Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <4i0tYrVP5kL8gEd1jt0m+edPsAFm@4ax.com>, at 23:42:38 on Sat,
> 12 Mar 2022, Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:31:57 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> No problem - we’re all ignorant about some things. I’m trying to remember
>>> whether there were ever VT 87+Mk3 trips on that route or whether it started
>>> with the Pendolini.
>>
>> I think the change occurred towards the end of BR with the
>> introduction of the DVTs and effectively fixed formation. Prior to
>> that some WCML trains would split at Carstairs with a portion being
>> diesel hauled to Edinburgh. After privitisation I think the WCML
>> Edinburgh trains were part of Cross Country worked for a time by Class
>> 158s!
>
> I've seen a VT heading west at Haymarket, while waiting for a hop to
> Haymarket to catch a train to Peterborough. (Five years ago, perhaps)
>
> Looking at tomorrow:
>
> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:EDB/to/gb-
> nr:BHM/2022-03-14/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt>
>
> There's the hourly (with a few missing) XCs to the West Country, plus
> seven trains to Euston.

That’s interesting. I made a faulty assumption that the quickest way to
get to Euston would be on a train that goes directly there, and searched
National Rail accordingly. It turns out it’s not the quickest way by a
considerable margin.

Sam

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Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:31:57 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> No problem - we’re all ignorant about some things. I’m trying to remember
>> whether there were ever VT 87+Mk3 trips on that route or whether it started
>> with the Pendolini.
>
> I think the change occurred towards the end of BR with the
> introduction of the DVTs and effectively fixed formation. Prior to
> that some WCML trains would split at Carstairs with a portion being
> diesel hauled to Edinburgh. After privitisation I think the WCML
> Edinburgh trains were part of Cross Country worked for a time by Class
> 158s!

I don’t ever remember seeing a Mk3 DVT in Edinburgh, but I may not have
been looking. In the 70s I lived in Manchester and studied in Edinburgh
and experienced the Carstairs exchanges many times, and the arrangements
before that, with a 1st gen DMU to Preston and a cross-platform change to
37+Mk1s at Carstairs.

Sam

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Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>
>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>
>
> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
> throughout, IIRC.

XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
aren’t they?

Sam

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Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>
>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>
>>
>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>> throughout, IIRC.
>
> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
> aren’t they?
>

Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>
>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>
>>
>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>> throughout, IIRC.
>
> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
> aren’t they?
>
>

Looking at RTT at New Street for today, it seems I'd over estimated a
little; only one of the Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham trains each way is
double voyager. But in addition to the Shrewsbury services which obviously
need to be voyager, three Blackpool trains through BHM are diesel, plus
five round trips Euston-BHM (one through to Wolverhampton).

Checking Euston, there's also obviously the Chester/Holyhead/Wrexham
trains, plus a Crewe.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>
>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>> aren’t they?
>>
>
> Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.

OK. Looking at Anna’s reply, I don’t think any Avanti 221s reach
Edinburgh, though.

Sam

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Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>>
>>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>>> aren’t they?
>>>
>>
>> Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.
>
> OK. Looking at Anna’s reply, I don’t think any Avanti 221s reach
> Edinburgh, though.
>

"Looking at RTT at New Street for today, it seems I'd over estimated a
little; only one of the Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham trains each way is
double voyager."

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>>
>>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>>> aren’t they?
>>>
>>
>> Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.
>
> OK. Looking at Anna’s reply, I don’t think any Avanti 221s reach
> Edinburgh, though.
>

Two trains per day; 0852 to Euston and 2222 from Euston. Easily visible as
the 10 car trains on here:
<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:EDB/2022-03-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=VT>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:51:48 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
> That’s interesting. I made a faulty assumption that the quickest way to
> get to Euston would be on a train that goes directly there, and searched
> National Rail accordingly. It turns out it’s not the quickest way by a
> considerable margin.

No, that's actually specifically announced on the train. At Crewe,
passengers with flexible tickets are advised to change to a following
direct train. Even with the wait at Crewe, that gets you to Euston about
30 minutes earlier than staying on the same train - IIRC the following
train is non-stop to Euston.
Actually I suspect that the quickest way from Edinburgh to Euston is
usually to get the LNER to Kings Cross then walk down the Euston Road!

Mike

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Mar 2022 20:51:48 +0000, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> That’s interesting. I made a faulty assumption that the quickest way to
>> get to Euston would be on a train that goes directly there, and searched
>> National Rail accordingly. It turns out it’s not the quickest way by a
>> considerable margin.
>
> No, that's actually specifically announced on the train. At Crewe,
> passengers with flexible tickets are advised to change to a following
> direct train. Even with the wait at Crewe, that gets you to Euston about
> 30 minutes earlier than staying on the same train - IIRC the following
> train is non-stop to Euston.
> Actually I suspect that the quickest way from Edinburgh to Euston is
> usually to get the LNER to Kings Cross then walk down the Euston Road!

That does seem to be the case, or occasionally to change at Lancaster for a
more direct train.

Sam

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Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>>>> aren’t they?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.
>>
>> OK. Looking at Anna’s reply, I don’t think any Avanti 221s reach
>> Edinburgh, though.
>>
>
> "Looking at RTT at New Street for today, it seems I'd over estimated a
> little; only one of the Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham trains each way is
> double voyager."

Oops! Posting while knackered is a bad idea!

Sam

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Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>>>
>>>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>>>> aren’t they?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope, Avanti still runs 221s, until they're replaced by 805s.
>>
>> OK. Looking at Anna’s reply, I don’t think any Avanti 221s reach
>> Edinburgh, though.
>>
>
> Two trains per day; 0852 to Euston and 2222 from Euston. Easily visible as
> the 10 car trains on here:
> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:EDB/2022-03-16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt&toc=VT>

I’ve just replied to Recliner with an “oops” which I’ll repeat here! I
should go and have a look sometime; I’ve not noticed an Avanti-liveried
221.

Sam

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In message <t0s8vs$ktc$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:44 on Wed, 16 Mar
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> That’s interesting. I made a faulty assumption that the quickest way to
>>> get to Euston would be on a train that goes directly there, and searched
>>> National Rail accordingly. It turns out it’s not the quickest way by a
>>> considerable margin.
>>
>> No, that's actually specifically announced on the train. At Crewe,
>> passengers with flexible tickets are advised to change to a following
>> direct train. Even with the wait at Crewe, that gets you to Euston about
>> 30 minutes earlier than staying on the same train - IIRC the following
>> train is non-stop to Euston.

>> Actually I suspect that the quickest way from Edinburgh to Euston is
>> usually to get the LNER to Kings Cross then walk down the Euston Road!

Yes, because the ECML is pretty straight and fast (and no doubt
shorter), compared to the WCML.

>That does seem to be the case, or occasionally to change at Lancaster for a
>more direct train.

This is a typical fastest routing via Lancaster:

12:12 Edinburgh [EDB] Lancaster [LAN] 14:27 2h 15m
TransPennine Express service from Edinburgh to Manchester Airport

14:39 Lancaster [LAN] London Euston [EUS] 17:10 2h 31m
Avanti West Coast service from Glasgow Central to London Euston

versus:

12:30 Edinburgh [EDB] London Kings Cross [KGX] 16:48 4h 18m
London North Eastern Railway service from Edinburgh to London KX
--
Roland Perry

On 15/03/2022 21:26, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/03/2022 14:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> I was also surprised to see a Euston service starting at Waverley. Next
>>>>> stops Haymarket and Carlisle.
>>>>
>>>> Presumably via Birmingham? Scotland-Birmingham trains got joined onto
>>>> Birmingham-Euston trains quite a few years ago. It had the the major
>>>> advantage of replacing over-crowded Voyagers on the route with not so
>>>> over-crowded Pendolinos.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You might think that but in reality they're often double voyagers
>>> throughout, IIRC.
>>
>> XC run Voyagers but I think all the VTWC/Avanti services are Pendolini,
>> aren’t they?
>>
>>
>
> Looking at RTT at New Street for today, it seems I'd over estimated a
> little; only one of the Euston-Edinburgh via Birmingham trains each way is
> double voyager. But in addition to the Shrewsbury services which obviously
> need to be voyager, three Blackpool trains through BHM are diesel, plus
> five round trips Euston-BHM (one through to Wolverhampton).
>
> Checking Euston, there's also obviously the Chester/Holyhead/Wrexham
> trains, plus a Crewe.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>
>

During the Covid temporary timetable, some of the Euston - Birmingham -
Scotland services have not been running north of Preston; I think that
at least some were diverted instead to Blackpool North.