In article <bD3WHj5nyqlhFw00@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John)
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> No, no, you can't do that: text _must_ be designed for one width only,
> and usually a ridiculously big one, so that anyone other than the
> designers with their huge monitors has to scroll left and right to read
> them.

> Seriously, I never understood this: HTML itself reflows text
> intrinsically, so the move to fixed-width - or fixed-format - must
> initially have required _extra_ programming. (Now, it's probably the
> default in web-generating software; I doubt many write HTML code, or
> even know how to.)

I started off with HTML 1.x and hand coded using a 'plain text' editor.
Since then I've moved on a bit and use !TechWriter (a RISC OS Technical
document processor) to initially create the text. It can export plain HTML
as well as rtf, word, pdf, postscript, etc. So serves as a common starting
point for multiple output routes.

I then tweak the HTML by hand, but using a quasi-plain-text editor
(!HTMLEdit) that shows me the code so I can either edit entirely by hand,
or use a set of shortcuts that edit markup.

This makes it easy to get simple code and avoid 'bloat', etc.

It's a shame more people don't know about !TechWriter, though. I was sent a
copy to review in 1992 because I routinely have to write documents with
maths. Fell in love with it as the easiest and best way to get results that
easily follow the standard rules for layout of equations, etc. This is an
aside, though. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <MzAT7C54tqlhFwUw@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John)
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> A big difference is between frame rate and flicker rate, though it's
> less so with static material such as text. It used to be thought that
> refresh rate had to be at least not much less than 50, as otherwise the
> flicker was indeed noticeable (and in many cases headache-inducing):
> that's why (both) TV systems used interlace (OK, there were bandwidth
> reasons too; it was quite a clever invention), and most film projectors
> had a shutter that interrupted the light _twice_ a frame.

With the old CRT monitors I tended not to see visible flicker, but the
image somehow got more 'solid' or 'real' when the frame rate was above 60Hz
even when nothing on-screen was being moved or changed.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:25:29 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <sn3vqu$9hs$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml
>> >
>> > Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.
>
>Thanks. Interesting. :-)
>
>That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
>to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
>link to my own
>
>http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
>
>which uses a simpler layout and colours that I find much easier. And may
>also interest some here given the xposting. Apologies to anyone who
>objects to xposting so many groups. Not something I'd usually do.
>
>Slainte,
>
>Jim
As I run a website for my rambling group, I was interested what
triggered your criticism above so clicked on the first link.
It seems rather cramped with small print. Who the hell is McFarlane
and why should I be interested in his history? The second photo on the
top row took some time to be drawn - I saved it to investigate and
found the photo is 6.5MB - ridiculous for a website. I navigated to
the home .co.uk page to find that McFarlane is Java Jive, but I could
not find a link to the McFarlane history on the home page.
On the other hand Jim LeSurf's link seems much better to me, but
there's nothing on that page that says who it's about. I navigated to
the home page to see that it's about Jim, but again, there is no link
to the history page on the home page.
My own website is http://midsurreyramblers.co.uk
Neither of you may like it but you can't please all of the people all
of the time, although that's a good thing to aim for at all times.
--
Dave W

On 19/11/2021 19:29, Dave W wrote:
>
> On Thu, 18 Nov 2021 10:25:29 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
> <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> In article <sn3vqu$9hs$1@dont-email.me>, NY <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again to all who have contributed their advice.
>>
>> Thanks. Interesting. :-)
>>
>> That said, I'm afraid I find your choice of BG/FG/Text colours quite hard
>> to read. Since you posted about your 'history' I'll be cheeky and post a
>> link to my own
>>
>> http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
>>
>> which uses a simpler layout and colours that I find much easier. And may
>> also interest some here given the xposting. Apologies to anyone who
>> objects to xposting so many groups. Not something I'd usually do.
>
> As I run a website for my rambling group, I was interested what
> triggered your criticism above so clicked on the first link.
>
> It seems rather cramped with small print. Who the hell is McFarlane
> and why should I be interested in his history?

Actually we're part of a sept of a Scottish clan, so rather more than
just one person, and of course the further back you go, the more
descendants there are who might be interested; our earliest document
goes back to the reign of Queen Anne, though that is rather a loner,
they don't really gather numbers until the 1750s.

> The second photo on the
> top row took some time to be drawn - I saved it to investigate and
> found the photo is 6.5MB - ridiculous for a website.

That at least is fair criticism, but ICBA to make special copies of the
photos in the archive just for the download page, and that photo of The
Prince of Wales, later Edward VIII who abdicated, with Brig Gen
Macfarlane happens to be that size in the archive. The photos and
documents were scanned as portable network graphics (PNG) which is a
lossless compression format, so as not to lose detail in the originals,
hence they tend to be bigger than the near universal JP(E)Gs.

> I navigated to
> the home .co.uk page to find that McFarlane is Java Jive, but I could
> not find a link to the McFarlane history on the home page.

Because it was only just released the day before yesterday, and I
haven't had time yet to integrate it into the rest of my site, which
I've neglected for a long time anyway while doing the scanning,
photo-retouching, research, etc to compile the archive. However, I've
now restarted work on the website, and yesterday fixed one amongst a
number of broken webpages, broken, I might add, not by me, but by others
like Google and the Ordnance Survey withdrawing and discontinuing
functionality which the now broken pages were using.

> On the other hand Jim LeSurf's link seems much better to me, but
> there's nothing on that page that says who it's about. I navigated to
> the home page to see that it's about Jim, but again, there is no link
> to the history page on the home page.
>
> My own website is http://midsurreyramblers.co.uk
> Neither of you may like it but you can't please all of the people all
> of the time, although that's a good thing to aim for at all times.

A rather large but unexciting picture of nondescript people walking away
from the camera - surely you must have a better one with a decent
background sweeping view and with people facing the camera in a rather
more positive fashion - with a comparatively small link to the rest of
the site, which when you follow it has an irritating and seemingly
pointless floater in text too small to read even with glasses without
putting my head much nearer the screen. Can't say it's much of an
improvement over Jim's or mine. Sorry, but you did link to it.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Fri, 19 Nov 2021 09:13:20 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf
<noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:

>In article <MzAT7C54tqlhFwUw@255soft.uk>, J. P. Gilliver (John)
><G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> A big difference is between frame rate and flicker rate, though it's
>> less so with static material such as text. It used to be thought that
>> refresh rate had to be at least not much less than 50, as otherwise the
>> flicker was indeed noticeable (and in many cases headache-inducing):
>> that's why (both) TV systems used interlace (OK, there were bandwidth
>> reasons too; it was quite a clever invention), and most film projectors
>> had a shutter that interrupted the light _twice_ a frame.
>
>With the old CRT monitors I tended not to see visible flicker, but the
>image somehow got more 'solid' or 'real' when the frame rate was above 60Hz
>even when nothing on-screen was being moved or changed.
>
>Jim

CRTs and laptop screens might look similar to the eye but they look
very different via TV cameras. Many years ago when it was occasionally
my task to enable the inclusion of CRT displays on camera, I had to
change the scanning rate of the displays so that they looked awful to
the eye, and advise directors to avoid rapid panning shots.

Another option with digital cameras was to use the electronic shutter
that most of them were equipped with. This could shorten the exposure
time to make it match the existing scan period of the CRT display, but
it was still necessary to avoid panning the camera too rapidly or the
images on the CRT screens would appear to split and judder.

Rod.

In article <sn97ip$650$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:
> That at least is fair criticism, but ICBA to make special copies of the
> photos in the archive just for the download page, and that photo of The
> Prince of Wales, later Edward VIII who abdicated, with Brig Gen
> Macfarlane happens to be that size in the archive. The photos and
> documents were scanned as portable network graphics (PNG) which is a
> lossless compression format, so as not to lose detail in the originals,
> hence they tend to be bigger than the near universal JP(E)Gs.

image magik could have batch processed the lot with one command.

FWIW I always use jpeg for photos, but tend to use png (previously used
gifs) for 'diagrams' or graphs. Saves the reader time. And I've always been
aware that people may be paying per byte for info or have a slow
connection, particularly in poorer countries than the UK.

With document scans I've tended to find that it depends on the case which
works best - png or jpeg - so experiment to decide.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <gdtfpgtkf9stfbh0j1sf0lftimc1lvp3n3@4ax.com>, Dave W
<davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> It seems rather cramped with small print. Who the hell is McFarlane
> and why should I be interested in his history? The second photo on the
> top row took some time to be drawn - I saved it to investigate and
> found the photo is 6.5MB - ridiculous for a website. I navigated to
> the home .co.uk page to find that McFarlane is Java Jive, but I could
> not find a link to the McFarlane history on the home page.

I noticed that the images were slow to load, and suspected that. I tend to
keep down image sizes if only to fit displays that will crop > about 1k
pixels wide. That said I've no personal experience of modern 'mobile
phones' so don't know their limitations/quirks. So my pages may not render
well on them.

> On the other hand Jim LeSurf's link seems much better to me, but
> there's nothing on that page that says who it's about. I navigated to
> the home page to see that it's about Jim, but again, there is no link
> to the history page on the home page.

URLs for the pages you mean? I have a number of sites with different 'home'
pages. Note also an 'up arrow' at the bottom of many pages which links to
up the page 'tree'.

The biog site as a whole is meant to give some idea 'who I am' but mainly
about events, etc, which others might find interesting. Not a geneology or
a list of my likes/dislikes etc. No 'likes' or 'follows' or whatever.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <gdtfpgtkf9stfbh0j1sf0lftimc1lvp3n3@4ax.com>, Dave W
<davewi11@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> My own website is http://midsurreyramblers.co.uk Neither of you may like
> it but you can't please all of the people all of the time, although
> that's a good thing to aim for at all times.

FWIW I find the text overlaid the image very hard to read. Took some time
to notice a 'hidden' link was then embedded in part of it. However I only
looked with a light browser with scripting off as that tends to give a
base-rendering view and dodges a lot of cruft, snooping, etc from some
of the more commercial sites.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Java Jive" wrote:
> On 19/11/2021 19:29, Dave W wrote:
[...]
>>>>> http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml

>> The second photo on the
>> top row took some time to be drawn - I saved it to investigate and
>> found the photo is 6.5MB - ridiculous for a website.
>
> That at least is fair criticism, but ICBA to make special copies of the
> photos in the archive just for the download page,

With the other photos generally being between 0.5 & 1MB, the whole
page weighs in at 18MB. That's excessive and I noticed the slow page
loading.

> The photos and documents were scanned as portable network graphics
> (PNG) which is a lossless compression format, so as not to lose detail
> in the originals, hence they tend to be bigger than the near universal
> JP(E)Gs.

That's great for your archive but not so much for people like me who
might be more interested in reading the text. If I were to download
your smaller archive it would take about 1.5 hours on this slow ADSL
connection. What would be good is to have smaller sets available and
with thumbnail/smaller/lossy images with ability to download the full
size images individually if required. However, I appreciate the CBA
factor in this.

BTW, that page "absolutely must support Javascript" is not the case.

On 20/11/2021 13:25, Apd wrote:
> "Java Jive" wrote:
>> On 19/11/2021 19:29, Dave W wrote:
>> [...]
>>>>>> http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/FamilyHistory/FamilyHistory.shtml
>>>
>>> The second photo on the
>>> top row took some time to be drawn - I saved it to investigate and
>>> found the photo is 6.5MB - ridiculous for a website.
>>
>> That at least is fair criticism, but ICBA to make special copies of the
>> photos in the archive just for the download page,
>
> With the other photos generally being between 0.5 & 1MB, the whole
> page weighs in at 18MB. That's excessive and I noticed the slow page
> loading.

I've taken the half dozen or so worst offenders in the two pages
concerned, those that were over 2MB, and turned them into *.jpg, but
that was the only one on that page.

>> The photos and documents were scanned as portable network graphics
>> (PNG) which is a lossless compression format, so as not to lose detail
>> in the originals, hence they tend to be bigger than the near universal
>> JP(E)Gs.
>
> That's great for your archive but not so much for people like me who
> might be more interested in reading the text. If I were to download
> your smaller archive it would take about 1.5 hours on this slow ADSL
> connection. What would be good is to have smaller sets available and
> with thumbnail/smaller/lossy images with ability to download the full
> size images individually if required. However, I appreciate the CBA
> factor in this.

The danger is that if I use lossy rather than lossless compression, the
text won't be readable. Only a minority of the papers that could be
readily OCR-ed, typed and printed material, was converted into text
files alongside the scanned image, by far the majority of it is either
cursive text, handwriting, or photos/sketches. I'd like very much to
convert the handwriting into text, but no cheap and freely available
program is able to do it.

> BTW, that page "absolutely must support Javascript" is not the case.

Yes, thanks for pointing that out, I copied the page from another to act
as a template, and forget to remove that section. I've fixed that now.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

In article <snb8k1$8ef$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

> The danger is that if I use lossy rather than lossless compression, the
> text won't be readable. Only a minority of the papers that could be
> readily OCR-ed, typed and printed material, was converted into text
> files alongside the scanned image, by far the majority of it is either
> cursive text, handwriting, or photos/sketches. I'd like very much to
> convert the handwriting into text, but no cheap and freely available
> program is able to do it.

As well as thumbnails that act as links when someone wants a detailed view,
you can also try various other means to reduce image file sizes. e.g. fewer
bits-per-pixel, after maybe tweaking the gamma, etc, to get a clearer
result. Careful use of sharpening filters, etc, can also help.

I've had to do a fair bit of this kind of thing for the UKHHSoc website
http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/AudioDocs.html
that offers over 5,000 documents - mostly scans of old documentation, etc.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 20/11/2021 16:43, Java Jive wrote:
> The danger is that if I use lossy rather than lossless compression, the
> text won't be readable. Only a minority of the papers that could be
> readily OCR-ed, typed and printed material, was converted into text
> files alongside the scanned image, by far the majority of it is either
> cursive text, handwriting, or photos/sketches.

There is a historical website I refer to occasionally where they face
the same problem. Their solution is to provide a lossy picture good
enough to show what the original looks like, which allows pages to load
quite quickly, and anybody who then wants to actually read the finer
detail (handwriting on a census page, for instance) just clicks on the
lossy image and a full, detailed image opens in a new tab.

I have just checked one at random, and a 250K lossy picture expands to a
140 megabyte detailed image.

You might find a technique like that solves your readability problem
without a huge overhead on initial display.

If you want to shrink your large pictures into smaller lossy ones and
still keep the originals for anyone who wants to see them, I have found
the batch process facility in Irfanview (Freeware available from
www.irfanview.com) is useful, and it runs on any flavour of Windows from
XP to Win10.

Jim

"Java Jive" wrote:
> On 20/11/2021 13:25, Apd wrote:
>> With the other photos generally being between 0.5 & 1MB, the whole
>> page weighs in at 18MB. That's excessive and I noticed the slow page
>> loading.
>
> I've taken the half dozen or so worst offenders in the two pages
> concerned, those that were over 2MB, and turned them into *.jpg, but
> that was the only one on that page.

And it's down to 13MB and the "unknowns" page is at 20MB - still OTT.

>> That's great for your archive but not so much for people like me who
>> might be more interested in reading the text. If I were to download
>> your smaller archive it would take about 1.5 hours on this slow ADSL
>> connection. What would be good is to have smaller sets available and
>> with thumbnail/smaller/lossy images with ability to download the full
>> size images individually if required. However, I appreciate the CBA
>> factor in this.
>
> The danger is that if I use lossy rather than lossless compression, the
> text won't be readable. Only a minority of the papers that could be
> readily OCR-ed, typed and printed material, was converted into text
> files alongside the scanned image, by far the majority of it is either
> cursive text, handwriting, or photos/sketches. I'd like very much to
> convert the handwriting into text, but no cheap and freely available
> program is able to do it.

With writing or print, a reduction to 256 colours or sometimes a
greyscale will help reduce the size but I see you already have the B/W
photos at 8 bits per pixel so maybe that's done. Perhaps the
dimensions of writing or text images could be reduced while still
being readable.

I still think it would be good to split up the zipped archives into
sections, say by generation, century, family branch, a combination or
whatever makes the best sense.

In article <snc011$ju4$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

> If you want to shrink your large pictures into smaller lossy ones and
> still keep the originals for anyone who wants to see them, I have found
> the batch process facility in Irfanview (Freeware available from
> www.irfanview.com) is useful, and it runs on any flavour of Windows from
> XP to Win10.

IIRC image magik runs on Linux/Macs/Doze and is also free. Works nicely.

https://imagemagick.org/index.php

I think it is easily available from most distros. I've used it to
automate generating things like sets of 'thumbnails' of related
images by a single command.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 21/11/2021 10:10, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article<snc011$ju4$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you want to shrink your large pictures into smaller lossy ones and
>> still keep the originals for anyone who wants to see them, I have found
>> the batch process facility in Irfanview (Freeware available from
>> www.irfanview.com) is useful, and it runs on any flavour of Windows from
>> XP to Win10.
>
> IIRC image magik runs on Linux/Macs/Doze and is also free. Works nicely.
>
> https://imagemagick.org/index.php
>
> I think it is easily available from most distros. I've used it to
> automate generating things like sets of 'thumbnails' of related
> images by a single command.
>
> Jim
>
I knew that you had mentioned image magik before, but I hadn't bothered
to look at which OSs it was available for.

I looked at JJ's headers and saw "Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:68.0"
so I offered the most popular free Windoze software. It is one I use
myself so I know it is reasonably intuitive for a new user.

Jim

In article <sndf35$evf$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> I knew that you had mentioned image magik before, but I hadn't bothered
> to look at which OSs it was available for.

> I looked at JJ's headers and saw "Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:68.0"
> so I offered the most popular free Windoze software. It is one I use
> myself so I know it is reasonably intuitive for a new user.

My memory is unreliable, but IIRC JJ is like myself and uses more than one
OS. Admittedly, for some time now I've only bothered with two - Linux and
RO. Stopped using other OS when ceased having to use them for the sake of
other people.

I started off with ICL 1900s and FORTRAN FWIW. Long time ago, now! 8-]

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 15:46 21 Nov 2021, Jim Lesurf said:
> In article <sndf35$evf$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I knew that you had mentioned image magik before, but I hadn't
>> bothered to look at which OSs it was available for.
>
>> I looked at JJ's headers and saw "Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64;
>> rv:68.0" so I offered the most popular free Windoze software. It is
>> one I use myself so I know it is reasonably intuitive for a new
>> user.
>
> My memory is unreliable, but IIRC JJ is like myself and uses more
> than one OS. Admittedly, for some time now I've only bothered with
> two - Linux and RO. Stopped using other OS when ceased having to use
> them for the sake of other people.
>
> I started off with ICL 1900s and FORTRAN FWIW. Long time ago, now!
> 8-]
>
> Jim

I started the same, using McCracken's Guide to Fortan with punched
cards on an ICL 1906. Took a week just to see if the syntax was right.

DEC PDP-11s belonged to another world.

On Sun 21/11/2021 19:12, Pamela wrote:
> On 15:46 21 Nov 2021, Jim Lesurf said:
>> In article <sndf35$evf$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
>> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I knew that you had mentioned image magik before, but I hadn't
>>> bothered to look at which OSs it was available for.
>>
>>> I looked at JJ's headers and saw "Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64;
>>> rv:68.0" so I offered the most popular free Windoze software. It is
>>> one I use myself so I know it is reasonably intuitive for a new
>>> user.
>>
>> My memory is unreliable, but IIRC JJ is like myself and uses more
>> than one OS. Admittedly, for some time now I've only bothered with
>> two - Linux and RO. Stopped using other OS when ceased having to use
>> them for the sake of other people.
>>
>> I started off with ICL 1900s and FORTRAN FWIW. Long time ago, now!
>> 8-]
>>
>> Jim
>
> I started the same, using McCracken's Guide to Fortan with punched
> cards on an ICL 1906. Took a week just to see if the syntax was right.
>
> DEC PDP-11s belonged to another world.
>

Yes, but they stood up to it.

We had a security organisation using mobile data in the early days.
Their aerial took a lightning strike. The charge went through the radio
links, the radio control system, and the teleprinter and took out
various parts, but the PDP11 just kept on ticking over.

Mind you another system also took a lightning strike and the only thing
that got hurt was the christmas tree memory in the PDP11.

You can't win 'em all I suppose!

On 19:41 21 Nov 2021, Woody said:

> On Sun 21/11/2021 19:12, Pamela wrote:
>> On 15:46 21 Nov 2021, Jim Lesurf said:
>>> In article <sndf35$evf$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
>>> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I knew that you had mentioned image magik before, but I hadn't
>>>> bothered to look at which OSs it was available for.
>>>
>>>> I looked at JJ's headers and saw "Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64;
>>>> rv:68.0" so I offered the most popular free Windoze software. It
>>>> is one I use myself so I know it is reasonably intuitive for a
>>>> new user.
>>>
>>> My memory is unreliable, but IIRC JJ is like myself and uses more
>>> than one OS. Admittedly, for some time now I've only bothered with
>>> two - Linux and RO. Stopped using other OS when ceased having to
>>> use them for the sake of other people.
>>>
>>> I started off with ICL 1900s and FORTRAN FWIW. Long time ago, now!
>>> 8-]
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>> I started the same, using McCracken's Guide to Fortan with punched
>> cards on an ICL 1906. Took a week just to see if the syntax was
>> right.
>>
>> DEC PDP-11s belonged to another world.
>>
>
> Yes, but they stood up to it.
>
> We had a security organisation using mobile data in the early days.
> Their aerial took a lightning strike. The charge went through the
> radio links, the radio control system, and the teleprinter and took
> out various parts, but the PDP11 just kept on ticking over.
>
> Mind you another system also took a lightning strike and the only
> thing that got hurt was the christmas tree memory in the PDP11.
>
> You can't win 'em all I suppose!

I never truly fathomed out DEC's machines. I went on to use a DEC
System 20 (comprising PDP-10s) but can't say I discovered much.

I went on to IBMs after that.

On 21/11/2021 15:46, Jim Lesurf wrote:

>
> I started off with ICL 1900s and FORTRAN FWIW. Long time ago, now! 8-]
>
> Jim
>
I started off with an IBM 1401 programmed in assembler. It was a weird
machine, because the programmer had control of the byte length of each
word, which made for very compact code once I knew by heart what was
left in the registers after executing each previous instruction. It
looked odd on program listings when it was possible to use just a string
of op codes with no from or to addresses! It was necessary though when
faced with shoe-horning a lot of processing into not a lot of memory.

It was eventually replaced by an ICL1904, and my daily update program
which I had managed to cram into 4K bytes on the IBM took 48K words on
the ICL when programmed on COBOL!

I didn't get on with Cobol which required a different type of mind-set
to Assembler, so I moved from programming to systems analysis for
mainframe stuff. I later went back to programming (in CORAL) on another
project that was minicomputer based. Operating system support for real
time systems was enjoyable.

Jim

In article <XnsADE9C356F2BAD37B93@144.76.35.252>, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

> I started the same, using McCracken's Guide to Fortan with punched
> cards on an ICL 1906. Took a week just to see if the syntax was right.

Have a feeling that I've lost my McCracken! I'd forgotten the name until I
read the above! However I still have a small stack of virgin punch-cards!

Used them for years as mm-wave attenuators. We discovered that the
thickness of 1 punc-card attenuated a 95GHz beam by about 0.1dB. So were
able to tweak beam power levels by inserting a given number in the beam
path. :-) (Used black dusbin liner to filter off near IR, etc.)

> DEC PDP-11s belonged to another world.

Days of having to hand-load the bootup instructions come to mind, using
rows of switches. I think I have a photo of the rack unit somewhere.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <snei9i$3t1$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

> I didn't get on with Cobol which required a different type of mind-set
> to Assembler, so I moved from programming to systems analysis for
> mainframe stuff. I later went back to programming (in CORAL) on another
> project that was minicomputer based. Operating system support for real
> time systems was enjoyable.

For me it was FORTRAN plus NAG routines and ones for the graph plotters.
Eventually for those Tektronix 'persistent phospher' terminals that let you
draw vector graphics onto the green screen. TTYs with cylinder heads,
before the 'golf ball' ones, and line printers.

I recall someone who plotted line spectra with a rountine that accidentally
set a min radius for the curves between points. Each peak of a line had a
bulbous head. Looked like a row of tulips! 8-] Oddly, the computing he was
most proud about was that he'd run a program for his girl-friend. She was
in the English Dept studying Beowulf. He'd done a stats analysis on the
poem that helped indentify some words being so scarce that it indicated
they'd been invented for the poem! The idea was that this was common at the
time Beowulf was created as a way of 'enhancing the drama'.

No idea if that idea stood up, be he was really happy with it.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

"Jim Lesurf" <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:598f52cc69noise@audiomisc.co.uk...
> In article <snei9i$3t1$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I didn't get on with Cobol which required a different type of mind-set
>> to Assembler, so I moved from programming to systems analysis for
>> mainframe stuff. I later went back to programming (in CORAL) on another
>> project that was minicomputer based. Operating system support for real
>> time systems was enjoyable.
>
> For me it was FORTRAN plus NAG routines and ones for the graph plotters.
> Eventually for those Tektronix 'persistent phospher' terminals that let
> you
> draw vector graphics onto the green screen. TTYs with cylinder heads,
> before the 'golf ball' ones, and line printers.

I'd forgotten about NAG routines. When I was at university in the early
1980s I had access to one of the mainframe computers (the OS was Multics)
which could plot to various A4 HP pen-plotters (they used felt pens) around
the campus, and to a very large plotter which used biro-type pens (that was
behind the scenes and plots would be delivered to student pigeon holes).

Using the NAG libraries I experimented with plotting various polar shapes
(cardioid, spiral etc) and a "string and pin" type pattern (draw a line from
10,0 to 0,1, then a line from 9,0 to 0,2, then 8,0 to 0,3 etc - repeat for
four quadrants about 0,0). After I'd plotted the string-and-pin pattern on
the big plotter, and had the roll of paper back in the pigeon hole, there
was a note attached asking me to contact the system administrator. Was I
about to be bollocked for frivolous use of university equipment? No, they
liked the diagram and asked if I could do them another copy that they could
put on the computer room wall ;-)

I also *tried* to use NAG to plot a 3D diagram of a local hill, by taking
readings from an OS map of the places where the contour lines crossed a 100
metre grid (enlarge that bit of the OS map, then draw the fine grid inside
the 1 km OS grid lines. That *should* have allowed the NAG routine to draw a
series of polygons from one point to the next at each contour level, and
then to interpolate a 3D projection. But the results were CRAP, so I must
have got things wrong.

My nephew works for a company that produces maps and projections of
buildings etc, and he said that the software they use would make it very
easy to produce a 3D projection from a series of sample points at different
contours, even fitting curves to the points rather than straight line
segments. But that's 40 years later - technology has moved on just a little
;-)

All of this came into the realms of "playing" with computer equipment out of
hours - eg between 9 PM and 8 AM when usage was "free" and not part of your
quota. I also played with their 24-pin matrix printer which could print
*proportional fonts* and could justify text to give a straight right margin.
Trivial and common-place nowadays, but fairly mind-blowing in the early 80s.

My first contact with computers was on a summer school for school children
in 1976 at ICL's Beaumont training centre at Old Windsor. That taught
programming in BASIC and an ICL-specific language called CESIL (computer
education in schools instructive language) and required a program to be
written on squared coding sheets (one character per box); these sheets were
punched onto cards which were then driven to another site, executed on a
mainframe and listing paper of the results was returned the following day.
Frustrating to have a 1-day turnaround when you are trying to learn a
language. One evening we were given access to a teletype which had *live
access* to the computer, so we could enter and run a program interactively,
as well as play the lunar-lander program that was popular at the time.
Having had my interest aroused by that course, my parents got me access to a
micro at a local teacher-training college on Wednesday afternoons when less
nerdy boys were playing rugby. The computer had no disc storage, or even
storage on audio cassette; the only IO apart from the teletype was paper
tape. The BASIC interpreter had to be loaded from paper tape using an
external reader that used light, but when that broke (I thing someone may
have dropped it!) the interpreter had to be loaded using the mechanical
reader on the teletype which took about 15 mins. I remember that computer
had rows of switches and lights, so it may have had the ability to enter
machine code from the front panel. Just before I left, they got a VT100 VDU
which was very flash compared with TTY output onto till-roll type paper.

Then my school got a TTY that was linked to the county mainframe by acoustic
coupler (a felt-lined wooden box with mike and speaker, into which you
placed a GPO telephone handset). The big leap forward was when they got a
Research Machines 380Z micro, with VDU and storage to audio cassette.

Technology had made an enormous leap between 1981 when I left school and
1986 when I got my first job, by which time a UNIX computer with special
software was able to perform logic and timing simulation of digital circuits
that engineers were designing, with output either to a an A0 pen plotter, or
to a Versatec printer that used special paper that stank of paraffin and
which could print a diagram on A4-width paper at about 5 seconds per sheet -
much faster that a vector plotter or a matrix printer.

On 10:35 22 Nov 2021, Jim Lesurf said:

> In article <XnsADE9C356F2BAD37B93@144.76.35.252>, Pamela
> <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I started the same, using McCracken's Guide to Fortan with punched
>> cards on an ICL 1906. Took a week just to see if the syntax was
>> right.
>
> Have a feeling that I've lost my McCracken! I'd forgotten the name
> until I read the above! However I still have a small stack of virgin
> punch-cards!
>
> Used them for years as mm-wave attenuators. We discovered that the
> thickness of 1 punc-card attenuated a 95GHz beam by about 0.1dB. So
> were able to tweak beam power levels by inserting a given number in
> the beam path. :-) (Used black dusbin liner to filter off near IR,
> etc.)

There was almost an entire punched-card economy in those days. They were
useful in so many unintended ways!

On 22/11/2021 14:12, NY wrote:
> I had access to one of the mainframe computers (the OS was Multics)
> which could plot to various A4 HP pen-plotters

That reminded me of a project I was part of in the early 1980s. There
was a desk-top "IBM Compatible" that was used to produce "Management
Information" as well as being a day-to-day workhorse for the junior
manager. It had an A4 sized HP pen plotter and coloured pens for all
the pretty graphs that had to be produced now and again, and a
daisy-wheel printer for normal use. I discovered that if I took the
graphical output and sent it to the daisy-wheel instead, I got a nice
print-out of all the commands to operate the plotter.

I took it home to study, and it was fairly easy to follow: Select Pen
Colour (not by colour but by position); Pen Up allowed Go To positioning
without drawing; Pen Down allowed Go To while drawing; Pen Return put
the current pen back and ended the file.

At the time I had my first home laptop (a 486 with Windows 3.0) and I
had treated myself to WordPerfect 6, the first Windows compatible
version of that word processor. It had some clever bits that Word
didn't have, including the ability to incorporate HPGL code in the text
to draw pictures. Output to a dot matrix printer it gave a print
document with embedded vector graphics (unfortunately only in
monochrome). Great fun though!

Jim