On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at 20:38:50 on
>>>Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under blues
>>>>and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first place. By
>>>>contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for passengers
>>>>(literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>
>>>Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>
>>They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>ambulance driving without having that training.
>
>I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>pedigree.
>
There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.

In message <qlqgdghnua6c24ga3n9amq7tcaqdr58gg9@4ax.com>, at 13:17:54 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>In the London Ambulance Service you won't be allowed in the driver's
>>>seat of a working ambulance without first passing a four-week driving
>>>course.
>>
>>Which is disjoint from needing an HGV licence.
>>
>What has an HGV licence got to do with it ?

The earlier suggestion that a fire engine driver might be better placed
to step into the job, having an HGV licence already.

>A driver is not regarded as competent to drive on blue lights without
>having undertaken relevant training in driving the vehicles under the
>adverse conditions likely to be encountered.

One suspects a Fire Engine driver will have been so trained, but is the
qualification portable?
--
Roland Perry

In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>>In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need accommodation
>>>>>during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>up work during the day.
>>>>
>>>>And you know this, how?
>>>>
>>>Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>according to different employers' setups.
>>
>>OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>like that.
>>
>You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.

It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.

>Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>facilities minimal or absent.

An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town; if I
ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my impression is
correct or not.

Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance services
there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the next nearest
smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and economies of
scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.

But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but they
won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>

Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.

Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".
--
Roland Perry

In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at 20:38:50 on
>>>>Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under blues
>>>>>and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first place. By
>>>>>contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for passengers
>>>>>(literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>
>>>>Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>
>>>They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>ambulance driving without having that training.
>>
>>I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>pedigree.
>>
>There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.

Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
vehicle"?
--
Roland Perry

On 27/06/2021 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55 on
> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>> In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need accommodation
>>>>>> during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>> up work during the day.
>>>>>
>>>>> And you know this, how?
>>>>>
>>>> Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>> deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>> business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>> will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>> according to different employers' setups.
>>>
>>> OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>> like that.
>>>
>> You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.
>
> It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.
>
>> Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>> the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>> cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>> involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>> facilities minimal or absent.
>
> An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town; if I
> ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my impression is
> correct or not.
>
> Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance services
> there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the next nearest
> smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and economies of
> scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.
>
> But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but they
> won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>
>
> Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.
>
> Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".
No it isn't. If you look at the subject the original topic is OOC station.

On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>> blues
>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>
>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>
>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>> pedigree.
>>>
>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>
> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit vehicle"?

They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.

In message <sba17r$mfs$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:16:27 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06
>>on Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>20:38:50 on
>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive
>>>>>>>under blues
>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>place. By
>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>passengers
>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>
>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>> pedigree.
>>>>
>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.

>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>vehicle"?
>
>They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.

I've got a C1 and all I ever passed was the regular car test when I was
17yrs old.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sba10v$jg8$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:47 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 27/06/2021 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55
>>on Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>
>>>>>>> In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need
>>>>>>>accommodation
>>>>>>> during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>>> up work during the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you know this, how?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>>> deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>>> business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>>> will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>>> according to different employers' setups.
>>>>
>>>> OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>>> like that.
>>>>
>>> You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.
>> It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.
>>
>>> Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>>> the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>>> cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>>> involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>>> facilities minimal or absent.
>> An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town;
>>if I ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my
>>impression is correct or not.
>> Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance
>>services there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the
>>next nearest smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and
>>economies of scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.
>> But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but
>>they won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
>><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>
>> Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.
>> Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".

>No it isn't. If you look at the subject the original topic is OOC station.

>>And plod often goes "to the station". In the case of BTP, doubly so.
>>
>Ditto fire and ambulance when in their own contexts.

I don't have personal experience of those, but in the USA I think it's
called "the House".
--
Roland Perry

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>
>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>> pedigree.
>>>>
>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>
>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit vehicle"?
>
> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>

Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
is grossly overstretched.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sba17r$mfs$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:16:27 on Sun, 27 Jun
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06
>>> on Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive
>>>>>>>> under blues
>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>
>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>
>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>> vehicle"?
>>
>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>
> I've got a C1 and all I ever passed was the regular car test when I was
> 17yrs old.

It changed if you passed your test after 1997.

On 27/06/2021 16:20, Tweed wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>
>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>
>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit vehicle"?
>>
>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>>
>
> Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
> to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
> that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
> newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
> Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
> is grossly overstretched.
>

I think we need to go deeply into the regulations. An ambulance without
side windows seems to need a C1 licence. An ambulance with side windows
is probably OK with a B licence. An estate car type ambulance is
definitely OK with a B licence.

If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the licence.

In message <sba6m9$r77$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:49:29 on Sun, 27 Jun
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the
>licence.

I'm not sure any of my grandparents had a driving licence.
--
Roland Perry

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 27/06/2021 16:20, Tweed wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>>
>>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit vehicle"?
>>>
>>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>>>
>>
>> Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
>> to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
>> that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
>> newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
>> Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
>> is grossly overstretched.
>>
>
> I think we need to go deeply into the regulations. An ambulance without
> side windows seems to need a C1 licence. An ambulance with side windows
> is probably OK with a B licence. An estate car type ambulance is
> definitely OK with a B licence.
>
> If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
> grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the licence.
>
>

https://www.emergency-live.com/ambulance/was-introduces-a-new-3-5-tonne-double-crewed-ambulance-for-the-uk/

“WAS UK has unveiled the ground-breaking 3.5 tonne double crew ambulance
(DCA). This is the first DCA in a generation that can be operated at full
capacity and still be driven on a standard type ‘B’ driving licence.”

“The WAS innovative lightweight aluminium ambulance body combined with a
state-of-the-art Fiat-based chassis system has enabled this previously out
of reach goal once again to be a reality, putting the UK at the very
forefront of mobile medical technology.

This launch will enable ambulance trusts all over the UK to address one of
the key issues they encounter on a daily basis: that newly qualified
paramedics, technicians and emergency care assistants must take a C1
driving licence prior to being able to drive a DCA, at a cost of around
£1000.

Neil Le Chevalier explains: “With the ambulance service recruiting more
younger paramedics now, straight out of university, their driving licence
no longer has a C1 category. Until they have their C1 driving licence they
can’t drive any vehicle weighing over 3.5 tonne. This can be a limiting
factor.

There’s also the cost of taking the additional driving test, which new
recruits usually have to pay themselves. If we moved to a 3.5 tonne vehicle
on a replacement basis we’d solve the problem in the longer term as there
is no requirement for any additional license at this weight.”

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:27:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at 20:38:50 on
>>>>>Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under blues
>>>>>>and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first place. By
>>>>>>contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for passengers
>>>>>>(literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>
>>>>They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>
>>>I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>pedigree.
>>>
>>There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>
>Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>vehicle"?
>
An ambulance over 7.5t MGW requires an HGV licence.
Who said anything about them being used for pursuit?

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:49:29 +0100,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 27/06/2021 16:20, Tweed wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>>
>>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>>
>>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit vehicle"?
>>>
>>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>>>
>>
>> Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
>> to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
>> that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
>> newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
>> Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
>> is grossly overstretched.
>>
>
>I think we need to go deeply into the regulations. An ambulance without
>side windows seems to need a C1 licence. An ambulance with side windows
>is probably OK with a B licence. An estate car type ambulance is
>definitely OK with a B licence.
>
>If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the licence.
>
If it is an estate car then it is unlikely to be legally an ambulance
as a fundamental requirement to be one is the ability to carry a
casualty in a recumbent position.

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:01:31 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <qlqgdghnua6c24ga3n9amq7tcaqdr58gg9@4ax.com>, at 13:17:54 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>>In the London Ambulance Service you won't be allowed in the driver's
>>>>seat of a working ambulance without first passing a four-week driving
>>>>course.
>>>
>>>Which is disjoint from needing an HGV licence.
>>>
>>What has an HGV licence got to do with it ?
>
>The earlier suggestion that a fire engine driver might be better placed
>to step into the job, having an HGV licence already.
>
The relevant matter is response driving.

>>A driver is not regarded as competent to drive on blue lights without
>>having undertaken relevant training in driving the vehicles under the
>>adverse conditions likely to be encountered.
>
>One suspects a Fire Engine driver will have been so trained, but is the
>qualification portable?
>
There is more than one qualification dealing with varying aspects of
response driving. AFAIR the "high speed" elements are effectively
portable but others are service (not employer) specific, e.g. :-
https://www.sja.org.uk/courses/ambulance-driver-training/level-3-certificate-in-emergency-response-ambulance/book-cerad/
[Level 3 Certificate in Emergency Response Ambulance Driving (CERAD)]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:19:35 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>>>>In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need accommodation
>>>>>>during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>>up work during the day.
>>>>>
>>>>>And you know this, how?
>>>>>
>>>>Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>>deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>>business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>>will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>>according to different employers' setups.
>>>
>>>OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>>like that.
>>>
>>You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.
>
>It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.
>
>>Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>>the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>>cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>>involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>>facilities minimal or absent.
>
>An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town; if I
>ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my impression is
>correct or not.
>
>Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance services
>there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the next nearest
>smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and economies of
>scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.
>
>But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but they
>won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>
>
>Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.
>
Not seen it but Chicago, like e.g. also New York, would be a typical
place to have such dual provision. Looking at e.g.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_medical_services_in_the_United_States
There does seem to be wide variety in the styles of emergency
ambulance provision in the USA with control (if not actual provision)
falling ultimately to each state. It also suggests there has been a
regulatory tightening of ambulance services in recent decades to the
detriment of the "man and his van" ambulance services portrayed in a
couple of 1970s(?) films.

>Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:12:47 +0100,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:

>On 27/06/2021 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55 on
>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>> In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need accommodation
>>>>>>> during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>>> up work during the day.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you know this, how?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>>> deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>>> business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>>> will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>>> according to different employers' setups.
>>>>
>>>> OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>>> like that.
>>>>
>>> You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.
>>
>> It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.
>>
>>> Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>>> the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>>> cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>>> involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>>> facilities minimal or absent.
>>
>> An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town; if I
>> ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my impression is
>> correct or not.
>>
>> Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance services
>> there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the next nearest
>> smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and economies of
>> scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.
>>
>> But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but they
>> won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>
>>
>> Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.
>>
>> Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".
>No it isn't. If you look at the subject the original topic is OOC station.
>
This is uk.railway. We have drifted as is traditional.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sba6m9$r77$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:49:29 on Sun, 27 Jun
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>
>> If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>> grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the
>> licence.
>
> I'm not sure any of my grandparents had a driving licence.

One of mine did, but he never had to sit a test.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <0cchdg13vh698ivuicsnh1q6uneg3bs07l@4ax.com>, at 18:18:01 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:27:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under blues
>>>>>>>and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first place. By
>>>>>>>contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for passengers
>>>>>>>(literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>
>>>>>They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>
>>>>I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>pedigree.
>>>>
>>>There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>
>>Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>vehicle"?
>>
>An ambulance over 7.5t MGW requires an HGV licence.

Not many of them about.

>Who said anything about them being used for pursuit?

Someone above mentioned pursuit. Why would it matter that a police
driver wasn't trained in pursuit, when swapping jobs to be an ambulance
driver, unless it was implied that ambulances were used in pursuits?
--
Roland Perry

In message <pqchdgpde4cp3u6ib4l9s4ccs9kvak2lg1@4ax.com>, at 18:22:45 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:49:29 +0100,
>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>
>>On 27/06/2021 16:20, Tweed wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>>>>vehicle"?
>>>>
>>>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
>>> to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
>>> that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
>>> newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
>>> Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
>>> is grossly overstretched.
>>>
>>
>>I think we need to go deeply into the regulations. An ambulance without
>>side windows seems to need a C1 licence. An ambulance with side windows
>>is probably OK with a B licence. An estate car type ambulance is
>>definitely OK with a B licence.
>>
>>If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>>grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the licence.
>>
>If it is an estate car then it is unlikely to be legally an ambulance
>as a fundamental requirement to be one is the ability to carry a
>casualty in a recumbent position.

That's nonsense I'm afraid. Any vehicle being used "for ambulance
purposes" counts as an ambulance. Or more trivially, my ambulance trust
lists many of what it calls "ambulance cars", the vans are called "A&E
Ambulances". Then there's the "Patient Transport Ambulances" -
minibuses. <http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/photo/p1300355.jpg>
--
Roland Perry

In message <kjehdgdo2ql1843bhsnm259mqdjeqra073@4ax.com>, at 18:52:06 on
Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 15:12:47 +0100,
>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>
>>On 27/06/2021 14:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <a4rgdgp69vphkvhhmm6l5nmmmo5844edoh@4ax.com>, at 13:27:55 on
>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> In the more general case, ambulance staff don't need accommodation
>>>>>>>> during the working day as most aren't on standby rather than picking
>>>>>>>> up work during the day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you know this, how?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Fire services don't have a constant supply of burning buildings to
>>>>>> deal with. Ambulances OTOH usually have a fairly steady supply of
>>>>>> business. In the US case above where services are co-located there
>>>>>> will be opportunity to share those services but otherwise it will vary
>>>>>> according to different employers' setups.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK so you don't *know*, you are just assuming things would be organised
>>>>> like that.
>>>>>
>>>> You seem to we warming up one of your daft arguments again.
>>>
>>> It's not an argument, rather a quest for reliable information.
>>>
>>>> Ambulance provision as a municipal service is far from universal in
>>>> the USA. The same applies to fire services, in particular away from
>>>> cities and large towns where there can be a large degree of volunteer
>>>> involvement supported by local fund-raising with inessential welfare
>>>> facilities minimal or absent.
>>>
>>> An extended family member is the fire chief in a smallish USA town; if I
>>> ever get to travel there again I'll ask him whether my impression is
>>> correct or not.
>>>
>>> Part of the issue here is that neither the fire nor ambulance services
>>> there are especially busy, and it's an hour's drive to the next nearest
>>> smallish town, so they have to be self sufficient, and economies of
>>> scale (like sharing premises) makes a lot of sense.
>>>
>>> But back in major metro areas, I know it's not a documentary [but they
>>> won't get basic facts wrong] have you seen:
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Fire_(TV_series)>
>>>
>>> Ambulance 61; and Truck 81 also has paramedics in the crew.
>>>
>>> Getting back to the original topic: "firehouse".

>>No it isn't. If you look at the subject the original topic is OOC station.
>>
>This is uk.railway. We have drifted as is traditional.

But in the context of firehouse (ie not Fire Station), only as far as
what other industries call their base a "station".
--
Roland Perry

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sba6m9$r77$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:49:29 on Sun, 27 Jun
>> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>
>>> If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>>> grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the
>>> licence.
>>
>> I'm not sure any of my grandparents had a driving licence.
>
> One of mine did, but he never had to sit a test.

One of mine drove a car, another rode a motorcycle in her youth, and
[obrail] a third drove steam locomotives (and diesels from the 1950s
onwards).
--
Jeremy Double

On Mon, 28 Jun 2021 07:50:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <pqchdgpde4cp3u6ib4l9s4ccs9kvak2lg1@4ax.com>, at 18:22:45 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 16:49:29 +0100,
>>martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>
>>>On 27/06/2021 16:20, Tweed wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/06/2021 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>>>>> Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>> 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>>>>> Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>>>>> firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>>>>> drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under
>>>>>>>>>>> blues
>>>>>>>>>>> and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>>>>> smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first
>>>>>>>>>>> place. By
>>>>>>>>>>> contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>>>>> either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for
>>>>>>>>>>> passengers
>>>>>>>>>>> (literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>>>>> driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>>>>> licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>>>>> firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>>>>> able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>>>>> therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>>>>> ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>>>>> pedigree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>>>>> driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>>>>> driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>>>>> experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>>>>>vehicle"?
>>>>>
>>>>> They're not but you still need a C1 licence to drive them NOT just a B.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily. Lighter vehicles are around to get around this. Pre going
>>>> to med school my son did ambulance shifts with one of the private outfits
>>>> that fill in for the NHS service. He was allowed to drive some of their
>>>> newer vehicles, but not on emergency calls. Mainly patient transport.
>>>> Judging by the amount of work being offloaded to this firm, the NHS service
>>>> is grossly overstretched.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I think we need to go deeply into the regulations. An ambulance without
>>>side windows seems to need a C1 licence. An ambulance with side windows
>>>is probably OK with a B licence. An estate car type ambulance is
>>>definitely OK with a B licence.
>>>
>>>If memory serves me correctly there are some restrictions on Roland's
>>>grandparent's rights compared to those who've taken a test for the licence.
>>>
>>If it is an estate car then it is unlikely to be legally an ambulance
>>as a fundamental requirement to be one is the ability to carry a
>>casualty in a recumbent position.
>
>That's nonsense I'm afraid. Any vehicle being used "for ambulance
>purposes" counts as an ambulance. Or more trivially, my ambulance trust
>lists many of what it calls "ambulance cars", the vans are called "A&E
>Ambulances". Then there's the "Patient Transport Ambulances" -
>minibuses. <http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/photo/p1300355.jpg>
>
WRT to traffic laws, that is not an ambulance, it is a vehicle
operated by an ambulance service. It can operate under blue lights
under various other categories as it is an NHS vehicle.
The word "Ambulance" can be painted on any vehicle.

You have missed the Hatzolah case [DPP v Issler & Bamberger] a few
years back.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26563934
https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/5a8ff75d60d03e7f57eabc4a

An ambulance has to be capable of carrying sick or injured persons in
a recumbent position; one of the several failure points in the
Hatzolah case was the absence of provision for a stretcher. Anything
else is not an ambulance for the purposes of road traffic laws. An
"ambulance car" is an ambulance in the dictionary sense but not in the
legal sense; it might be an "emergency vehicle" depending on the
actual mode of use and equipment fitted/carried. Other vehicles marked
"Ambulance" might or might not legally be ambulances; some are used
for associated blue-light purposes (e.g. response vehicles used by
doctors etc) but are still not ambulances rather than another vehicle
category. A vehicle being used by or for an NHS to respond to an
emergency which is not an ambulance defaults to being an emergency
vehicle.

(presupposing the appropriate training) I can drive a vehicle marked
"Ambulance" which is not an Ambulance but I cannot turn on the lights
and siren unless I am carrying a doctor or other specified person or
it is being used to provide a relevant service to an NHS body.

rOn Mon, 28 Jun 2021 07:46:32 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <0cchdg13vh698ivuicsnh1q6uneg3bs07l@4ax.com>, at 18:18:01 on
>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 14:27:08 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <corgdg99ucd9heh0dlsvf2bot24pek82mc@4ax.com>, at 13:33:06 on
>>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:20:42 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <rdogdglup7m26jri2mg2k4ov12jh6ekovj@4ax.com>, at 12:32:56 on
>>>>>Sun, 27 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 08:44:48 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In message <0rvedgprg7cbipp3dehqtd96i3d49o73na@4ax.com>, at 20:38:50 on
>>>>>>>Sat, 26 Jun 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>in the fire service, driving is a specialist role that not all
>>>>>>>>firefighters take on. That's partly because fire engines are HGVs and
>>>>>>>>drivers require an HGV licence even before they get to drive under blues
>>>>>>>>and twos, but also because size of a fire engine crew means that a
>>>>>>>>smaller proportion of of staff need to be drivers in the first place. By
>>>>>>>>contrast, all ambulance personnel are drivers, because ambulances are
>>>>>>>>either solo or twin-crewed and the service has no space for passengers
>>>>>>>>(literally!). So not all former firefighters would have transferable
>>>>>>>>driving skills that could be used in the ambulance service anyway.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Are you suggesting that the non-driver firemen don't have a regular
>>>>>>>licence? How do they get to the fire station (iirc retained
>>>>>>>firefighters, who reportedly cover 60% of the country, have to be
>>>>>>>able to turn up within five minutes of being paged).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>They won't be trained to drive under blues and tows, though, and
>>>>>>therefore don't have the transferrable skills to go straight into
>>>>>>ambulance driving without having that training.
>>>>>
>>>>>I suspect all drivers will need the training course, whatever their
>>>>>pedigree.
>>>>>
>>>>There are common courses across the emergency services for "response"
>>>>driving. The main variation will be in the types of vehicles that a
>>>>driver needs to be familiar with; most police drivers won't have HGV
>>>>experience while other drivers won't have pursuit experience.
>>>
>>>Ambulances aren't HGVs, and how often are they used as a "pursuit
>>>vehicle"?
>>>
>>An ambulance over 7.5t MGW requires an HGV licence.
>
>Not many of them about.
>
Not a lot.

>>Who said anything about them being used for pursuit?
>
>Someone above mentioned pursuit. Why would it matter that a police
>driver wasn't trained in pursuit, when swapping jobs to be an ambulance
>driver, unless it was implied that ambulances were used in pursuits?
>
Both involve driving in excess of the parameters of normal driving
(applicable also to police who are not pusuit trained) but not in the
same types of vehicles. An ex-police driver who fails to "convert" is
at risk of e.g. overturning an ambulance or fire vehicle.