On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
>
> According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
> temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter - Eston
> Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main transmitters that
> carry COM7.
Eston Nab also had COM 4/5/6 added, and the PSBs significantly increased
in power  week or so after the fire, in an attempt to restore all of
them to a wider area.
It's basically been acting as a replace Bilsdale, rather than the small
local relay that it was.

Full story on mb21

COM 7 and local mux were also added.

It brings up an interesting question whether the COMs should be removed
again, and Eston restored to being a flea-powered Freeview-Lite relay  !

COM7 isn't really an issue, it's only got 8 months left to run anyway

"James Heaton" <heatonandmoore@gmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ska5b8$1ai4$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> "Andy Burns" wrote in message news:isqq1qFc554U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> NY wrote:
>
>> I wonder why the description says "together with 10 no. equipment
>> cabinets"
>
>>It harks back to "old hat" phrasing, but it's still pretty standard
>>language on quotes and specs.
>
>
> It is pretty standard planning speak.
>
> Life can get a bit confusing when it's written as 3 2 bed houses and 2 3
> bed houses
>
> So I would write that up as 3no 2b4p houses and 2no 3b5p houses.

I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what is the "p" in "2b4p"
and "3b5p". I could understand if it was "r" for "reception rooms" (lounge,
dining room etc).

NY wrote:

> James Heaton wrote:
>
>> It is pretty standard planning speak.

Mum used to be a shorthand typist for a firm manufacturing gensets and pumps, I
remember the quotes and invoices would be phrased similarly

5 no 3hp diesel engines @ GBP xxx
2 no 4kW alternators @ GBP yyy

>> Life can get a bit confusing when it's written as 3 2 bed houses and 2 3 bed
>> houses
>>
>> So I would write that up as 3no 2b4p houses and 2no 3b5p houses.
>
> I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what is the "p" in "2b4p" and
> "3b5p". I could understand if it was "r" for "reception rooms" (lounge, dining
> room etc).

person?

On Fri 15/10/2021 11:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> NY wrote:
>
>> James Heaton wrote:
>>> It is pretty standard planning speak.
>
> Mum used to be a shorthand typist for a firm manufacturing gensets and
> pumps, I remember the quotes and invoices would be phrased similarly
>
> 5 no 3hp diesel engines @ GBP xxx
> 2 no 4kW alternators @ GBP yyy
>
>>> Life can get a bit confusing when it's written as 3 2 bed houses and
>>> 2 3 bed houses
>>>
>>> So I would write that up as 3no 2b4p houses and 2no 3b5p houses.
>>
>> I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what is the "p" in
>> "2b4p" and "3b5p". I could understand if it was "r" for "reception
>> rooms" (lounge, dining room etc).
>
> person?

These days the No. is usually replaced with either Qty 5 or 5 qty

On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>
> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
>
> According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
> temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter - Eston
> Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main transmitters that
> carry COM7.
>
> Bob.
>

According to: https://www.bilsdalemast.co.uk/

The switch on of the 80-metre mast following extensive testing means
that people across the area will now need to retune their TV sets. A
guide on how to do this can be found here.

However, not everyone is covered by the switch on, so we're rolling out
a Help and Support Scheme for people in these so-called “not-spot” areas
where TV services are still affected. It is estimated that 23,000 homes
fall into this category.

Specific groups of affected people are being prioritised at this stage,
and local charities across the region are helping us reach them. The
specific groups being prioritised are those over 65, the clinically
vulnerable and other vulnerable people with carers.

For these groups, a freephone line is available for help at the bottom
of the page. Engineers can then be scheduled to visit the homes of
people in those affected areas and in those groups.

In addition, people living in the “not-spot” areas where services are
not restored by the switch on will receive a voucher. The voucher can be
redeemed in store and online, and more details will follow.

The value covers the cost of an alternative fix which can be chosen from
a range of products which will provide ways to receive free to air TV,
including a Roku stick device and an Amazon Fire TV Stick. Letters will
be sent out to homes on how to claim the vouchers.

An online form will also be available for completion by those in the
priority categories, with further help and support being announced in
due course. We are working closely with local authorities, housing
associations and charities to track down those affected and to provide
support and information.

So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
and has poor or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
viable solution?

On 15/10/2021 12:20, SH wrote:
> So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
> and has poor  or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
> viable solution?

Freesat. Then it turns out there's nowhere for a dish.

Bill

williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
> On 15/10/2021 12:20, SH wrote:
>> So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
>> and has poor  or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
>> viable solution?
>
> Freesat. Then it turns out there's nowhere for a dish.
>
> Bill
>

Just out if interest Bill, in your experience what proportion of properties
can’t get a working dish?

In article <isssjhFo97bU1@mid.individual.net>,
Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
> > In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
> >
> > https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
> >
> > According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
> > temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter -
> > Eston Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main
> > transmitters that carry COM7.

> Eston Nab also had COM 4/5/6 added, and the PSBs significantly
> increased in power week or so after the fire, in an attempt to
> restore all of them to a wider area. It's basically been acting as
> a replace Bilsdale, rather than the small local relay that it was.

It's an ill wind...

> Full story on mb21

> COM 7 and local mux were also added.

> It brings up an interesting question whether the COMs should be
> removed again, and Eston restored to being a flea-powered
> Freeview-Lite relay !

> COM7 isn't really an issue, it's only got 8 months left to run
> anyway

Thanks for that Mark.

Any rumours about the end of COM7? Just switch it off or any
possibility of a change to T2 for one or more of the major 6?

Bob.

On 15/10/2021 13:16, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <isssjhFo97bU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> COM7 isn't really an issue, it's only got 8 months left to run
>> anyway
> Thanks for that Mark.
>
> Any rumours about the end of COM7? Just switch it off or any
> possibility of a change to T2 for one or more of the major 6?
>
I hear nothing. Future development of DTT seems to have totally
stagnated. Indeed it's going backwards you could argue !

On 15/10/2021 13:34, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 15/10/2021 13:16, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <isssjhFo97bU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>     Mark Carver <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> COM7 isn't really an issue, it's only got 8 months left to run
>>> anyway
>> Thanks for that Mark.
>>
>> Any rumours about the end of COM7? Just switch it off or any
>> possibility of a change to T2 for one or more of the major 6?
>>
> I hear nothing. Future development of DTT seems to have totally
> stagnated. Indeed it's going backwards you could argue !

I am looking forward to all the T1 muxes to switch to T2.

Why?

All my TVs except 1 can support Freeview HD AND Freesat HD AND are "smart"

The Freeview SD only telly is in the kitchen and I would love to be able
to give SWMBO a good reason as to why it should be replaced...... :-)

(I also have freesat and ethernet to the kitchen location so a LG smart
TV with both freeview HD and freesat HD in a small enough size would be
very appealing :-) )

In article <skbn7r$94o$1@dont-email.me>,
Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> On Fri 15/10/2021 11:15, Andy Burns wrote:
> > NY wrote:
> >
> >> James Heaton wrote:
> >>> It is pretty standard planning speak.
> >
> > Mum used to be a shorthand typist for a firm manufacturing gensets and
> > pumps, I remember the quotes and invoices would be phrased similarly
> >
> > 5 no 3hp diesel engines @ GBP xxx
> > 2 no 4kW alternators @ GBP yyy
> >
> >>> Life can get a bit confusing when it's written as 3 2 bed houses and
> >>> 2 3 bed houses
> >>>
> >>> So I would write that up as 3no 2b4p houses and 2no 3b5p houses.
> >>
> >> I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what is the "p" in
> >> "2b4p" and "3b5p". I could understand if it was "r" for "reception
> >> rooms" (lounge, dining room etc).
> >
> > person?

> These days the No. is usually replaced with either Qty 5 or 5 qty

' or 5 off'

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Fri 15/10/2021 12:20, SH wrote:
> On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>     Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
>>
>> According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
>> temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter - Eston
>> Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main transmitters that
>> carry COM7.
>>
>> Bob.
>>
>
> According to: https://www.bilsdalemast.co.uk/
>
>
> The switch on of the 80-metre mast following extensive testing means
> that people across the area will now need to retune their TV sets. A
> guide on how to do this can be found here.
>
> However, not everyone is covered by the switch on, so we're rolling out
> a Help and Support Scheme for people in these so-called “not-spot” areas
> where TV services are still affected. It is estimated that 23,000 homes
> fall into this category.
>
> Specific groups of affected people are being prioritised at this stage,
> and local charities across the region are helping us reach them. The
> specific groups being prioritised are those over 65, the clinically
> vulnerable and other vulnerable people with carers.
>
> For these groups, a freephone line is available for help at the bottom
> of the page. Engineers can then be scheduled to visit the homes of
> people in those affected areas and in those groups.
>
> In addition, people living in the “not-spot” areas where services are
> not restored by the switch on will receive a voucher. The voucher can be
> redeemed in store and online, and more details will follow.
>
> The value covers the cost of an alternative fix which can be chosen from
> a range of products which will provide ways to receive free to air TV,
> including a Roku stick device and an Amazon Fire TV Stick. Letters will
> be sent out to homes on how to claim the vouchers.
>
> An online form will also be available for completion by those in the
> priority categories, with further help and support being announced in
> due course. We are working closely with local authorities, housing
> associations and charities to track down those affected and to provide
> support and information.
>
> So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
> and has poor  or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
> viable solution?

A Freesat box?

On 15/10/2021 12:46, Tweed wrote:
> williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>> On 15/10/2021 12:20, SH wrote:
>>> So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
>>> and has poor  or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
>>> viable solution?
>>
>> Freesat. Then it turns out there's nowhere for a dish.
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
> Just out if interest Bill, in your experience what proportion of properties
> can’t get a working dish?
>
In my part of the world not many. The problems are when there's a tall
building or trees in the way. There are quite large shadow areas in the
cities of course. In Wensleydale and Swaledale though there are a lot of
listed buildings and touchy landlords.

Sky installers tend to throw in the towel at the slightest difficulty.
This is good for independent installers. It's usually possible to find a
solution and the customer is then massively grateful.

Bill

On Fri 15/10/2021 19:52, williamwright wrote:
> On 15/10/2021 12:46, Tweed wrote:
>> williamwright <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:
>>> On 15/10/2021 12:20, SH wrote:
>>>> So what if the viewer is unable to recieve the temporary Bilsdale mast
>>>> and has poor  or no broadband, the Roku or Fire stick isn't really a
>>>> viable solution?
>>>
>>> Freesat. Then it turns out there's nowhere for a dish.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> Just out if interest Bill, in your experience what proportion of
>> properties
>> can’t get a working dish?
>>
> In my part of the world not many. The problems are when there's a tall
> building or trees in the way. There are quite large shadow areas in the
> cities of course. In Wensleydale and Swaledale though there are a lot of
> listed buildings and touchy landlords.
>
> Sky installers tend to throw in the towel at the slightest difficulty.
> This is good for independent installers. It's usually possible to find a
> solution and the customer is then massively grateful.
>

Confirm or not Bill.
Many people in the Dales will say they cannot have satellite because
they are in a National Park or whatever.
Surely this is a visibility question, e.g. if the dish was round the
back and not visible from the road, or even at the bottom of the garden
at ground level would that still be not allowed?

On 15/10/2021 20:33, Woody wrote:

> Many people in the Dales will say they cannot have satellite because
> they are in a National Park or whatever.
> Surely this is a visibility question, e.g. if the dish was round the
> back and not visible from the road, or even at the bottom of the garden
> at ground level would that still be not allowed?
>
>
My guess is that if a dish is installed at ground level and it couldn't
be seen from the road outside, the owner would get away with such an
arrangement provided it wasn't mentioned publicly.

Jim

"Andy Burns" wrote in message news:ist2laFpd93U1@mid.individual.net...

NY wrote:

> James Heaton wrote:
>> It is pretty standard planning speak.

Mum used to be a shorthand typist for a firm manufacturing gensets and
pumps, I
remember the quotes and invoices would be phrased similarly

5 no 3hp diesel engines @ GBP xxx
2 no 4kW alternators @ GBP yyy

>> Life can get a bit confusing when it's written as 3 2 bed houses and 2 3
>> bed houses
>>
>> So I would write that up as 3no 2b4p houses and 2no 3b5p houses.
>
> I'll probably kick myself when you tell me, but what is the "p" in "2b4p"
> and "3b5p". I could understand if it was "r" for "reception rooms"
> (lounge, dining room etc).

person?

Gold star!

Not wanting to get into the tech too much, but there are different space
standards for different housetypes.

So specifying a 3b5p means I want 2 double and 1 single bedrooms, and they
can read off the size requirement from the official table (93m2 in this case
assuming 2 storeys, about 101 from memory if a 3 storey to take account of
another staircase and landing)

For 4 bed housetype there are 4 different standards (although personally I
only use the middle 2 - the smallest is too small to be useful over a large
3b whilst increasing the build cost, and the largest is massive!)

James

Am 15.10.2021 um 10:31 schrieb Mark Carver:
> On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>     Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>
>> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
>>
>> According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
>> temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter - Eston
>> Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main transmitters that
>> carry COM7.
> Eston Nab also had COM 4/5/6 added, and the PSBs significantly increased
> in power  week or so after the fire, in an attempt to restore all of
> them to a wider area.
> It's basically been acting as a replace Bilsdale, rather than the small
> local relay that it was.

Are there any data available on the actual powers used at mini-Bilsdale,
Eston Nab and Arncliffe Wood? The latest 700-plan-clearance spreadsheet
of August still shows the previous situation.

PSB 1/2/3 are now operating at the same channels from mini-Bilsdale and
Eston Nab. I wonder if this causes any synchronisation problems -
assuming that they still use the standard guard interval of 1/32.

Regards,
Uli

On 16/10/2021 21:08, Ulrich Onken wrote:
> Am 15.10.2021 um 10:31 schrieb Mark Carver:
>> On 15/10/2021 09:25, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> In article <isr4o7Fe5kuU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>     Ulrich Onken <usenet-0621.uonken@spamgourmet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/bilsdale :
>>>
>>> According to that, not only did they restore COM7 to Bilsdale
>>> temporary mast but they've added it to another transmitter - Eston
>>> Nab. That transmitter isn't on my list of 25 main transmitters that
>>> carry COM7.
>> Eston Nab also had COM 4/5/6 added, and the PSBs significantly
>> increased in power  week or so after the fire, in an attempt to
>> restore all of them to a wider area.
>> It's basically been acting as a replace Bilsdale, rather than the
>> small local relay that it was.
>
> Are there any data available on the actual powers used at
> mini-Bilsdale, Eston Nab and Arncliffe Wood? The latest
> 700-plan-clearance spreadsheet of August still shows the previous
> situation.

Mini Bilsdale is now quoted at 50kW PSB, and 25 kW COMs (3 dB down on
original Bilsdale)   Eston Nab unknown, Arncliffe 325 watts
>
> PSB 1/2/3 are now operating at the same channels from mini-Bilsdale
> and Eston Nab.

No, they're not. The Freeview info was unhelpfully out of date.

Seems updated now
https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/channel-information-bilsdale-temporary-mast-eston-nab-arncliffe-wood

Am 17.10.2021 um 18:12 schrieb Mark Carver:
> On 16/10/2021 21:08, Ulrich Onken wrote:

>> Are there any data available on the actual powers used at
>> mini-Bilsdale, Eston Nab and Arncliffe Wood? The latest
>> 700-plan-clearance spreadsheet of August still shows the previous
>> situation.
>
> Mini Bilsdale is now quoted at 50kW PSB, and 25 kW COMs (3 dB down on
> original Bilsdale)   Eston Nab unknown, Arncliffe 325 watts
>>
>> PSB 1/2/3 are now operating at the same channels from mini-Bilsdale
>> and Eston Nab.
>
> No, they're not. The Freeview info was unhelpfully out of date.
>
> Seems updated now
> https://www.freeview.co.uk/help/channel-information-bilsdale-temporary-mast-eston-nab-arncliffe-wood
>

Thanks for the update, Mark. I corrected the tables at fmlist.org
accordingly.

Regards,
Uli

Am 19.10.2021 um 09:57 schrieb Woody:
> On Mon 18/10/2021 23:35, Ulrich Onken wrote:
>> Thanks for the update, Mark. I corrected the tables at fmlist.org
>> accordingly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Uli
>
> Didn't know of your site. What is your abbreviation within the listings
> for the UK?
>

The ITU abbreviation for the UK is "G". You can also search the database
at https://fmscan.org using filter criteria or generate coverage maps
around a defined location.

It's a club website (ukwtv.de), and a number of volunteers around the
world are maintaining the data (FM, DAB, TV). I happen to be responsible
for the UK data (following a long assignment in the North of England
several years ago, with Belmont, Emley Moor and Bilsdale within a 2-hour
drive...).

Regards,
Uli

On 12/10/2021 11:10, NY wrote:
> https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19641117.bilsdale-transmitter-tv-signal-restored-wednesday-say-freeview/
>
>
> Not yet announced on
> https://www.arqiva.com/news-views/news/update-on-incident-at-bilsdale-mast,
> so not confirmed yet.

Pictures of the Version 1 temp mast, and debris from old mast now on mb21

http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/gallerypage.php?txid=744&pageid=4129

On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:56 +0000, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Pictures of the Version 1 temp mast, and debris from old mast now on mb21

I hate people who don't cut the ends of cable ties off.

On Fri 12/11/2021 13:53, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:56 +0000, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Pictures of the Version 1 temp mast, and debris from old mast now on mb21
>
> I hate people who don't cut the ends of cable ties off.
>

There's one major difference - there are lots of holes in DAB -
specifically D1 - that were not there in the past - and I'm talking
about the Harrogate/Ripon area. Classic and Smooth drop out all over the
place that they didn't before.

Having said that, irrespective of height, mini-B is only radiating 375W
instead of 4740W before, about 11dB less, so I suppose that may have
some effect! Also given the aerials are in one vertical line there's no
knowing what directional effects it may be having?

On 12/11/2021 14:38, Woody wrote:

> Having said that, irrespective of height, mini-B is only radiating
> 375W instead of 4740W before, about 11dB less, so I suppose that may
> have some effect! Also given the aerials are in one vertical line
> there's no knowing what directional effects it may be having?

Ofcom data says it's 2kW per mux, but cardioid to the north. Due south
it's 8.5dB down on that, east and west about 3dB down

Are you confusing it with FM from Eston Nab, which is indeed only 375w
per service ?

On 12/11/2021 13:53, Paul Ratcliffe wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2021 08:33:56 +0000, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Pictures of the Version 1 temp mast, and debris from old mast now on mb21
> I hate people who don't cut the ends of cable ties off.
There's no pride in work any more. That said I have wiremen that will
trim off a cable tie end for something that's only going to be
temporarily lashed into position for just an hour or two.