On 22/03/2022 10:57, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> But do they have to move up for your exact shop floor. So for example
>> Duty Control Manager for TPE cannot have risen from the shop floor at
>> East Midlands Trains?
>
> They don't *have* to have come from within the same TOC but IMX they very
> often do.
>
> I've just compared the public-facing gWr vacancy list, with the latest
> internal email vacancy list, and there are many more jobs on the internal
> list. Perhaps there's also a way (other than 'who you know') for getting
> appropriate talent from other TOCs, but I'm not aware of it.
>
> Of course if there's an (external) recruitment freeze then there's no
> choice but to recruit internally for such positions.

Interesting. Perhaps they advertise internally first, so you're seeing
this month's new vacancies plus all the jobs that none of your suitably
qualified colleagues wanted last month and which are now open to all.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:06:18 +0000, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>
>Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>extent, but given up on covid.

Because it's evolved to become a pretty benign disease, much like the common cold. We've not tried to eliminate colds,
either.

And we've not exactly 'given up' on Covid — we are now administering the second booster shot for the elderly, and it'll
be more widely deployed in the autumn. Those mass vaccinations have greatly reduced the effect of Covid. No other
disease has had that level of intensive vaccinations of adults. Is that 'giving up'?

The only other alternative is to continue to pursue a futile zero-Covid policy, as in China.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:24:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1aqtb$2l0$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:27 on Mon, 21 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>
>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>
>>For protection against Omicron, that would be a full respirator set-up.
>
>Some FFP3 are marked "respirator", but they aren't the full hazmat
>version.
>
>Other precautions are keeping one's distance, opening windows, asking
>visiting tradesmen to wear a mask (so at last they aren't coughing all
>over you), and so on.
>
>You give the impression you think that one virus particle is enough to
>infect, when the total viral load does still matter, as much now as for
>previous variants.

It's you that's panicking. I'm relaxed about being exposed to Covid particles.

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:15:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1afq8$op2$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:23:04 on Mon, 21 Mar
>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1ubh3hpd598esooo4tbc773sr09ira242h@4ax.com>, at 17:03:40 on
>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:53:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t1a7kd$f3s$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:25 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think the government understands the need for ventilation to
>>>>>>>> reduce covid transmission so I don't suppose we'll see any movement in
>>>>>>>> this direction.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They do understand the need, and do encourage greater ventilation
>>>>>>> when possible. But things have changed with Omicron: we can all
>>>>>>> expect to encounter it repeatedly, regardless of ventilation, masks,
>>>>>>> or incessant hand cleaning. Either learn to live with it, or become a
>>>>>>> recluse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So my elderly and frail friends, and my friends’ granddaughter who is on
>>>>>> chemo for leukaemia, will be prevented from travelling or taking part in
>>>>>> normal activities, like nursery for the granddaughter, and her parents and
>>>>>> baby sister will also be constrained.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don’t underestimate the effect removing precautions will have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have already have. But hey, cull the sick, it reduces the demand on the
>>>>> NHS. The ultra right wing knows it makes sense.
>>>>
>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>
>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>
>>Sensible precautions don’t stop the spread of Omicron. If you are
>>vulnerable take your own precautions, ie wear a proper FFP3 mask.
>
>And that is precisely the sort of sensible precaution I had in mind.

I trust your mask has been professionally fitted and adjusted?

In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue, 22
Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>
>Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>extent, but given up on covid.

It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you can
only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.

There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
<quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.

That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now decided is
a once-a-lifetime jab.
--
Roland Perry

In message <rikj3hld3eujv6h801np70g32dvnri8b65@4ax.com>, at 13:47:26 on
Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:06:18 +0000, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>
>>Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>extent, but given up on covid.
>
>Because it's evolved to become a pretty benign disease, much like the
>common cold. We've not tried to eliminate colds,
>either.

Actually we did. There was a significant post-war programme using
national service "volunteers", but they concluded it was impossible to
because like other recently well-known Coronoviruses they mutate too
fast.

--
Roland Perry

In message <5ukj3hlf3a81af4vng89pk243i1j69chve@4ax.com>, at 13:49:13 on
Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:15:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t1afq8$op2$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:23:04 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1ubh3hpd598esooo4tbc773sr09ira242h@4ax.com>, at 17:03:40 on
>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:53:42 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t1a7kd$f3s$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:25 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think the government understands the need for ventilation to
>>>>>>>>> reduce covid transmission so I don't suppose we'll see any movement in
>>>>>>>>> this direction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They do understand the need, and do encourage greater ventilation
>>>>>>>> when possible. But things have changed with Omicron: we can all
>>>>>>>> expect to encounter it repeatedly, regardless of ventilation, masks,
>>>>>>>> or incessant hand cleaning. Either learn to live with it, or become a
>>>>>>>> recluse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So my elderly and frail friends, and my friends’ granddaughter
>>>>>>>who is on
>>>>>>> chemo for leukaemia, will be prevented from travelling or taking part in
>>>>>>> normal activities, like nursery for the granddaughter, and her
>>>>>>>parents and
>>>>>>> baby sister will also be constrained.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don’t underestimate the effect removing precautions will have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have already have. But hey, cull the sick, it reduces the demand on the
>>>>>> NHS. The ultra right wing knows it makes sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>>
>>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>>
>>>Sensible precautions don’t stop the spread of Omicron. If you are
>>>vulnerable take your own precautions, ie wear a proper FFP3 mask.
>>
>>And that is precisely the sort of sensible precaution I had in mind.
>
>I trust your mask has been professionally fitted and adjusted?

Yes, thanks. Despite being 90% of the way there already due to my
engineering training, I have had a medical professional do a refresher
course.
--
Roland Perry

In message <urkj3h9180kubm18ulru08f4c3djtscod9@4ax.com>, at 13:48:20 on
Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:24:05 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t1aqtb$2l0$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:27 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>>
>>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>>
>>>For protection against Omicron, that would be a full respirator set-up.
>>
>>Some FFP3 are marked "respirator", but they aren't the full hazmat
>>version.
>>
>>Other precautions are keeping one's distance, opening windows, asking
>>visiting tradesmen to wear a mask (so at last they aren't coughing all
>>over you), and so on.
>>
>>You give the impression you think that one virus particle is enough to
>>infect, when the total viral load does still matter, as much now as for
>>previous variants.
>
>It's you that's panicking. I'm relaxed about being exposed to Covid particles.

I'm not panicking, it's you who are spreading anti-mask propaganda.
--
Roland Perry

On 2022-03-22 12:06:18 +0000, mechanic said:

> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>
> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
> extent, but given up on covid.

Ebola certainly is not eliminated, it is present in an animal
reservoir, so will return periodically. For diseases like smallpox,
measles, polio etc, they only affect humans, so have no animal
reservoir, they have the characteristic of a single course of
immunisation giving essentially lifetime protection, and even then it
has taken several generations of children being born and growing up
with near-universal vaccination programs to reach the level of
population immunity.

COVID has jumped from an animal source quite recently. Normally when
that happens, the disease rapidly evolves to be more human-specific,
which is what we have seen with COVID, with the downside that the
mutations have helped it overcome vaccine immunity. Another aspect is
that the immune system in the respiratory system seems to have certain
characteristics that make it hard to maintain lasting immunity to
respiratory diseases. The mechanisms are not well understood, but one
hypothesis is that for parts of the anatomy that have a high exposure
to environmental stuff, like the respiratory and digestive systems,
have a dampened immune response to prevent harmful accidental
triggering and things like alergic reactions to harmless environmental
agents.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>>>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of the
>>>>>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your
>>>>>>>>>> workforce. I doubt
>>>>>>>>>> the railway could cope with losing any more than that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then;
>>>>>>>> or if they
>>>>>>>> are, a replacement will be recruited as they would for a normal
>>>>>>>> retirement
>>>>>>>> or resignation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>>>>> industries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>>>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry,
>>>>>> with many
>>>>>> (presumably most) positions being filled internally;
>>>>>
>>>>> FSVO "internally". It doesn't help TOC A, if TOC B poaches lots of its
>>>>> drivers.
>>>>
>>>> Except with a recruitment freeze they won't be able to poach.
>>>
>>> Only TOC A has a recruitment freeze, in this example.
>>
>> I thought we were discussing a situation where a recruitment freeze was
>> imposed unilaterally on the entire industry, by GBR/DfT?
>
> The TOC example is just an analogy, other industries with multiple
> employers (and I think TOCs are multiple employers, unless you want to
> tell me your pay cheques come from DfT) might be in the same sector.
>
> For example FirstBus (or whatever it's called) versus Stagecoach. Or
> Scottish Power versus whatever Southern Electickery is called this week.
>

But we aren't discussing analogies in other industries. We're specifically
discussing the stated requirement for TOCs to lose x% of staff.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 22/03/2022 13:47, Recliner wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:06:18 +0000, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>
>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>> extent, but given up on covid.
>
> Because it's evolved to become a pretty benign disease, much like the common cold. We've not tried to eliminate colds,
> either.

They've been trying to cure colds for around 70 years, they haven't
succeeded yet.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/03/2022 13:57, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue, 22
> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>
>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>> extent, but given up on covid.
>
> It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you can
> only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>
> There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
> <quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>
> That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now decided is
> a once-a-lifetime jab.
Quite a few vaccines need topping up, IIRC yellow fever only lasts 7
years. Cut yourself on a rusty nail and you'll get a tetanus booster and
so on.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <5ukj3hlf3a81af4vng89pk243i1j69chve@4ax.com>, at 13:49:13 on
> Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:15:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t1afq8$op2$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:23:04 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <1ubh3hpd598esooo4tbc773sr09ira242h@4ax.com>, at 17:03:40 on
>>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:53:42 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t1a7kd$f3s$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:25 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the government understands the need for ventilation to
>>>>>>>>>> reduce covid transmission so I don't suppose we'll see any movement in
>>>>>>>>>> this direction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They do understand the need, and do encourage greater ventilation
>>>>>>>>> when possible. But things have changed with Omicron: we can all
>>>>>>>>> expect to encounter it repeatedly, regardless of ventilation, masks,
>>>>>>>>> or incessant hand cleaning. Either learn to live with it, or become a
>>>>>>>>> recluse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So my elderly and frail friends, and my friends’ granddaughter
>>>>>>>> who is on
>>>>>>>> chemo for leukaemia, will be prevented from travelling or taking part in
>>>>>>>> normal activities, like nursery for the granddaughter, and her
>>>>>>>> parents and
>>>>>>>> baby sister will also be constrained.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don’t underestimate the effect removing precautions will have.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Have already have. But hey, cull the sick, it reduces the demand on the
>>>>>>> NHS. The ultra right wing knows it makes sense.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>>>
>>>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>>>
>>>> Sensible precautions don’t stop the spread of Omicron. If you are
>>>> vulnerable take your own precautions, ie wear a proper FFP3 mask.
>>>
>>> And that is precisely the sort of sensible precaution I had in mind.
>>
>> I trust your mask has been professionally fitted and adjusted?
>
> Yes, thanks. Despite being 90% of the way there already due to my
> engineering training, I have had a medical professional do a refresher
> course.

Pre vaccines it was sensible to have a lockdown as death rates were
relatively high (especially as you got past normal retirement age) and
there was the prospect of vaccines turning up.

Post vaccines the death rate is significantly lower. There may be better
vaccines soon, however the state we now find ourselves in is that most of
us will just get to feel mildly ill.

If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your own*
precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing your contact
with others. Expecting others to go round wearing non FFP3 masks to save
you is basically just like relying on a lucky rabbit’s foot. Might make you
feel more secure but basically useless against the highly infectious
Omicron variant. It might delay you getting infected, but it will be
inevitable.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> tent, but given up on covid.

>
> They've been trying to cure colds for around 70 years, they haven't
> succeeded yet.
>

The Harvard common cold research centre was at Salisbury where the
district Hospital is now and made use of the buildings left from a wartime
facility built for the US forces.
Transferred to the NHS post war the site at Odstock also got a good
reputation for its burns unit.
New facilities were provided on the site when the city centre Salisbury
Infirmary whose buildings
dated from 1763 when it was first established.
A lot of the WW2 buildings are still in use on the Odstock site.

The common cold research centre got its test subjects by basically offering
a free all expenses paid holiday with conditions not that different from a
basic holiday camp of the era.
Those who came forward were civilian volunteers not national servicemen as
some claim.
More details here

<https://www.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/blog/revealing-the-first-coronavirus/>

and a couple of newsreel films showing the conditions.

<https://youtu.be/JlrWU2OCUvU>

<https://youtu.be/SJfBU_MUpI0>

For a small place Salisbury hospitals have had some unusual circumstances,
Covid has obscured that the staff a few years ago did a fairly good job
dealing
with the unexpected and extraordinary situation of dealing with the
victims of a Russian Nerve attack.

GH

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 13:47, Recliner wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 12:06:18 +0000, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>
>>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>> extent, but given up on covid.
>>
>> Because it's evolved to become a pretty benign disease, much like the
>> common cold. We've not tried to eliminate colds,
>> either.
>
> They've been trying to cure colds for around 70 years, they haven't
> succeeded yet.
>

AIUI one of the problems is that there are around 400 different Common
Colds with very similar symptoms but caused by at least four totally
different classes of virus.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:57:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue, 22
>Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>
>>Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>extent, but given up on covid.
>
>It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you can
>only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>
>There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
><quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>
>That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now decided is
>a once-a-lifetime jab.
>
The vaccine for schoolchildren is geared toward the HPV varieties most
likely to be encountered but is not equally effective against others.
There does seem to be a bit of a potential lottery in matching
vaccines to virus types :-
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/hpv-human-papillomavirus-vaccine/
"Gardasil 9 protects against 9 types of HPV: 6, 11, 16, 18, 31, 33,
45, 52 and 58. Between them, types 16 and 18 are the cause of most
cervical cancers in the UK (more than 80%). Types 31, 33, 45, 52 and
58 cause an additional 15% of cervical cancers."

On 21/03/2022 13:10, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Reminds me of when I went freelance back in the 1990s. There were
> several jobs opening up at various tech colleges for teaching staff for
> the newly created media studies courses. As a tutor they wanted minimum
> 5 years experience, fair enough, but they also wanted a Media Studies
> degree which hadn't existed even 2 years before, never mind 5!

I think it had a different name when I was at school but was just seen
as a way of inflating the number of O or A Level passes. I doubt that it
impressed universities and employers. I can't even remember now if I
passed!

In message <t1cp2a$h60$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:13:14 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age
>>>>>>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your
>>>>>>>>>>>workforce. I doubt the railway could cope with losing any
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not
>>>>>>>>>>necessarily be the ones you can do without. Some key roles
>>>>>>>>>>will always need filling if they become vacant.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy,
>>>>>>>>> or if they are, a replacement will be recruited as they
>>>>>>>>>would for a normal retirement or resignation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>>>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>>>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>>>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>>>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>>>>>> industries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>>>>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway
>>>>>>>industry, with many (presumably most) positions being filled
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FSVO "internally". It doesn't help TOC A, if TOC B poaches lots of its
>>>>>> drivers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Except with a recruitment freeze they won't be able to poach.
>>>>
>>>> Only TOC A has a recruitment freeze, in this example.
>>>
>>> I thought we were discussing a situation where a recruitment freeze was
>>> imposed unilaterally on the entire industry, by GBR/DfT?
>>
>> The TOC example is just an analogy, other industries with multiple
>> employers (and I think TOCs are multiple employers, unless you want to
>> tell me your pay cheques come from DfT) might be in the same sector.
>>
>> For example FirstBus (or whatever it's called) versus Stagecoach. Or
>> Scottish Power versus whatever Southern Electickery is called this week.
>
>But we aren't discussing analogies in other industries. We're specifically
>discussing the stated requirement for TOCs to lose x% of staff.

The TOCs are the analogy, other industries [with their hiring freezes]
are the discussion.

OK, it obviously didn't work as an analogy.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1crcs$4gd$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:53:00 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 22/03/2022 13:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue,
>>22 Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>
>>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>> extent, but given up on covid.

>> It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you
>>can only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>> There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
>><quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>> That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now
>>decided is a once-a-lifetime jab.

>Quite a few vaccines need topping up, IIRC yellow fever only lasts 7
>years. Cut yourself on a rusty nail and you'll get a tetanus booster
>and so on.

Yes, not every traditional vaccine lasts a lifetime (or half a
lifetime), but most last more than six months.
--
Roland Perry

In message <7ngk3h5es46mh8k60l4rjoimcrvfes4o88@4ax.com>, at 22:01:57 on
Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 13:57:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue, 22
>>Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>
>>>Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>>extent, but given up on covid.
>>
>>It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you can
>>only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>>
>>There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
>><quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>>
>>That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now decided is
>>a once-a-lifetime jab.
>>
>The vaccine for schoolchildren is geared toward the HPV varieties most
>likely to be encountered but is not equally effective against others.

But would agree that for those it *is* effective against, it is now
considered a lifetime vaccine?

--
Roland Perry

In message <j9ujq0F4pm8U1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:45:20 on Tue, 22
Mar 2022, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>The common cold research centre got its test subjects by basically offering
>a free all expenses paid holiday with conditions not that different from a
>basic holiday camp of the era.

>Those who came forward were civilian volunteers not national servicemen as
>some claim.

Maybe this is the source of some of the confusion:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/aug/25/freedomofinformation.police

"Mr Bell maintains that as a young RAF national serviceman, he
volunteered three times between 1959 and 1961 after seeing a
notice at his base, RAF Aird Uig in Scotland, asking for
volunteers for common cold research at an unspecified military
establishment.

etc.

And the Common Cold research unit in USA used boot-camp military
recruits.
--
Roland Perry

On 23/03/2022 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1crcs$4gd$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:53:00 on Tue, 22 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 22/03/2022 13:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on Tue,
>>> 22  Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>>
>>>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>>> extent, but given up on covid.
>
>>>  It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then you
>>> can  only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>>>  There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid vaccinations
>>> <quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>>>  That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now
>>> decided is  a once-a-lifetime jab.
>
>> Quite a few vaccines need topping up, IIRC yellow fever only lasts 7
>> years. Cut yourself on a rusty nail and you'll get a tetanus booster
>> and so on.
>
> Yes, not every traditional vaccine lasts a lifetime (or half a
> lifetime), but most last more than six months.

The operative word being "most".

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t1elej$372$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:23:47 on Wed, 23 Mar
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 23/03/2022 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t1crcs$4gd$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:53:00 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 22/03/2022 13:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on
>>>>Tue, 22  Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of areas 10%
>>>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>>>
>>>>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>>>> extent, but given up on covid.
>>
>>>>  It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then
>>>>you can  only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>>>>  There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid
>>>>vaccinations <quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.

>>>>  That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now
>>>>decided is  a once-a-lifetime jab.
>>
>>> Quite a few vaccines need topping up, IIRC yellow fever only lasts 7
>>>years. Cut yourself on a rusty nail and you'll get a tetanus booster
>>>and so on.

>> Yes, not every traditional vaccine lasts a lifetime (or half a
>>lifetime), but most last more than six months.
>
>The operative word being "most".

Yes, but apart from Covid which other ones last only six months? The TV
adverts are trying to give the impression that "most" traditionally only
last six months, which is why we need to accept the need to "also" get
re-jabbed for Covid every six months.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1d4cr$j2o$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:26:35 on Tue, 22 Mar
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <5ukj3hlf3a81af4vng89pk243i1j69chve@4ax.com>, at 13:49:13 on
>> Tue, 22 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:15:14 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t1afq8$op2$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:23:04 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <1ubh3hpd598esooo4tbc773sr09ira242h@4ax.com>, at 17:03:40 on
>>>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:53:42 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t1a7kd$f3s$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:03:25 on Mon, 21 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think the government understands the need for
>>>>>>>>>>>ventilation to reduce covid transmission so I don't suppose
>>>>>>>>>>>we'll see any movement in this direction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They do understand the need, and do encourage greater ventilation
>>>>>>>>>> when possible. But things have changed with Omicron: we can all
>>>>>>>>>> expect to encounter it repeatedly, regardless of ventilation, masks,
>>>>>>>>>> or incessant hand cleaning. Either learn to live with it, or
>>>>>>>>>>become a
>>>>>>>>>> recluse.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So my elderly and frail friends, and my friends’
>>>>>>>>>granddaughter who is on chemo for leukaemia, will be prevented
>>>>>>>>>from travelling or taking part in normal activities, like
>>>>>>>>>nursery for the granddaughter, and her parents and baby sister will also be constrained.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don’t underestimate the effect removing precautions will have.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have already have. But hey, cull the sick, it reduces the demand on the
>>>>>>>> NHS. The ultra right wing knows it makes sense.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, do you recommend a permanent lockdown, with no meetings, no public
>>>>>>> transport and no on-site working?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, just sensible precautions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sensible precautions don’t stop the spread of Omicron. If you are
>>>>> vulnerable take your own precautions, ie wear a proper FFP3 mask.
>>>>
>>>> And that is precisely the sort of sensible precaution I had in mind.
>>>
>>> I trust your mask has been professionally fitted and adjusted?
>>
>> Yes, thanks. Despite being 90% of the way there already due to my
>> engineering training, I have had a medical professional do a refresher
>> course.
>
>Pre vaccines it was sensible to have a lockdown as death rates were
>relatively high (especially as you got past normal retirement age) and
>there was the prospect of vaccines turning up.
>
>Post vaccines the death rate is significantly lower. There may be better
>vaccines soon, however the state we now find ourselves in is that most of
>us will just get to feel mildly ill.

None of the people I know who have had Omicron would describe it as only
"Mildly" ill. Although there's some observer bias there because it's
only the ones laid up in bed for a week who mention it. A work colleague
tested positive on Monday (we both work from home, so no cross-infection
issues) and from what he said he was already very poorly.

As for new vaccines, they seem to have dropped off the news cycle. Last
I heard (and I'm not following it closely) they were declining to play
"whack a mole" with new variants, on the basis by the time a new vaccine
was on the streets that variant would have come and gone.

>If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your own*
>precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing your contact
>with others.

Exactly, and there some demographics where perhaps reducing the contact
is more advisable. A bit like avoiding trains full of drunken football
supporters. Our local secondary school is having a pretty torrid time,
and while I used to shop at the store [bigger than a corner shop,
smaller than a regular supermarket] around the time I realised "must
find some things to put towards dinner", which is when they were all
going home for the day and buying stuff on the way home, I've changed my
schedule. Went at 9am the other day, and the store was literally empty.

>Expecting others to go round wearing non FFP3 masks to save
>you is basically just like relying on a lucky rabbit’s foot.

If that's the situation, why were people ever told to wear masks?

>Might make you feel more secure but basically useless against the
>highly infectious Omicron variant. It might delay you getting infected,
>but it will be inevitable.

As far as I'm aware it's still regarded as an aerosol transmitted virus,
and coughing and sneezing without a mask on, feels like something which
might spread such aerosols further.
--
Roland Perry

On 23/03/2022 08:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t1elej$372$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:23:47 on Wed, 23 Mar
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 23/03/2022 08:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t1crcs$4gd$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:53:00 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 13:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <190dku9sht17s$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 12:06:18 on
>>>>> Tue,  22  Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Mar 2022 07:13:01 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mainly because it's the only such disease where in plenty of
>>>>>>> areas 10%
>>>>>>> of the population have it during any one week (it's 11% here). Also
>>>>>>> apparently the second most infectious one, behind measles.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Strange that we've eliminated smallpox, ebola, even measles to some
>>>>>> extent, but given up on covid.
>>>
>>>>>  It takes a generation (or more) to eradicate a disease. And then
>>>>> you  can  only do the ones which aren't mutating in real time.
>>>>>  There was a TV commercial last night saying that Covid
>>>>> vaccinations  <quote> like all others wear off so need to be boosted.
>
>>>>>  That'll be news to people given HPV which I think they've now
>>>>> decided is  a once-a-lifetime jab.
>>>
>>>> Quite a few vaccines need topping up, IIRC yellow fever only lasts 7
>>>> years. Cut yourself on a rusty nail and you'll get a tetanus booster
>>>> and so on.
>
>>>  Yes, not every traditional vaccine lasts a lifetime (or half a
>>> lifetime), but most last more than six months.
>>
>> The operative word being "most".
>
> Yes, but apart from Covid which other ones last only six months? The TV
> adverts are trying to give the impression that "most" traditionally only
> last six months, which is why we need to accept the need to "also" get
> re-jabbed for Covid every six months.

I got my booster nearly five months ago and it seems I wont be getting
another until "autumn" which will make it ten months.