Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t1pkmi$eed$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:18:26 on Sun, 27 Mar
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> The task, AIUI, is to understand the structure of the rhinovirus itself.
>>>> That would subsequently allow research for treatment across the board.
>>>> Unfortunately, however, they have not successfully cracked that.
>>>
>>> What would be the incentive for performing such expensive research?
>>>
>>> Would it save a lot of lives? No
>>>
>>> Would it make the pharma that developed such products a good financial
>>> return? Probably not.
>>
>> State backed research may crack the problem. The AZ jab was developed with
>> UK state funding on a shoe string budget. Vaccine research is really taking
>> off now, including vaccines against some cancers. Tackling the common cold
>> viruses might not now be so technically difficult. The best analogy I can
>> think of is you’d be laughed at thirty years ago if you said everyone would
>> be making video calls from handheld devices.
>
> Development cycles aren't the same in different industries/technologies.
>
> To pick a hook to hang this on, Orange launched 27 years ago, and by
> then there were plenty of people using mobile phones as modems. BT
> launched landline videophones in 1993, so that's 29 years ago.
>
> It doesn't take much to envisage the possibility of those two converging
> within 20yrs, perhaps the surprise was it took so long.
>
> On the other hand, fusion power has been "just around the corner" for
> more than 50yrs.
>
> Luckily, this graphic spans pretty much the 30yrs in question - lots of
> food for thought. Now, where can I get that 3D video conferencing?
>
> http://www.perry.co.uk/images/The-Future.jpg
>
> "Higher resolution scanner" seems to be missing from their list.
>
> And look! It has a train.

Just shows what a fool’s errand it is trying to predict the future.

In message <le2v3h9ova3o7mj5vl3r5ik32c6mhmakdv@4ax.com>, at 21:54:40 on
Sat, 26 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 15:24:40 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t1n9n7$sp1$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:47 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <gihp3hhuttnadu9d49q08lmnelk2aq2uir@4ax.com>, at 20:40:46 on
>>>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:00:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t1g6oc$m2p$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:16 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your
>>>>>>>>>>> own* precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing
>>>>>>>>>>> your contact with others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about those who cannot wear FFP3 masks?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me who that set comprises. In the early days there
>>>>>>>> were some issues with FFP2 masks popping off people's ears all
>>>>>>>>the time,
>>>>>>>> but now you can get a gadget that pulls the strings round the back of
>>>>>>>> you head instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One which I read in a comment on FB today was autistic people who are
>>>>>>> hypersensitive to things touching their face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Autistic people who are that sensitive will have many much greater
>>>>>> issues to deal with wrt Covid (and I'm not just saying that, a close
>>>>>> friend's day job is respite carer for autistic children whose parents
>>>>>> can no longer cope with them 24x7).
>>>>>>
>>>>> Autism can be very variable in the combinations of features and other
>>>>> physical or mental conditions which can accompany them.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I know.
>>>>
>>>>> Many will have their autism not immediately apparent to those they
>>>>> work/live with but with individual elements which are.
>>>>
>>>> Being hypersensitive about anything touching their face is not something
>>>> that's likely to have been overlooked by their carers.
>>>
>>>Not all autistic people who are sensitive to touch have or need carers
>>
>>I wonder how many who are so sensitive to touch they can't bear to wear
>>a mask, have no-one looking out for them.
>>
>The effect of wearing a face covering can be more subtle than that.
>One mask might cause discomfort while another does not because of the
>individual design not causing a particular uncomfortable sensation.
>There is no general presumption to be made that an autistic person
>cannot deal with it themselves.

What do you mean by "dealing with it". Sounds like the "it" is mainly
choosing the right design of mask.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1nmf2$r9$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:36:18 on Sat, 26 Mar 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1n9n7$sp1$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:47 on Sat, 26 Mar
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <gihp3hhuttnadu9d49q08lmnelk2aq2uir@4ax.com>, at 20:40:46 on
>>>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:00:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t1g6oc$m2p$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:16 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your
>>>>>>>>>>> own* precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing
>>>>>>>>>>> your contact with others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What about those who cannot wear FFP3 masks?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me who that set comprises. In the early days there
>>>>>>>> were some issues with FFP2 masks popping off people's ears all
>>>>>>>>the time,
>>>>>>>> but now you can get a gadget that pulls the strings round the back of
>>>>>>>> you head instead.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> One which I read in a comment on FB today was autistic people who are
>>>>>>> hypersensitive to things touching their face.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Autistic people who are that sensitive will have many much greater
>>>>>> issues to deal with wrt Covid (and I'm not just saying that, a close
>>>>>> friend's day job is respite carer for autistic children whose parents
>>>>>> can no longer cope with them 24x7).
>>>>>>
>>>>> Autism can be very variable in the combinations of features and other
>>>>> physical or mental conditions which can accompany them.
>>>>
>>>> Yes I know.
>>>>
>>>>> Many will have their autism not immediately apparent to those they
>>>>> work/live with but with individual elements which are.
>>>>
>>>> Being hypersensitive about anything touching their face is not something
>>>> that's likely to have been overlooked by their carers.
>>>
>>> Not all autistic people who are sensitive to touch have or need carers
>>
>> I wonder how many who are so sensitive to touch they can't bear to wear
>> a mask, have no-one looking out for them.
>
>The comment I saw about it, which prompted my post above, it was an
>autistic mother looking after her own autistic children.

There's one of those in my street. He's so autistic they can't find a
residential place, and external carers are very hard to find. Social
services/NHS seems to have walked away. She regards herself as his
primary carer.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>> customers.
>>>
>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>
>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>
>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>
>Breathing in your direction might be worse.

2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t1nmf2$r9$4@dont-email.me>, at 18:36:18 on Sat, 26 Mar 2022,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t1n9n8$sp1$2@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:48 on Sat, 26 Mar
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Greater Anglia is currently advertising to potential
>>>>>>>>>>passengers in East
>>>>>>>>>> Anglia (on various TV and catch-up channels) to the effect that "It's
>>>>>>>>>> not as dangerous as you think to travel on our trains, because we've
>>>>>>>>>> deep-cleaned them".
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was the slogan for public-transport operators a year ago.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Odd then, I first saw the adverts this weekend.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Things must move very slowly in time-warped Ely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I know the speed of light is still the same, so if I was
>>>>>> watching a programme yesterday, it was probably transmitted yesterday.
>>>>>> The culprit here is Greater Anglia.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but they're catering to yokels like you.
>>>>
>>>> I thought I'd revisit this, because I saw the advert again. The local
>>>> demographic splits into three main groups:
>>>>
>>>> Locals who have been here all their lives.
>>>> Townies who have retired to the country <waves>.
>>>> Incomers who use it as a dormitory for commuting to higher-waged places.
>>>>
>>>> There's a ripple effect in the latter, because quite a few people
>>>> commute into Ely (where they can't afford to live) from places like
>>>> March and Downham Market.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think any of these three groups is particularly interested in
>>>> using trains for leisure purposes, not least because the vast majority
>>>> are wedded to their cars.
>>>
>>> IYO what demographic do use trains for leisure travel? There must be some,
>>> because the GWML is packed today!
>>
>> Not very many from Fenland, I bet. Who were the ones Recliner was having
>> a dig at.
>
>But in general though, if you consider it unlikely that either the always
>lived here, the retired here, or the moved here for a job, are going to
>travel by train, who does that leave? They definitely weren't imaginary,
>and they were definitely full and standing!!

You have to remember that many of Greater Anglia services are 1tph
1-unit, which means there isn't a huge demand at the best of times.

If they are trying to fill up their Norwich expresses with born-again
rail travellers, it's going take more than preaching to the unconverted.
--
Roland Perry

In message <o3q04hphs3aftd8htn9mv2m30msg6dcdkr@4ax.com>, at 14:38:24 on
Sun, 27 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 11:33:55 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <S+NBJpiaByPiFA7N@perry.uk>, at 14:16:58 on Sat, 26 Mar 2022,
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>I suspect the adverts must be for people in East London wanting to go to
>>>the seaside via Colchester.
>>>
>>>Meanwhile, GA has sawn off the branch it's sitting on, as far as people
>>>here are concerned, with this news about Easter:
>>>
>>> "Railway lines between King's Lynn and London will be blocked
>>> this Easter bank holiday weekend.
>>>
>>> Works are taking place in the East of England, blocking lines
>>> through Cambridgeshire, Essex and Hertfordshire.
>>>
>>> Greater Anglia passengers are set to face a full line closure
>>> all weekend at Bishop's Stortford - between Cambridge and
>>> London Liverpool Street.
>>>
>>> On Easter Sunday (April 17), works are taking place on the line
>>> between Ely and King's Lynn.
>>>
>>> There will be no Great Northern or Greater Anglia trains to
>>> Littleport, Downham Market, Watlington or King's Lynn when the
>>> line is closed."
>>
>>The railways collectively doing warm-up today:
>>
>>Reduced service on ECML/GN/TL, crawling round the Hertford Loop.
>>Buses from Cambridge to Ely.
>>Buses from Peterborough to Ely.
>>Ally Pally to Welwyn Garden City bustituted, and separately WGC to
>> Stevenage and Hertford North to Stevenage (locals)
>>
>>It's enough to convince our jolly holiday makers (or even just "let's go
>>see mum on Mothers Day" to buy a car and never try to use a train ever
>>again.
>
>As always, you've only looked at your local TOCs.

Actually I skimmed all[1] of them, but as the topic here is GA trying to
woo people back onto *their* trains, it makes perfect sense to see how
they are encouraging that in the field, in this region.

>It turns out that other routes are disrupted, too, even Manchester
>Metrolink (the trams weren't serving Piccadilly yesterday).

[1] I've left out the entries which are specific to one train.

Buses replace trains between Beckenham Junction and Orpington until
approximately 12:30 on Sunday 27 March

Amended services to / from Reigate on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Chichester and Havant all day and between
Chichester and Barnham early morning / late night on Sunday 27 March
panel

Buses replace evening / morning trains between Polegate and Eastbourne /
Hastings / Ore on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Amended EMR service to from London St Pancras International late night
Saturday 26 and all day Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Birmingham New Street and Tame Bridge
Parkway via Aston on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Crianlarich and Fort Willam / Mallaig from
Saturday 19 to Sunday 27 March

No trains between Rutherglen and Exhibition Centre via Glasgow Central
Low Level from Sunday 13 March to Sunday 8 May

No morning trains before 09:00 between Princes Risborough and Denham
Golf Club on Sunday 27 March

Amended early morning services to / from London Bridge on Sunday 27
March

Amended services between Three Bridges and Purley on Sunday 27 March
More information on Amended services between Three Bridges and Purley on
Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Alexandra Palace and Stevenage and between
Cambridge and Ely on Sunday 27 March

Amended services in the Luton area on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March
More information on Amended services in the Luton area on Saturday 26
and Sunday 27 March

Amended services between Hertford North / Welwyn Garden City and
Moorgate on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Amended Hull trains service on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Amended services on the East London Line on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
March

Amended service between Richmond / Clapham Junction and Stratford on
Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Bridgend and Maesteg on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace evening trains between Hereford and Newport on Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains between Hamilton Square and Hooton on Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains between Birmingham Snow Hill and
Stratford-upon-Avon on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains to / from Northampton on Sunday 27 March panel

Buses replace morning trains between Crewe and Liverpool South Parkway
on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Hounslow and Windsor & Eton Riverside /
Ascot / Addlestone on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains in the Petersfield area on Saturday 26 and Sunday
27 March

Amended early morning service to / from Westbury on Sunday 27 March

Amended services to / from London Paddington on Sunday 27 March

Amended TransPennine Express services between Manchester Piccadilly and
Stalybridge on Sunday 27 March

No trains between Darlington and Redcar Central on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Tunbridge Wells and Battle on Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains between Dover Priory and Ramsgate on Sunday 27
March

No services via Strood and Gravesend on Sunday 27 March

No trains via Lea Bridge on Sunday 27 March

Amended evening / morning LNER services to / from Newcastle on Saturday
26 and Sunday 27 March

No Southern trains to / from London Victoria on Saturday 26 and Sunday
27 March

Reduced TfL Rail service to / from Hayes & Harlington on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Guildford and Redhill / Gatwick Airport on
Sunday 27 March

No trains to / from London Liverpool Street on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains between Cardiff Central / Port Talbot Parkway and
Swansea on Sunday 27 March

Amended morning trains in the Taunton / Bridgwater area on Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains before 09:30 between Reading and Basingstoke on
Sunday 27 March

Buses replace evening / morning trains to / from Burnham / Taplow on
Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Amended morning trains between Bedwyn and Newbury on Saturday 26 and
Sunday 27 March

Amended service to / from London Kings Cross on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa / Worcester
Foregate Street on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

Amended trains between Doncaster and York on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27
March

Buses replace trains between Southampton and Bournemouth on Saturday 26
and Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Peterborough and Ely / Cambridge on Sunday
27 March

Amended service to / from Grays on Saturday 26 and Sunday 27 March

No c2c trains to / from London Liverpool Street on Saturday 26 and
Sunday 27 March

No trains between Preston and Wigan / Manchester before 10:45 on Sunday
27 March

Buses replace trains between Manchester Piccadilly and Hadfield /
Glossop on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Middlesbrough and Hartlepool / Darlington
on Sunday 27 March

Buses replace trains between Doncaster and Goole on Saturday 26 and
Sunday 27 March

Amended services between Stafford and Crewe on Sunday 27 March

Amended morning Avanti West Coast services to / from Liverpool Lime
Street on Sunday 27 March

Amended trains in the Llandudno Junction / Bangor area on Saturday 26

Amended services to / from Drumry from Sunday 23 January to Saturday 11
June
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>> customers.
>>>>
>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>
>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>
>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>
>>Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>
>2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.

No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.

On 27/03/2022 14:36, Recliner wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:57:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> What happened to Herd immunity. HaHa! Bonk.
>>>>
>>>> We've pretty much reached herd immunity, thanks to the vaccines. That's
>>>> why most of us don't worry about it any more.
>>>
>>> Not even the 1:20 (or whatever) who today have Covid? Some catching
>>> Omicron for a second time.
>>>
>>
>> Sure, though it's probably a different strain each time. Face it: Omicron
>> is all around us, and we'll all be exposed to it repeatedly. You can't hide
>>from it, so learn to live with it.
>>
>> I got pinged today (for the first time). Apparently I encountered a
>> positive case last Sunday, when I was in busy airports, buses, a full
>> plane, etc. Did I catch it? I don't know, and am not worried. I rather
>> hope I did, as it'll act as an Omicron booster shot.
>
> Follow-up:
>
> I did a LFT test today, and tested positive (for the first time). I'm delighted, as it will act as my Omicron booster
> shot, and my immunity level will be even higher than before. Needless to say, the symptoms are no more than minor winter
> sniffles.
>
> Excellent!

I got a positive LFT on Wednesday. I feel a lot worse than a minor
winter sniffle.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:18:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:

> State backed research may crack the problem. The AZ jab was developed with
> UK state funding on a shoe string budget.

You say that as if is was bathtub research done on the cheap by a
couple of grad students.

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-vaccine-idUSKBN27905E
<quote>
“In addition to the manufacturing costs, the company is incurring
costs in excess of $1 billion globally that include clinical
development, regulatory, distribution, pharmacovigilance and other
expenses”, an AstraZeneca spokesman said in a statement.
</>
and:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/05/21/astrazeneca-receives-1-billion-from-us-government-to-produce-oxford-coronavirus-vaccine/?sh=7f14ffaa61d1

Some bathtub!

mechanic <mechanic@example.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:18:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:
>
>> State backed research may crack the problem. The AZ jab was developed with
>> UK state funding on a shoe string budget.
>
> You say that as if is was bathtub research done on the cheap by a
> couple of grad students.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-astrazeneca-vaccine-idUSKBN27905E
> <quote>
> “In addition to the manufacturing costs, the company is incurring
> costs in excess of $1 billion globally that include clinical
> development, regulatory, distribution, pharmacovigilance and other
> expenses”, an AstraZeneca spokesman said in a statement.
> </>
> and:
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/isabeltogoh/2020/05/21/astrazeneca-receives-1-billion-from-us-government-to-produce-oxford-coronavirus-vaccine/?sh=7f14ffaa61d1
>
> Some bathtub!
>

The initial development was state funded. AZ only came on board when the
vaccine was industrialised to get production at scale. Initial clinical
trials were done by academic departments attached to hospitals. My Dr son
got one of the early jabs via this.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 21/03/2022 11:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t182ci$mk1$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:21:38 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:40:55 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of the
>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your workforce. I doubt
>>>>>> the railway could cope with losing any more than that.
>>>>>
>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>
>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then; or if they
>>>> are, a replacement will be recruited as they would for a normal retirement
>>>> or resignation.
>>>
>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>> from a different employer.
>>>
>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>> industries.
>>
>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>
>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry, with many
>> (presumably most) positions being filled internally; this means your
>> shortage of staff is more likely to occur among guards and catering staff,
>> as they move on to other roles.
>>
>
> I suspect guards are amongst the roles the treasury regard as
> supernumerary.

I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…

--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/03/2022 11:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t182ci$mk1$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:21:38 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:40:55 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of the
>>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your workforce. I doubt
>>>>>>> the railway could cope with losing any more than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then; or if they
>>>>> are, a replacement will be recruited as they would for a normal retirement
>>>>> or resignation.
>>>>
>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>
>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>> industries.
>>>
>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>
>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry, with many
>>> (presumably most) positions being filled internally; this means your
>>> shortage of staff is more likely to occur among guards and catering staff,
>>> as they move on to other roles.
>>>
>>
>> I suspect guards are amongst the roles the treasury regard as
>> supernumerary.
>
> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>

How does this differ to existing routes without guards? Presumably the same
methods of ticket checking would be used.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:13:39 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <le2v3h9ova3o7mj5vl3r5ik32c6mhmakdv@4ax.com>, at 21:54:40 on
>Sat, 26 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sat, 26 Mar 2022 15:24:40 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <t1n9n7$sp1$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:58:47 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <gihp3hhuttnadu9d49q08lmnelk2aq2uir@4ax.com>, at 20:40:46 on
>>>>> Thu, 24 Mar 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:00:18 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t1g6oc$m2p$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:16 on Wed, 23 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If you are susceptible for whatever reason you need to take *your
>>>>>>>>>>>> own* precautions, wearing proper FFP3 masks and probably reducing
>>>>>>>>>>>> your contact with others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What about those who cannot wear FFP3 masks?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not clear to me who that set comprises. In the early days there
>>>>>>>>> were some issues with FFP2 masks popping off people's ears all
>>>>>>>>>the time,
>>>>>>>>> but now you can get a gadget that pulls the strings round the back of
>>>>>>>>> you head instead.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One which I read in a comment on FB today was autistic people who are
>>>>>>>> hypersensitive to things touching their face.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Autistic people who are that sensitive will have many much greater
>>>>>>> issues to deal with wrt Covid (and I'm not just saying that, a close
>>>>>>> friend's day job is respite carer for autistic children whose parents
>>>>>>> can no longer cope with them 24x7).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Autism can be very variable in the combinations of features and other
>>>>>> physical or mental conditions which can accompany them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes I know.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Many will have their autism not immediately apparent to those they
>>>>>> work/live with but with individual elements which are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Being hypersensitive about anything touching their face is not something
>>>>> that's likely to have been overlooked by their carers.
>>>>
>>>>Not all autistic people who are sensitive to touch have or need carers
>>>
>>>I wonder how many who are so sensitive to touch they can't bear to wear
>>>a mask, have no-one looking out for them.
>>>
>>The effect of wearing a face covering can be more subtle than that.
>>One mask might cause discomfort while another does not because of the
>>individual design not causing a particular uncomfortable sensation.
>>There is no general presumption to be made that an autistic person
>>cannot deal with it themselves.
>
>What do you mean by "dealing with it". Sounds like the "it" is mainly
>choosing the right design of mask.
>
Some will not wear a mask because they tried it, experienced distress
and expecr the same distress with any mask; others will be able to
appreciate that a different mask might not be so distressing. If you
have met one autistic person then you have met one autistic person.

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/03/2022 11:33, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t182ci$mk1$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:21:38 on Sun, 20 Mar
>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 20 Mar 2022 13:40:55 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A 5 year hiring freeze is only going to change the mean age of the
>>>>>>> workforce by 5 years. It gets rid of roughly 25% of your workforce. I doubt
>>>>>>> the railway could cope with losing any more than that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You still have the problem that the people you lose may not necessarily
>>>>>> be the ones you can do without. Some key roles will always need filling
>>>>>> if they become vacant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Those won't be the ones eligible for voluntary redundancy, then; or if they
>>>>> are, a replacement will be recruited as they would for a normal retirement
>>>>> or resignation.
>>>>
>>>> A hiring freeze also affects an organisation's ability to replace key
>>>> workers who leave *other* than on any form of redundancy scheme. For
>>>> example if they retire (ago or ill health) or just get a better offer
>>>> from a different employer.
>>>>
>>>> Most hiring freezes will also come with a ban on bribing people to
>>>> stay, even if that were otherwise possible in more than a handful of
>>>> industries.
>>>
>>> This is true, if the hiring freeze is throughout the organisation and
>>> non-negotiable, eg "we won't be able to run trains unless we recruit X".
>>>
>>> There's also generally a flow upwards within in railway industry, with many
>>> (presumably most) positions being filled internally; this means your
>>> shortage of staff is more likely to occur among guards and catering staff,
>>> as they move on to other roles.
>>>
>>
>> I suspect guards are amongst the roles the treasury regard as
>> supernumerary.
>
> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>

How many guards actually check tickets on routes with gated stations these
days? Don't they just hide in the back cab?

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>
>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>
>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>
>>>Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>
>>2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>
>No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>
Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
targer.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>
>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>
>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>
>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>
> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
> targer.
>

Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>
>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>
>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>
>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>> targer.
>>
>
>Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>
It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
presence to enable infection.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>
>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>> targer.
>>>
>>
>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>
> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
> presence to enable infection.
>

Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
airway?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:

>>
>> I wonder who will check e-tickets on board if there are no guards? As soon
>> as those passengers who have a morally ambivalent view about paying realise
>> what’s going on, then ticket revenues will start to go down…
>>
>
> How many guards actually check tickets on routes with gated stations these
> days? Don't they just hide in the back cab?
>
>

They did a check on the Waterloo-Salisbury service I used last weekend.

Which leads me to a little grumble , there was a queue to get through the
ticket barriers at Salisbury,
why ? Because a load of people with their travel tickets held
electronically on their smartphones did not seem to know how to operate the
damn things so the gates could accept them, some silly bints were doing a
version of the supermarket purse surprise when they found they had to
retrieve them from bags or pockets at the moment they were required rather
than being prepared before , fortunately the station staff person opened
the side gate and let those of us with a normal ticket pass
while giving them a quick glance to clear the backlog.

GH

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:54:54 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>>
>>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>>> targer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>>
>> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
>> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
>> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
>> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
>> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
>> presence to enable infection.
>>
>
>Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
>airway?
>
Your airway starts at your nose and mouth. Coughing and sneezing can
cause a heavier and more concentrated stream of saliva than you get
with an aerosol.

"The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small
liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe.
Another person can then contract the virus when infectious particles
that pass through the air are inhaled at short range (this is often
called short-range aerosol or short-range airborne transmission) or if
infectious particles come into direct contact with the eyes, nose, or
mouth (droplet transmission)."
https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 27/03/2022 14:36, Recliner wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:57:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> What happened to Herd immunity. HaHa! Bonk.
>>>>>
>>>>> We've pretty much reached herd immunity, thanks to the vaccines. That's
>>>>> why most of us don't worry about it any more.
>>>>
>>>> Not even the 1:20 (or whatever) who today have Covid? Some catching
>>>> Omicron for a second time.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sure, though it's probably a different strain each time. Face it: Omicron
>>> is all around us, and we'll all be exposed to it repeatedly. You can't hide
>>> from it, so learn to live with it.
>>>
>>> I got pinged today (for the first time). Apparently I encountered a
>>> positive case last Sunday, when I was in busy airports, buses, a full
>>> plane, etc. Did I catch it? I don't know, and am not worried. I rather
>>> hope I did, as it'll act as an Omicron booster shot.
>>
>> Follow-up:
>>
>> I did a LFT test today, and tested positive (for the first time). I'm
>> delighted, as it will act as my Omicron booster
>> shot, and my immunity level will be even higher than before. Needless to
>> say, the symptoms are no more than minor winter
>> sniffles.
>>
>> Excellent!
>
> I got a positive LFT on Wednesday. I feel a lot worse than a minor
> winter sniffle.
>

And that's despite all your stringent precautions? It proves that there's
no escaping Omicron, whether you're careful or not.

You need to take the positive view: you have now had your booster shot, are
now protected against Omicron, and any future infections will be much
milder. Rejoice that you can now get out more and travel freely!

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:54:54 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>>>> targer.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>>>
>>> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
>>> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
>>> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
>>> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
>>> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
>>> presence to enable infection.
>>>
>>
>> Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
>> airway?
>>
> Your airway starts at your nose and mouth. Coughing and sneezing can
> cause a heavier and more concentrated stream of saliva than you get
> with an aerosol.
>
> "The virus can spread from an infected person’s mouth or nose in small
> liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe.
> Another person can then contract the virus when infectious particles
> that pass through the air are inhaled at short range (this is often
> called short-range aerosol or short-range airborne transmission) or if
> infectious particles come into direct contact with the eyes, nose, or
> mouth (droplet transmission)."
> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted
>

A mask wearer is presumably reasonably well protected against droplets
landing on their mouth or nostrils and then breathing in the particles. Is
there any evidence that the virus can be transmitted via the eyes?

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:15:19 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:54:54 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 20:46:35 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:53:01 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 15:15:43 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t1o8bo$p0d$1@dont-email.me>, at 23:41:44 on Sat, 26 Mar
>>>>>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <atoe0djbfzse$.dlg@example1357.net>, at 19:37:01 on Thu, 24
>>>>>>>>>> Mar 2022, mechanic <mechanic@example.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 11:06:55 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I first saw them at scale in a pub which had just reopened with
>>>>>>>>>>>> stringent Covid precautions. Tables separated, pre-booked only, one-way
>>>>>>>>>>>> system, one person in toilets at a time, table service only etc. It was
>>>>>>>>>>>> not at all clear what protection they gave either the waitresses or
>>>>>>>>>>>> customers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That was when we were fed the 'droplets' theory, science is now
>>>>>>>>>>> reluctantly moving to the aerosol idea where earlier instructions to
>>>>>>>>>>> clean surfaces and wash hands have given way to more emphasis on
>>>>>>>>>>> ventilation and effective masks.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suppose I always did think it was mainly transmitted by the smaller
>>>>>>>>>> droplets know trendily known as aerosols, rather than spit and sneeze.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Still wouldn't want a Covid person to spit in my face though.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Breathing in your direction might be worse.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2metres, 30 seconds, and both masked, shouldn't be an issue.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, probably not, but nor would spitting in those circumstances.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Saliva is generally a far better carrier of infection if it lands on
>>>>>> targer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you sure that's true of Covid? It's an airborne virus.
>>>>>
>>>> It isn't just airborne. The virus is present in saliva, mucous and
>>>> other bodily secretions. The difference with saliva (in original form)
>>>> is the practical need for more direct transmission from infection
>>>> source to entry route (e.g. snogging, spitting on target etc.) than is
>>>> needed with aerosols which generally require a relatively longer
>>>> presence to enable infection.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Would virus particles present in saliva get into a potential victim's
>>> airway?
>>>
>> Your airway starts at your nose and mouth. Coughing and sneezing can
>> cause a heavier and more concentrated stream of saliva than you get
>> with an aerosol.
>>
>> "The virus can spread from an infected person?s mouth or nose in small
>> liquid particles when they cough, sneeze, speak, sing or breathe.
>> Another person can then contract the virus when infectious particles
>> that pass through the air are inhaled at short range (this is often
>> called short-range aerosol or short-range airborne transmission) or if
>> infectious particles come into direct contact with the eyes, nose, or
>> mouth (droplet transmission)."
>> https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/question-and-answers-hub/q-a-detail/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-how-is-it-transmitted
>>
>
>A mask wearer is presumably reasonably well protected against droplets
>landing on their mouth or nostrils and then breathing in the particles. Is
>there any evidence that the virus can be transmitted via the eyes?
>
Your eyes drain internally to your nose via the nasolacrimal duct;
infection via the eye itself is less common. Eye protection is
standard kit for ambulance and first aid personnel dealing with
potential COVID patients.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:15:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/03/2022 14:36, Recliner wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:57:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> What happened to Herd immunity. HaHa! Bonk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We've pretty much reached herd immunity, thanks to the vaccines. That's
>>>>>> why most of us don't worry about it any more.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even the 1:20 (or whatever) who today have Covid? Some catching
>>>>> Omicron for a second time.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure, though it's probably a different strain each time. Face it: Omicron
>>>> is all around us, and we'll all be exposed to it repeatedly. You can't hide
>>>> from it, so learn to live with it.
>>>>
>>>> I got pinged today (for the first time). Apparently I encountered a
>>>> positive case last Sunday, when I was in busy airports, buses, a full
>>>> plane, etc. Did I catch it? I don't know, and am not worried. I rather
>>>> hope I did, as it'll act as an Omicron booster shot.
>>>
>>> Follow-up:
>>>
>>> I did a LFT test today, and tested positive (for the first time). I'm
>>> delighted, as it will act as my Omicron booster
>>> shot, and my immunity level will be even higher than before. Needless to
>>> say, the symptoms are no more than minor winter
>>> sniffles.
>>>
>>> Excellent!
>>
>> I got a positive LFT on Wednesday. I feel a lot worse than a minor
>> winter sniffle.
>>
>
>And that's despite all your stringent precautions? It proves that there's
>no escaping Omicron, whether you're careful or not.
>
>You need to take the positive view: you have now had your booster shot, are
>now protected against Omicron, and any future infections will be much
>milder. Rejoice that you can now get out more and travel freely!
>
As with e.g. influenza, there is no guarantee that a later infection
will be milder but there might be more immunity to being infected.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:15:18 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/03/2022 14:36, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 00:57:48 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <fd2h3hl91adh3h8qap289cdlulek0i9ppq@4ax.com>, at 14:26:56 on
>>>>>> Mon, 21 Mar 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What happened to Herd immunity. HaHa! Bonk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We've pretty much reached herd immunity, thanks to the vaccines. That's
>>>>>>> why most of us don't worry about it any more.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not even the 1:20 (or whatever) who today have Covid? Some catching
>>>>>> Omicron for a second time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sure, though it's probably a different strain each time. Face it: Omicron
>>>>> is all around us, and we'll all be exposed to it repeatedly. You can't hide
>>>>> from it, so learn to live with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I got pinged today (for the first time). Apparently I encountered a
>>>>> positive case last Sunday, when I was in busy airports, buses, a full
>>>>> plane, etc. Did I catch it? I don't know, and am not worried. I rather
>>>>> hope I did, as it'll act as an Omicron booster shot.
>>>>
>>>> Follow-up:
>>>>
>>>> I did a LFT test today, and tested positive (for the first time). I'm
>>>> delighted, as it will act as my Omicron booster
>>>> shot, and my immunity level will be even higher than before. Needless to
>>>> say, the symptoms are no more than minor winter
>>>> sniffles.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent!
>>>
>>> I got a positive LFT on Wednesday. I feel a lot worse than a minor
>>> winter sniffle.
>>>
>>
>> And that's despite all your stringent precautions? It proves that there's
>> no escaping Omicron, whether you're careful or not.
>>
>> You need to take the positive view: you have now had your booster shot, are
>> now protected against Omicron, and any future infections will be much
>> milder. Rejoice that you can now get out more and travel freely!
>>
> As with e.g. influenza, there is no guarantee that a later infection
> will be milder but there might be more immunity to being infected.
>

With Covid, there's ample evidence that vaccinations and prior infections
both reduce the likelihood of subsequent infection (for at least 3-6
months) and the severity of such infections.

And, an infection with the latest flavour of Omicron very likely gives
better immunity against the next Omicron descendant than does a legacy
booster shot still targeted on the original Wuhan wild strain. So, someone
who's had three jabs plus an Omicron infection is now very well protected,
both against new infection and particularly against severe infection.