The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.

<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike-in-modern-uk-history>

On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>
> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>

Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
first place?

In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:

>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.

>>
>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>
>Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>first place?

A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?

Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
(electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
have been scaled back of late.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>
>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>
>>>
>>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>
>>Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>first place?
>
>A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?

I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is it? The existing signals are still in use. But
much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.

Also, with longer possessions, the work can be done more efficiently.

>
>Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
>(electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
>have been scaled back of late.

I think the last point is key: with the likely reduction in railway investment, there will be less need for NR staff.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:23:59 +0100
Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>
><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike
>-in-modern-uk-history>

Will anyone notice?

Poor old RMT , still living in the past.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:49:02 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
>>(electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
>>have been scaled back of late.
>
>I think the last point is key: with the likely reduction in railway
>investment, there will be less need for NR staff.

Reduction? You're obviously not including HS2 then.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:49:02 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
>>> (electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
>>> have been scaled back of late.
>>
>> I think the last point is key: with the likely reduction in railway
>> investment, there will be less need for NR staff.
>
> Reduction? You're obviously not including HS2 then.
>
>

NR staff aren't building HS2.

In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>
>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>
>>>>
>>>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>
>>>Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>first place?
>>
>>A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>
>I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.

I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.

>Also, with longer possessions, the work can be done more efficiently.

But in any case, once done, there should be less ongoing maintenance
required than for the old system.

>>Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
>>(electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
>>have been scaled back of late.
>
>I think the last point is key: with the likely reduction in railway
>investment, there will be less need for NR staff.

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:45:49 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:49:02 +0100
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>> Is it even all "maintenance": maybe some new builds
>>>> (electrification, reopening stations and new lines)
>>>> have been scaled back of late.
>>>
>>> I think the last point is key: with the likely reduction in railway
>>> investment, there will be less need for NR staff.
>>
>> Reduction? You're obviously not including HS2 then.
>>
>>
>
>NR staff aren't building HS2.

Will they be maintaining it or will that be oursourced?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>
>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>
>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>> first place?
>>>
>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>
>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>
> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.

Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.

>
>> Also, with longer possessions, the work can be done more efficiently.
>
> But in any case, once done, there should be less ongoing maintenance
> required than for the old system.

Let's hope so.

In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>plans to
>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>> first place?
>>>>
>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>
>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>
>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>
>Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.

Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
for:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
g_transfers>

>>> Also, with longer possessions, the work can be done more efficiently.
>>
>> But in any case, once done, there should be less ongoing maintenance
>> required than for the old system.
>
>Let's hope so.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>> plans to
>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>
>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>
>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>
>> Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>> just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>> southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>
> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
> for:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
> g_transfers>

I merely pointed out that there's at least seven more years of work to do,
just to fully switch over to ETCS just as far as Grantham, let alone
"completed re-signalling such as ECML".

In message <t3pre9$qeo$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:46:01 on Wed, 20 Apr
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>>> plans to
>>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>>
>>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>>
>>> Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>>> just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>>> southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>>
>> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>> for:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>> g_transfers>
>
>I merely pointed out that there's at least seven more years of work to do,
>just to fully switch over to ETCS just as far as Grantham, let alone
>"completed re-signalling such as ECML".

Oh, I see, you've been over-reading the phrase "recently completed
re-signalling". They have completed many ECML re-signalling projects,
the one I had in mind being the Kings Cross area (a cause of innumerable
possessions the last few years). Although the list above has many places
where signalboxes have been decommissioned.

Now that project (and others like it) are complete, hopefully the
requirement for ongoing maintenance (of trackwork like the Kings Cross
throat, as well as signalling) will be reduced, so they would need fewer
staff.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:56:47 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
wrote:

>On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>
>
>
>Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>first place?

Or perhaps the figure is an entirely arbitrary number of jobs to go
plucked from the air by civil servants?

TBH I'm surprised NR has that many engineering staff. Whenever an
accident report is published the list of organisations involved -
contractors, subcontractors, agencies and so on - looks more like the
citation list of a major academic publication.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:41:46 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>>plans to
>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>
>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>
>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>
>>Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>>just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>>southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>
>Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>for:
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>g_transfers>
>

All that says about ECTS is Fletton to KX by 2024.

>>>> Also, with longer possessions, the work can be done more efficiently.
>>>
>>> But in any case, once done, there should be less ongoing maintenance
>>> required than for the old system.
>>
>>Let's hope so.

In message <ar426h1j2jgg8ovoie14loci44f1bon6qk@4ax.com>, at 09:19:40 on
Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:41:46 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>>>plans to
>>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>>
>>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>>
>>>Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>>>just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>>>southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>>
>>Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>>for:
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>>g_transfers>
>>
>
>All that says about ECTS is Fletton to KX by 2024.

They aren't going from semaphore to ECTS in one bound. Each stage in
between should be more reliable than the last, which is what matters in
the context of the number of engineers required to do maintenance.
--
Roland Perry

In message <rf426h9etprgjfagtc99bnho614b9ifoev@4ax.com>, at 09:15:55 on
Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:56:47 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>
>>>
>>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-ra
>>>il-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>
>>Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>first place?
>
>Or perhaps the figure is an entirely arbitrary number of jobs to go
>plucked from the air by civil servants?
>
>TBH I'm surprised NR has that many engineering staff.

How many? 2500+, or something else. The Guardian article doesn't mention
either a number or a percentage.

Although I've found this on a recruitment site: "Network Rail has a
workforce of over 30,000 employees across the country engaged in track
maintenance and replacement."

>Whenever an accident report is published the list of organisations
>involved - contractors, subcontractors, agencies and so on - looks more
>like the citation list of a major academic publication.

Network Rail continues to outsource a lot of its design and
implementation, it was only the routine maintenance they claimed
to be bringing entirely in-house.

For the avoidance of doubt, piecemeal track replacement is counted as
maintenance.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 05:43:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <t3pre9$qeo$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:46:01 on Wed, 20 Apr
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>>>> plans to
>>>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>>>
>>>> Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to Stoke Tunnel,
>>>> just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>>>> southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>>>
>>> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>>> for:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>>> g_transfers>
>>
>>I merely pointed out that there's at least seven more years of work to do,
>>just to fully switch over to ETCS just as far as Grantham, let alone
>>"completed re-signalling such as ECML".
>
>Oh, I see, you've been over-reading the phrase "recently completed
>re-signalling".

Ah, some more of your invisible words! What you should have said, if you understood the actual scope of the project
was: "recently NOT-NEARLY completed re-signalling such as ECML"

> They have completed many ECML re-signalling projects,
>the one I had in mind being the Kings Cross area (a cause of innumerable
>possessions the last few years). Although the list above has many places
>where signalboxes have been decommissioned.

The Kings Cross resignalling is not complete yet.

>
>Now that project (and others like it) are complete, hopefully the
>requirement for ongoing maintenance (of trackwork like the Kings Cross
>throat, as well as signalling) will be reduced, so they would need fewer
>staff.

Strictly speaking, the Kings Cross remodelling was nothing to do with the resignalling project, but it made obvious
sense to do it first.

On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:32:45 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:23:59 +0100
>Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>
>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike
>>-in-modern-uk-history>
>
>Will anyone notice?

I think people might notice if the railways have an extended strike.

>
>Poor old RMT , still living in the past.

On 21/04/2022 09:15, Ken wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:56:47 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>> first place?
>
> Or perhaps the figure is an entirely arbitrary number of jobs to go
> plucked from the air by civil servants?
>
> TBH I'm surprised NR has that many engineering staff. Whenever an
> accident report is published the list of organisations involved -
> contractors, subcontractors, agencies and so on - looks more like the
> citation list of a major academic publication.

The Guardian's account, which may not be neutral, implies that NR
have decided (or been told) to cut back by 2500 salaries, rather than
having no work for those people to do.

On 21/04/2022 13:18, Certes wrote:
> On 21/04/2022 09:15, Ken wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:56:47 +0100, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>> plans to
>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>> first place?
>>
>> Or perhaps the figure is an entirely arbitrary number of jobs to go
>> plucked from the air by civil servants?
>>
>> TBH I'm surprised NR has that many engineering staff. Whenever an
>> accident report is published the list of organisations involved -
>> contractors, subcontractors, agencies and so on - looks more like the
>> citation list of a major academic publication.
>
> The Guardian's account, which may not be neutral, implies that NR
> have decided (or been told) to cut back by 2500 salaries, rather than
> having no work for those people to do.

Anyone remember what happened on the ECML in the 1990s when track
maintenance staff levels were over-reduced ??

Or does some buffoon in the treasury think that it is acceptable to
increase the risk to passengers in order to cut spending ??

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ar426h1j2jgg8ovoie14loci44f1bon6qk@4ax.com>, at 09:19:40 on
> Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:41:46 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>>> for:
>>>
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>>> g_transfers>
>>>
>>
>> All that says about ECTS is Fletton to KX by 2024.
>
> They aren't going from semaphore to ECTS in one bound.

Machynlleth did, in 2011. Depending on the speed of ETCS roll-out vs other
resignalling, I suspect it's not unlikely that other areas may do so too.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <vfi26htdoiqq2ogru9velsit4hv6vs72iv@4ax.com>, at 13:15:43 on
Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 05:43:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <t3pre9$qeo$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:46:01 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t3pbl5$kap$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:16:37 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <bc306htbrdo5e1saafln50i4imvcusc40o@4ax.com>, at 14:49:02 on
>>>>>> Wed, 20 Apr 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 14:35:15 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>><roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <t3ovuf$bmn$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:56:47 on Wed, 20 Apr
>>>>>>>> 2022, GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 20/04/2022 13:23, Certes wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s
>>>>>>>>>> plans to
>>>>>>>>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rai
>>>>>>>>>> l-strike-in-modern-uk-history>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there any explanation why they have 2500 too many workers in the
>>>>>>>>> first place?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A combination of historic inefficiencies, and perhaps even modern
>>>>>>>> trackwork needing less maintenance than previously. Eliminating
>>>>>>>> level crossings (annoying as it that is to road users) must also
>>>>>>>> mean less maintenance required, and what of recently completed
>>>>>>>> re-signalling such as ECML, surely that has fewer signalboxes to
>>>>>>>> maintain, and why would it be breaking down quite so soon?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think the ECML resignalling is anywhere near complete yet, is
>>>>>>> it? The existing signals are still in use. But
>>>>>>> much of the work is done by contractors, not NR staff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought they'd at least started using it as far as York.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even close. ETCS will be deployed from King’s Cross to
>>>>>Stoke Tunnel,
>>>>> just short of Grantham. The hope is to introduce ETCS from Stoke Tunnel
>>>>> southwards by the end of Control Period 7 in 2029.
>>>>
>>>> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>>>> for:
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>>>> g_transfers>
>>>
>>>I merely pointed out that there's at least seven more years of work to do,
>>>just to fully switch over to ETCS just as far as Grantham, let alone
>>>"completed re-signalling such as ECML".
>>
>>Oh, I see, you've been over-reading the phrase "recently completed
>>re-signalling".
>
>Ah, some more of your invisible words! What you should have said, if
>you understood the actual scope of the project
>was: "recently NOT-NEARLY completed re-signalling such as ECML"

You've got yourself even more tangled up than before. If there's
invisible words in my posting they'd be "{re-signalling} projects {such
as} those in various places up and down the {ECML} including, but not
exclusively, at Kings Cross"

>> They have completed many ECML re-signalling projects,
>>the one I had in mind being the Kings Cross area (a cause of innumerable
>>possessions the last few years). Although the list above has many places
>>where signalboxes have been decommissioned.
>
>The Kings Cross resignalling is not complete yet.

Has not some (most) of the operational work been transferred away from
the Kings Cross signalbox? Is the result not a reduction in the number
of maintenance staff required.

Why obsess about Kings Cross being the only location up and down the
ECML which might reduce the requirement for maintenance staff? I did
cite a long list earlier.

>>Now that project (and others like it) are complete, hopefully the
>>requirement for ongoing maintenance (of trackwork like the Kings Cross
>>throat, as well as signalling) will be reduced, so they would need fewer
>>staff.
>
>Strictly speaking, the Kings Cross remodelling was nothing to do with
>the resignalling project,

Nobody said it did. They are *both* things which separately reduce the
requirement for maintenance staff.

>but it made obvious sense to do it first.

The Network Rail announcements claimed that work on the two overlapped.
It wasn't one, then the other.
--
Roland Perry

On 21/04/2022 13:16, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 15:32:45 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 13:23:59 +0100
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> The Guardian reports a potential RMT ballot over Network Rail’s plans to
>>> cut 2,500 maintenance jobs.
>>>
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/apr/20/threat-of-biggest-rail-strike
>>> -in-modern-uk-history>
>>
>> Will anyone notice?
>
> I think people might notice if the railways have an extended strike.
>
>>
>> Poor old RMT , still living in the past.

I don't think that NR are explaining this properly. At the moment, RMT
are casting themselves as guardians of network safety (which is clearly
not their role).

In message <t3rka4$sfa$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:56:37 on Thu, 21 Apr
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ar426h1j2jgg8ovoie14loci44f1bon6qk@4ax.com>, at 09:19:40 on
>> Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 17:41:46 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sounds like rather more has already been done than you give them credit
>>>> for:
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Rail_Operating_Centre#Key_signallin
>>>> g_transfers>
>>>
>>> All that says about ECTS is Fletton to KX by 2024.
>>
>> They aren't going from semaphore to ECTS in one bound.
>
>Machynlleth did, in 2011. Depending on the speed of ETCS roll-out vs other
>resignalling, I suspect it's not unlikely that other areas may do so too.

When I last looked, Machynlleth wasn't on the ECML.
--
Roland Perry