in-the-us-but-australians-might-be-waiting-a-while-yet/a5ebp93on

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 21/03/2023 10:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 21/3/2023 4:42 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 4:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 21/3/2023 3:19 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2023 10:27 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 7:56 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 5:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope those are your words not mine, I wasn't comparing a Tesla to
>>>>>>> another EV, I was comparing it to a normal car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **The Tesla *IS* a normal car. It just happens to be powered by
>>>>>> electricity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even close.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any logical sense, a "normal" car would be the type used in the
>>>>> last 100 years. Ie: powered by an internal combustion engine. EV's
>>>>> while not new in essence, are an emerging trend in the automotive
>>>>> world and are very definitely *not* the "norm" as we sit here today.
>>>>
>>>> **"Normal" is a relative term. Within a decades, ICE cars will be a
>>>> niche purchase.
>>>>
>>>>>   > Moreover, in less than 10 years, you will have to look real
>>>>>> hard to buy a car that runs on fossil fuels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Um, no. I'll have to do nothing more difficult to walk out into my
>>>>> workshop and pick which one I want to drive.
>>>>
>>>> **I should said: "...you will have to look real hard to buy a NEW
>>>> car that runs on fossil fuels."
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There will still be fossil fuelled vehicles on the market in ten
>>>>> years time....
>>>>
>>>> **Sure and the vast majority will have a battery/electric motor to
>>>> supplement the motive force.
>>>>
>>>>>> **Not at all. You were claiming that Tesla (specifically) was
>>>>>> "double what they are worth". I showed you that you lied.
>>>>>
>>>>> ROTFL :) You did no such thing at all :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to inject a bit of reality back into the conversation, he was
>>>>> giving his opinion, and that's not a "lie".
>>>>
>>>> **OK. I'll accept that Dazza's opinion has not been proven and was
>>>> rooted in ignorance.
>>>>
>>>>   Secondly, you did *nothing*
>>>>> to show that a Tesla is not a massively over priced vehicle of
>>>>> dubious quality by showing a list of other irrelevant vehicles with
>>>>> different price tags.
>>>>
>>>> **I showed other, similar sized cars.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why, when you compare a Tesla to a IC car they make zero economic
>>>>>>> sense, even the PHEV my mate's wife bought cost $23k more than
>>>>>>> the i30 its based on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **They might make zero economic sense to YOU. Or not. You don't
>>>>>> know. You are making unfounded assumptions, based on zero personal
>>>>>> knowledge and experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just out of curiosity here Trev, what exactly is *your* experience
>>>>> with Tesla's?
>>>>
>>>> **I've CLOSELY examined a couple of Model 3 cars. I've ridden in a
>>>> late model one. VERY, VERY impressive performance, silence and
>>>> spacious interior.
>>>>
>>>>   If the answer to that is "zero", then take a moment to explain
>>>>> why you think *your* argument in favour of things trumps anyone
>>>>> else's against them.
>>>>
>>>> **I am not necessarily in favour of Teslas. I am pointing out the
>>>> errors espoused by Dazza and others.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> You missed the point again, no one buys a Ferrari because its
>>>>>>> cheap to own and run and anyone who does is a fruit loop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Correct. In fact, one of my mates owns a Ferrari. His wife owns
>>>>>> an S-Class Benz. The Ferrari has been cheaper to keep on the road.
>>>>>> A Tesla would be cheaper again.
>>>>>
>>>>> The *only* way a Ferrari, *any* Ferrari would be cheaper to keep on
>>>>> the road than an S class Benz is if the Ferrari remains permanently
>>>>> parked in a garage and is never driven.
>>>>>
>>>>> Italian cars, of all varieties, are *the* most unreliable pieces of
>>>>> shit in existence, and owning one is about as economical as having
>>>>> a Heroin habit.
>>>>
>>>> **As is my mate's wife's S Class. He desperately doesn't want to buy
>>>> another Merc for her, but she loves that 3 pointed star. Wanker.
>>>
>>> Says the wanker that thinks an old Nissan is the ducks guts:-)
>>
>> **It cost me 5 Grand. I've owned it for 6 years and not only has it
>> been utterly reliable, but it's a whole bunch of fun to drive. Is it
>> the best car I've ever driven? Certainly not, but for 5 Grand it's
>> been brilliant.
>
> Same shit with my MB, in my experience its been as reliable as any of
> the 3 Toyota's I've owned, 2 of those were bought new, also equally
> reliable as any of the 3 new Subaru's we owned and put together with
> better quality materials than anything Japanese, for example the carpets
> are still like new whereas the Subaru carpets were starting to look
> scruffy after 5yrs.
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>   FWIW:
>>>> Another mate's wife has a C Class, which has been back 6 times for
>>>> the same fault.
>>>
>>> What fault?
>>>
>>>   That mate owns a Red Line ute.
>>>
>>> Whats a "Red Line" ute?
>>
>> **6.2 Litre Holden ute:
>>
>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/holden-ssv-redline-ute-59834
>
> Good luck to him, generally speaking they are much less reliable than
> most MB.
> Has he had to replace the cam and lifters yet or have the interior bits
> that keep falling off replaced?

**No idea. He mostly grumbles about his wife's Benz. I don't hear a
single word about his ute.

> Son's had a VE SS ute and he sold it before it completely feel to bits,
> went back to the dealer so many times under warranty to try and stop the
> glove box falling on the floor but they were never able to fix it.
> His brother in law had a slightly newer VE SS ute, at about 50,000km the
> engine started making all sorts of rattling noises which turned out to
> be failed valve lifters, it sat in his shed for a couple of years till
> he could afford to fix it.
> BTW was there really a fault with the MB that needed to go back to the
> dealer 6 times or did you just make that up, if you didn't tell us what
> the fault was.

**The Merc kept developing an annoying noise.

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
www.avast.com

On 22/3/2023 10:32 am, Noddy wrote:

> So tell me. Given that *the* most popular class of vehicle on the market
> today is the diesel powered dual cab ute, and given that the
> overwhelming majority of them come with 3.5 tonne towing capacities
> which, believe it or not a great many people do actually use to tow
> their caravans or boats or what have you, how are manufacturers going to
> come up with a viable hybrid alternative that would be capable of
> performing in that role?
>
> Now, before you fire off claims of the Porsche Cayenne having a Hybrid
> model that has a 3.5 tonne towing capacity in claiming that it's
> "doable", I'd remind you that the Cayenne Hybrid is a 175 thousand buck
> car that is just a *tad* out of the range of your average Toyota Hilux
> or Ford Ranger buyer. Doable for luxury SUV's, certainly, but for
> everyday family dual cab utes remarkably less so.

No EV can get anywhere near the range when towing so at this point in
time there is not a single EV that comes even slightly close to
replacing the best selling vehicles in this country.

--
Daryl

On 22/03/2023 11:39 am, Daryl wrote:
> On 22/3/2023 10:32 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>> So tell me. Given that *the* most popular class of vehicle on the
>> market today is the diesel powered dual cab ute, and given that the
>> overwhelming majority of them come with 3.5 tonne towing capacities
>> which, believe it or not a great many people do actually use to tow
>> their caravans or boats or what have you, how are manufacturers going
>> to come up with a viable hybrid alternative that would be capable of
>> performing in that role?
>>
>> Now, before you fire off claims of the Porsche Cayenne having a Hybrid
>> model that has a 3.5 tonne towing capacity in claiming that it's
>> "doable", I'd remind you that the Cayenne Hybrid is a 175 thousand
>> buck car that is just a *tad* out of the range of your average Toyota
>> Hilux or Ford Ranger buyer. Doable for luxury SUV's, certainly, but
>> for everyday family dual cab utes remarkably less so.
>
> No EV can get anywhere near the range when towing so at this point in
> time there is not a single EV that comes even slightly close to
> replacing the best selling vehicles in this country.

Full Electrics? No chance in hell. At least on today's technology.
Hybrids maybe, as they still have a conventional IC engine, but I'm more
concerned about how capable they would do the job when the battery is
flat and they have to reply purely on their ICE which in any hybrid is
significantly reduced in capacity and output compared to the
conventional ICE you'd find in a comparable conventional vehicle.

For example, the wife and I have a 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander.
Great vehicle that we both love. It has a 2.2l turbo diesel that makes
147kW @ 3800rpm and 440Nm @ 1750-2750rpm mated to an 8 speed auto with a
range of ratios that suit it pretty well, and it's a decent drive. It
has a 2 tonne braked towing capacity, and it performs in that role well.
I've been using it quite a bit lately since getting rid of the Navara a
few months ago.

Hyundai have a Hybrid version of the Santa Fe on the market in the
current model, and the vehicle itself isn't all that much different to
the previous model we have being much the same size and weight. However
the new Hybrid version has a turbo 1.6 litre petrol engine as it's main
motive force that makes 132kW @ 5500rpm and 265Nm at 1500-4500rpm. Quite
significantly lower output than the diesel and in a higher rev range.

The electric component of the Hybrid package boosts the output figures
to 169kW/350Nm, but interestingly it only has a 6 speed auto which takes
away a fair bit of functionality in terms of the number of available
ratios that can be used to keep the engine "on the boil" so to speak.

As a result of this the power to weight ratio drops from 75.6kW/t for
the turbo diesel, to 87.1kW/t for the Hybrid Petrol, and the towing
capacity drops from 2 tonne to 1650kg. That's an almost 20% reduction in
ability, and I can just imagine the screams of disapproval from ute
drivers if manufacturers try to pass that same metric off to dual cab
ute buyers.

The wife will probably want another car in a couple of years, and we'll
look at the Hybrid to see what it's like. But with a hit like that I'm
not sure we'll be buying one.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

On 22/03/2023 6:25 am, alvey wrote:
> Noddy <me@home.com> wrote in news:tvbq8t$1fk1$1@dont-email.me:
>
>
> waste of time & space
>
Self referential.

On 22/3/2023 11:24 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
> On 21/03/2023 10:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 21/3/2023 4:42 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2023 4:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 21/3/2023 3:19 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2023 10:27 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 7:56 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 5:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nope those are your words not mine, I wasn't comparing a Tesla
>>>>>>>> to another EV, I was comparing it to a normal car.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **The Tesla *IS* a normal car. It just happens to be powered by
>>>>>>> electricity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not even close.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In any logical sense, a "normal" car would be the type used in the
>>>>>> last 100 years. Ie: powered by an internal combustion engine. EV's
>>>>>> while not new in essence, are an emerging trend in the automotive
>>>>>> world and are very definitely *not* the "norm" as we sit here today.
>>>>>
>>>>> **"Normal" is a relative term. Within a decades, ICE cars will be a
>>>>> niche purchase.
>>>>>
>>>>>>   > Moreover, in less than 10 years, you will have to look real
>>>>>>> hard to buy a car that runs on fossil fuels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Um, no. I'll have to do nothing more difficult to walk out into my
>>>>>> workshop and pick which one I want to drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> **I should said: "...you will have to look real hard to buy a NEW
>>>>> car that runs on fossil fuels."
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There will still be fossil fuelled vehicles on the market in ten
>>>>>> years time....
>>>>>
>>>>> **Sure and the vast majority will have a battery/electric motor to
>>>>> supplement the motive force.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Not at all. You were claiming that Tesla (specifically) was
>>>>>>> "double what they are worth". I showed you that you lied.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ROTFL :) You did no such thing at all :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just to inject a bit of reality back into the conversation, he was
>>>>>> giving his opinion, and that's not a "lie".
>>>>>
>>>>> **OK. I'll accept that Dazza's opinion has not been proven and was
>>>>> rooted in ignorance.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Secondly, you did *nothing*
>>>>>> to show that a Tesla is not a massively over priced vehicle of
>>>>>> dubious quality by showing a list of other irrelevant vehicles
>>>>>> with different price tags.
>>>>>
>>>>> **I showed other, similar sized cars.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why, when you compare a Tesla to a IC car they make zero
>>>>>>>> economic sense, even the PHEV my mate's wife bought cost $23k
>>>>>>>> more than the i30 its based on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **They might make zero economic sense to YOU. Or not. You don't
>>>>>>> know. You are making unfounded assumptions, based on zero
>>>>>>> personal knowledge and experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just out of curiosity here Trev, what exactly is *your* experience
>>>>>> with Tesla's?
>>>>>
>>>>> **I've CLOSELY examined a couple of Model 3 cars. I've ridden in a
>>>>> late model one. VERY, VERY impressive performance, silence and
>>>>> spacious interior.
>>>>>
>>>>>   If the answer to that is "zero", then take a moment to explain
>>>>>> why you think *your* argument in favour of things trumps anyone
>>>>>> else's against them.
>>>>>
>>>>> **I am not necessarily in favour of Teslas. I am pointing out the
>>>>> errors espoused by Dazza and others.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You missed the point again, no one buys a Ferrari because its
>>>>>>>> cheap to own and run and anyone who does is a fruit loop.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> **Correct. In fact, one of my mates owns a Ferrari. His wife owns
>>>>>>> an S-Class Benz. The Ferrari has been cheaper to keep on the
>>>>>>> road. A Tesla would be cheaper again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The *only* way a Ferrari, *any* Ferrari would be cheaper to keep
>>>>>> on the road than an S class Benz is if the Ferrari remains
>>>>>> permanently parked in a garage and is never driven.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Italian cars, of all varieties, are *the* most unreliable pieces
>>>>>> of shit in existence, and owning one is about as economical as
>>>>>> having a Heroin habit.
>>>>>
>>>>> **As is my mate's wife's S Class. He desperately doesn't want to
>>>>> buy another Merc for her, but she loves that 3 pointed star. Wanker.
>>>>
>>>> Says the wanker that thinks an old Nissan is the ducks guts:-)
>>>
>>> **It cost me 5 Grand. I've owned it for 6 years and not only has it
>>> been utterly reliable, but it's a whole bunch of fun to drive. Is it
>>> the best car I've ever driven? Certainly not, but for 5 Grand it's
>>> been brilliant.
>>
>> Same shit with my MB, in my experience its been as reliable as any of
>> the 3 Toyota's I've owned, 2 of those were bought new, also equally
>> reliable as any of the 3 new Subaru's we owned and put together with
>> better quality materials than anything Japanese, for example the
>> carpets are still like new whereas the Subaru carpets were starting to
>> look scruffy after 5yrs.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>   FWIW:
>>>>> Another mate's wife has a C Class, which has been back 6 times for
>>>>> the same fault.
>>>>
>>>> What fault?
>>>>
>>>>   That mate owns a Red Line ute.
>>>>
>>>> Whats a "Red Line" ute?
>>>
>>> **6.2 Litre Holden ute:
>>>
>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/holden-ssv-redline-ute-59834
>>
>> Good luck to him, generally speaking they are much less reliable than
>> most MB.
>> Has he had to replace the cam and lifters yet or have the interior
>> bits that keep falling off replaced?
>
> **No idea. He mostly grumbles about his wife's Benz. I don't hear a
> single word about his ute.
>
>> Son's had a VE SS ute and he sold it before it completely feel to
>> bits, went back to the dealer so many times under warranty to try and
>> stop the glove box falling on the floor but they were never able to
>> fix it.
>> His brother in law had a slightly newer VE SS ute, at about 50,000km
>> the engine started making all sorts of rattling noises which turned
>> out to be failed valve lifters, it sat in his shed for a couple of
>> years till he could afford to fix it.
>> BTW was there really a fault with the MB that needed to go back to the
>> dealer 6 times or did you just make that up, if you didn't tell us
>> what the fault was.
>
> **The Merc kept developing an annoying noise.

Sometimes that sort of thing can be very difficult to find.
A bloke I used to work with at Ford was previously a service advisor at
a Holden dealer, he told me about a very angry customer that was
complaining about a noise that supposedly no one else could find or fix.
2 mins into a test drive with the customer he put his hand on the rear
view mirror and the noise disappeared, no doubt very annoying for the
customer but overall a very minor problem, in a lot of cases mechanics
look for more serious problems so they miss the simple ones.

--
Daryl

On 22/3/2023 12:49 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 11:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 22/3/2023 10:32 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>> So tell me. Given that *the* most popular class of vehicle on the
>>> market today is the diesel powered dual cab ute, and given that the
>>> overwhelming majority of them come with 3.5 tonne towing capacities
>>> which, believe it or not a great many people do actually use to tow
>>> their caravans or boats or what have you, how are manufacturers going
>>> to come up with a viable hybrid alternative that would be capable of
>>> performing in that role?
>>>
>>> Now, before you fire off claims of the Porsche Cayenne having a
>>> Hybrid model that has a 3.5 tonne towing capacity in claiming that
>>> it's "doable", I'd remind you that the Cayenne Hybrid is a 175
>>> thousand buck car that is just a *tad* out of the range of your
>>> average Toyota Hilux or Ford Ranger buyer. Doable for luxury SUV's,
>>> certainly, but for everyday family dual cab utes remarkably less so.
>>
>> No EV can get anywhere near the range when towing so at this point in
>> time there is not a single EV that comes even slightly close to
>> replacing the best selling vehicles in this country.
>
> Full Electrics? No chance in hell. At least on today's technology.
> Hybrids maybe, as they still have a conventional IC engine, but I'm more
> concerned about how capable they would do the job when the battery is
> flat and they have to reply purely on their ICE which in any hybrid is
> significantly reduced in capacity and output compared to the
> conventional ICE you'd find in a comparable conventional vehicle.
>
> For example, the wife and I have a 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander.
> Great vehicle that we both love. It has a 2.2l turbo diesel that makes
> 147kW @ 3800rpm and 440Nm @ 1750-2750rpm mated to an 8 speed auto with a
> range of ratios that suit it pretty well, and it's a decent drive. It
> has a 2 tonne braked towing capacity, and it performs in that role well.
> I've been using it quite a bit lately since getting rid of the Navara a
> few months ago.
>
> Hyundai have a Hybrid version of the Santa Fe on the market in the
> current model, and the vehicle itself isn't all that much different to
> the previous model we have being much the same size and weight. However
> the new Hybrid version has a turbo 1.6 litre petrol engine as it's main
> motive force that makes 132kW @ 5500rpm and 265Nm at 1500-4500rpm. Quite
> significantly lower output than the diesel and in a higher rev range.
>
> The electric component of the Hybrid package boosts the output figures
> to 169kW/350Nm, but interestingly it only has a 6 speed auto which takes
> away a fair bit of functionality in terms of the number of available
> ratios that can be used to keep the engine "on the boil" so to speak.
>
> As a result of this the power to weight ratio drops from 75.6kW/t for
> the turbo diesel, to 87.1kW/t for the Hybrid Petrol, and the towing
> capacity drops from 2 tonne to 1650kg. That's an almost 20% reduction in
> ability, and I can just imagine the screams of disapproval from ute
> drivers if manufacturers try to pass that same metric off to dual cab
> ute buyers.

I can already hear the yelling and screaming, very likely owners of such
vehicles will consider keeping their vehicles much longer and just fix
things when they need to instead of replacing every few years.
>
> The wife will probably want another car in a couple of years, and we'll
> look at the Hybrid to see what it's like. But with a hit like that I'm
> not sure we'll be buying one.
>

I suppose that will depend whats on offer when you decide to buy a new
car but if you still want to use it for towing then the options could be
limited.

--
Daryl

On 22/3/2023 12:49 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 22/03/2023 11:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 22/3/2023 10:32 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>> So tell me. Given that *the* most popular class of vehicle on the
>>> market today is the diesel powered dual cab ute, and given that the
>>> overwhelming majority of them come with 3.5 tonne towing capacities
>>> which, believe it or not a great many people do actually use to tow
>>> their caravans or boats or what have you, how are manufacturers going
>>> to come up with a viable hybrid alternative that would be capable of
>>> performing in that role?
>>>
>>> Now, before you fire off claims of the Porsche Cayenne having a
>>> Hybrid model that has a 3.5 tonne towing capacity in claiming that
>>> it's "doable", I'd remind you that the Cayenne Hybrid is a 175
>>> thousand buck car that is just a *tad* out of the range of your
>>> average Toyota Hilux or Ford Ranger buyer. Doable for luxury SUV's,
>>> certainly, but for everyday family dual cab utes remarkably less so.
>>
>> No EV can get anywhere near the range when towing so at this point in
>> time there is not a single EV that comes even slightly close to
>> replacing the best selling vehicles in this country.
>
> Full Electrics? No chance in hell. At least on today's technology.
> Hybrids maybe, as they still have a conventional IC engine, but I'm more
> concerned about how capable they would do the job when the battery is
> flat and they have to reply purely on their ICE which in any hybrid is
> significantly reduced in capacity and output compared to the
> conventional ICE you'd find in a comparable conventional vehicle.
>
> For example, the wife and I have a 2018 Hyundai Santa Fe Highlander.
> Great vehicle that we both love. It has a 2.2l turbo diesel that makes
> 147kW @ 3800rpm and 440Nm @ 1750-2750rpm mated to an 8 speed auto with a
> range of ratios that suit it pretty well, and it's a decent drive. It
> has a 2 tonne braked towing capacity, and it performs in that role well.
> I've been using it quite a bit lately since getting rid of the Navara a
> few months ago.

Lucky you got shed of it before *detonation time*. Could have been
expensive!
>
> Hyundai have a Hybrid version of the Santa Fe on the market in the
> current model, and the vehicle itself isn't all that much different to
> the previous model we have being much the same size and weight. However
> the new Hybrid version has a turbo 1.6 litre petrol engine as it's main
> motive force that makes 132kW @ 5500rpm and 265Nm at 1500-4500rpm. Quite
> significantly lower output than the diesel and in a higher rev range.

When will yours Hyundai burn your garage and house down? It would be one
of the *hot* models.
>
> The electric component of the Hybrid package boosts the output figures
> to 169kW/350Nm, but interestingly it only has a 6 speed auto which takes
> away a fair bit of functionality in terms of the number of available
> ratios that can be used to keep the engine "on the boil" so to speak.

What a load of codswallop. In a typical *9 speed transmission*, 5th is
direct, all higher being *overdrives*. The moment you transition from
cruise to *any level* of acceleration, you drop back to 5th or lower.
So, in other words, the upper half of the transmission ratio set are to
keep the engine *off the boil* and into economy cruise mode. In a
*hybrid*, the extra assist from the electric motor achieves the same
functionality.
>
> As a result of this the power to weight ratio drops from 75.6kW/t for
> the turbo diesel, to 87.1kW/t for the Hybrid Petrol, and the towing
> capacity drops from 2 tonne to 1650kg. That's an almost 20% reduction in
> ability, and I can just imagine the screams of disapproval from ute
> drivers if manufacturers try to pass that same metric off to dual cab
> ute buyers.
>
> The wife will probably want another car in a couple of years, and we'll
> look at the Hybrid to see what it's like. But with a hit like that I'm
> not sure we'll be buying one.

She should. Her driving habits are where hybrids are a perfect fit.

--
Xeno

Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

On 22/3/2023 1:33 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 22/3/2023 11:24 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 21/03/2023 10:09 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 21/3/2023 4:42 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/2023 4:18 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 21/3/2023 3:19 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 10:27 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 7:56 pm, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 18/03/2023 5:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nope those are your words not mine, I wasn't comparing a Tesla
>>>>>>>>> to another EV, I was comparing it to a normal car.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **The Tesla *IS* a normal car. It just happens to be powered by
>>>>>>>> electricity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not even close.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In any logical sense, a "normal" car would be the type used in
>>>>>>> the last 100 years. Ie: powered by an internal combustion engine.
>>>>>>> EV's while not new in essence, are an emerging trend in the
>>>>>>> automotive world and are very definitely *not* the "norm" as we
>>>>>>> sit here today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **"Normal" is a relative term. Within a decades, ICE cars will be
>>>>>> a niche purchase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   > Moreover, in less than 10 years, you will have to look real
>>>>>>>> hard to buy a car that runs on fossil fuels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Um, no. I'll have to do nothing more difficult to walk out into
>>>>>>> my workshop and pick which one I want to drive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **I should said: "...you will have to look real hard to buy a NEW
>>>>>> car that runs on fossil fuels."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There will still be fossil fuelled vehicles on the market in ten
>>>>>>> years time....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **Sure and the vast majority will have a battery/electric motor to
>>>>>> supplement the motive force.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Not at all. You were claiming that Tesla (specifically) was
>>>>>>>> "double what they are worth". I showed you that you lied.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ROTFL :) You did no such thing at all :)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just to inject a bit of reality back into the conversation, he
>>>>>>> was giving his opinion, and that's not a "lie".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **OK. I'll accept that Dazza's opinion has not been proven and was
>>>>>> rooted in ignorance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Secondly, you did *nothing*
>>>>>>> to show that a Tesla is not a massively over priced vehicle of
>>>>>>> dubious quality by showing a list of other irrelevant vehicles
>>>>>>> with different price tags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **I showed other, similar sized cars.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Why, when you compare a Tesla to a IC car they make zero
>>>>>>>>> economic sense, even the PHEV my mate's wife bought cost $23k
>>>>>>>>> more than the i30 its based on.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **They might make zero economic sense to YOU. Or not. You don't
>>>>>>>> know. You are making unfounded assumptions, based on zero
>>>>>>>> personal knowledge and experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just out of curiosity here Trev, what exactly is *your*
>>>>>>> experience with Tesla's?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **I've CLOSELY examined a couple of Model 3 cars. I've ridden in a
>>>>>> late model one. VERY, VERY impressive performance, silence and
>>>>>> spacious interior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   If the answer to that is "zero", then take a moment to explain
>>>>>>> why you think *your* argument in favour of things trumps anyone
>>>>>>> else's against them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **I am not necessarily in favour of Teslas. I am pointing out the
>>>>>> errors espoused by Dazza and others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You missed the point again, no one buys a Ferrari because its
>>>>>>>>> cheap to own and run and anyone who does is a fruit loop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> **Correct. In fact, one of my mates owns a Ferrari. His wife
>>>>>>>> owns an S-Class Benz. The Ferrari has been cheaper to keep on
>>>>>>>> the road. A Tesla would be cheaper again.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The *only* way a Ferrari, *any* Ferrari would be cheaper to keep
>>>>>>> on the road than an S class Benz is if the Ferrari remains
>>>>>>> permanently parked in a garage and is never driven.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Italian cars, of all varieties, are *the* most unreliable pieces
>>>>>>> of shit in existence, and owning one is about as economical as
>>>>>>> having a Heroin habit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> **As is my mate's wife's S Class. He desperately doesn't want to
>>>>>> buy another Merc for her, but she loves that 3 pointed star. Wanker.
>>>>>
>>>>> Says the wanker that thinks an old Nissan is the ducks guts:-)
>>>>
>>>> **It cost me 5 Grand. I've owned it for 6 years and not only has it
>>>> been utterly reliable, but it's a whole bunch of fun to drive. Is it
>>>> the best car I've ever driven? Certainly not, but for 5 Grand it's
>>>> been brilliant.
>>>
>>> Same shit with my MB, in my experience its been as reliable as any of
>>> the 3 Toyota's I've owned, 2 of those were bought new, also equally
>>> reliable as any of the 3 new Subaru's we owned and put together with
>>> better quality materials than anything Japanese, for example the
>>> carpets are still like new whereas the Subaru carpets were starting
>>> to look scruffy after 5yrs.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   FWIW:
>>>>>> Another mate's wife has a C Class, which has been back 6 times for
>>>>>> the same fault.
>>>>>
>>>>> What fault?
>>>>>
>>>>>   That mate owns a Red Line ute.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whats a "Red Line" ute?
>>>>
>>>> **6.2 Litre Holden ute:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/holden-ssv-redline-ute-59834
>>>
>>> Good luck to him, generally speaking they are much less reliable than
>>> most MB.
>>> Has he had to replace the cam and lifters yet or have the interior
>>> bits that keep falling off replaced?
>>
>> **No idea. He mostly grumbles about his wife's Benz. I don't hear a
>> single word about his ute.
>>
>>> Son's had a VE SS ute and he sold it before it completely feel to
>>> bits, went back to the dealer so many times under warranty to try and
> Path: uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
> From: Yosemite Sam <felix@invalid.com>
> Newsgroups: aus.cars
> Subject: Re: Classic Ford Fan Action
> Date: Thu, 5 May 2022 12:56:32 +1000
> Lines: 48
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>
> On 5/05/2022 6:36 am, alvey wrote:
>> On Wed, 4 May 2022 20:15:37 +1000, Yosemite Sam wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/05/2022 7:43 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 4/05/2022 6:17 pm, lindsay wrote:
>>>>> On 4/05/2022 7:26 am, Clocky wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/05/2022 3:50 am, alvey wrote:
>>>>>>> https://tinyurl.com/y48fu6dk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> alvey
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think that link reaches what you intended to show.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, looks like Ford are still at it. "Discreetly" removing
>>> stop the glove box falling on the floor but they were never able to
>>> fix it.
>>> His brother in law had a slightly newer VE SS ute, at about 50,000km
>>> the engine started making all sorts of rattling noises which turned
>>> out to be failed valve lifters, it sat in his shed for a couple of
>>> years till he could afford to fix it.
>>> BTW was there really a fault with the MB that needed to go back to
>>> the dealer 6 times or did you just make that up, if you didn't tell
>>> us what the fault was.
>>
>> **The Merc kept developing an annoying noise.
>
> Sometimes that sort of thing can be very difficult to find.
> A bloke I used to work with at Ford was previously a service advisor at
> a Holden dealer, he told me about a very angry customer that was
> complaining about a noise that supposedly no one else could find or fix.
> 2 mins into a test drive with the customer he put his hand on the rear
> view mirror and the noise disappeared, no doubt very annoying for the
> customer but overall a very minor problem, in a lot of cases mechanics
> look for more serious problems so they miss the simple ones.
>
>
Cabin noises echo round so sometimes difficult to locate, especially if
you also need to concentrate on driving. Best to take another person on
the drive so they can reposition their seating position and triangulate
the noise origins. A driver alone cannot do that. Working in a Ford
dealership gave me lots of experience with that. You know the old
saying; "Ford, 6,000 miles, 6,000 rattles".

On 22/03/2023 1:40 pm, Daryl wrote:
> On 22/3/2023 12:49 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> As a result of this the power to weight ratio drops from 75.6kW/t for
>> the turbo diesel, to 87.1kW/t for the Hybrid Petrol, and the towing
>> capacity drops from 2 tonne to 1650kg. That's an almost 20% reduction
>> in ability, and I can just imagine the screams of disapproval from ute
>> drivers if manufacturers try to pass that same metric off to dual cab
>> ute buyers.
>
> I can already hear the yelling and screaming, very likely owners of such
> vehicles will consider keeping their vehicles much longer and just fix
> things when they need to instead of replacing every few years.

Yep. In their present form Hybrids are not going to work well in every
role.

>> The wife will probably want another car in a couple of years, and
>> we'll look at the Hybrid to see what it's like. But with a hit like
>> that I'm not sure we'll be buying one.
>
> I suppose that will depend whats on offer when you decide to buy a new
> car but if you still want to use it for towing then the options could be
> limited.

I doubt we will.

I only stuck a towbar on the Santa Fe a few months back to allow me to
tow my small trailer after the Navara had moved onto it's new owner and
I was left with nothing with a towbar. For the previous 3 and a half
years there was no need, and given that the new Ranger should be here in
a month or so there probably won't be a need to use it for towing again

As to whether we upgrade to a Hybrid on the next purchase will depend
largely on what the trouble & strife likes, as she'll be the one driving
it mostly. I'm not particularly fused either way in a car like that, but
in a ute I don't think there's going to be any real choice other than
turbo diesel for some time.

--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.