In message <ctmj9h54i8h4de7959c9rpfinvnod2s30g@4ax.com>, at 11:06:42 on
Fri, 3 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:57:34 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <451h9htkrbtuj5vha961q266lnv625lpg3@4ax.com>, at 11:06:12 on
>>Thu, 2 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:54:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ld7e9hlesp9nfd8von3qk7vueaf57vruvm@4ax.com>, at 09:08:51 on
>>>>Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>On Tue, 31 May 2022 12:02:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the days of the 322s and then the 317/7s Stansted Express stock was
>>>>>>>> considerably more comfortable than the normal GA WA commuter stock. It
>>>>>>>> had much better and more widely spaced seats, especially on the 317s,
>>>>>>>> catering (free for 1st class), payphones and even onboard hosts who'd
>>>>>>>> not only serve you coffee (or gin) but also allow you to pay on the
>>>>>>>> train, in contrast to other GA London services.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Were the StanEx 379s enhanced in any way? I doubt that the new 720s are.
>>>>>>>But then, Stansted/Ryanport is hardly a premium airport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's mainly for Essex-man to go on holiday from, which explains why
>>>>>>modally it's a very poor performer for rail. Including the derisory
>>>>>>service from the north, and nothing direct from Mid-Essex.
>>>>>>
>>>>>A poor performer? I haven't seen figures for some years but it was a
>>>>>very strong performer, the best of the London airports.
>>>>
>>>>My recollection from such reports is that it was not the best performer,
>>>>especially given the high percentage of rail travel to Gatwick.
>>>>
>>>>>And you'll find that Essex residents, like Essex employees, make up a
>>>>>small proportion of the passengers.
>>>>
>>>>You have some statistics for that? But even if there's loads of
>>>>Hertfordshire holidaymakers (who for some reason don't want to use
>>>>Luton) there's no obvious public transport link.
>>>
>>>You're misrepresenting Stansted, and the full title of London Stansted
>>>gives a clue why.
>>
>>And London Southend... ?
>
>What about it?

Another airport with London in its name, that's nevertheless probably
got a lot of Essex residents as passengers.

....

>I used Benidorm as a code for low-cost low-status holiday, as I expect
>you know. I don't think there's much of a charter market at Stansted
>as the holiday market seems to have changed with the growth of the
>low-cost airlines.

Charter flights are still a big thing from non-London airports (but also
Luton). Stansted seems to have found a niche as a low-cost base because
it's never really caught on as the *3rd* London airport for flag
carriers who didn't want to operate from Gatwick.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t805qp$4i0$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:25:13 on Fri, 10 Jun
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <5c3u9hl2iesmejavgh16e3j8oc9ls3cpr6@4ax.com>, at 09:44:40 on
>>> Tue, 7 Jun 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 21:11:09 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All academic now, we are stuck with Shapps a little longer.
>>>>
>>>> Well, it's now being rumoured that a reshuffle is in the offing as the
>>>> PM purges those he suspects may have been disloyal in the secrecy of
>>>> the ballot booth. So Grant Shapps may be moved anyway.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think he's done too badly, though. Transport is one of those
>>>> mid-ranking departments that tends to suffer from being used as either
>>>> a dumping ground for loyalists who aren't good enough for a top job but
>>>> can't easily be sacked, or as a testing ground for up and coming new
>>>> kids on the block who aren't really interested in anything other than
>>>> their own promotion. You could argue that Shapps falls into the former
>>>> category (or possibly even the latter, given that I suspect he still
>>>> harbours ambitions of further advancement), but he has, nonetheless,
>>>> managed to do the job reasonably well. I think he's navigated the
>>>> post-Covid rail landscape fairly well, and many of the issues he's had
>>>> to deal with (such as the Crossrail delays) were inherited by him
>>>> rather than happening on his watch. His big test is likely to be how
>>>> well he deals with the threat of industrial action by the rail unions
>>>> in the coming weeks and months.
>>>
>>> I thought Shapps did very well in the Covid era routine early morning
>>> "defending the indefensible" media interviews. Perhaps too well, as he
>>> got taken off them.
>>
>> He's not respected by specialist railway journalists, who find him
>> unusually uninterested in the subject, even by the dismal standards of his
>> predecessors. His only involvement seems to when a photo opportunity
>> presents itself.
>
> Transport is more than just railways, of course.

Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
situation.

On 10/06/2022 19:52, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t7koj2$km8$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:46 on Mon, 6 Jun 2022,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> Airlines here have been cancelling lots of flights, not because they are
>>> necessarily short of planes or aircrew, but they want to ration the
>>> number of passengers needing to be processed by the airport.
>>
>> When I travelled a couple of weeks ago, the majority of people around
>> us at
>> the Transfer Desk seemed to be people who'd missed their flight due to
>> long
>> security queues.
>>
>> Transfer desk staff were telling everyone it was due to shortage of staff
>> at the security check.
>
> And reports earlier this week said that recursively, shorages of
> customer-facing staff were also caused by a shortage of the security
> folk assigned to checking the former onto their shifts.

Surely they know to prioritise checking security staff above everything,
in the same way that, in a fuel distribution crisis, fuel tankers come
first above the ambulances etc. that they are refuelling.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:33:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ctmj9h54i8h4de7959c9rpfinvnod2s30g@4ax.com>, at 11:06:42 on
>Fri, 3 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:57:34 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <451h9htkrbtuj5vha961q266lnv625lpg3@4ax.com>, at 11:06:12 on
>>>Thu, 2 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:54:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <ld7e9hlesp9nfd8von3qk7vueaf57vruvm@4ax.com>, at 09:08:51 on
>>>>>Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>>On Tue, 31 May 2022 12:02:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the days of the 322s and then the 317/7s Stansted Express stock was
>>>>>>>>> considerably more comfortable than the normal GA WA commuter stock. It
>>>>>>>>> had much better and more widely spaced seats, especially on the 317s,
>>>>>>>>> catering (free for 1st class), payphones and even onboard hosts who'd
>>>>>>>>> not only serve you coffee (or gin) but also allow you to pay on the
>>>>>>>>> train, in contrast to other GA London services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Were the StanEx 379s enhanced in any way? I doubt that the new 720s are.
>>>>>>>>But then, Stansted/Ryanport is hardly a premium airport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's mainly for Essex-man to go on holiday from, which explains why
>>>>>>>modally it's a very poor performer for rail. Including the derisory
>>>>>>>service from the north, and nothing direct from Mid-Essex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>A poor performer? I haven't seen figures for some years but it was a
>>>>>>very strong performer, the best of the London airports.
>>>>>
>>>>>My recollection from such reports is that it was not the best performer,
>>>>>especially given the high percentage of rail travel to Gatwick.
>>>>>
>>>>>>And you'll find that Essex residents, like Essex employees, make up a
>>>>>>small proportion of the passengers.
>>>>>
>>>>>You have some statistics for that? But even if there's loads of
>>>>>Hertfordshire holidaymakers (who for some reason don't want to use
>>>>>Luton) there's no obvious public transport link.
>>>>
>>>>You're misrepresenting Stansted, and the full title of London Stansted
>>>>gives a clue why.
>>>
>>>And London Southend... ?
>>
>>What about it?
>
>Another airport with London in its name, that's nevertheless probably
>got a lot of Essex residents as passengers.
>
Since Easyjet pulled out Southend has very few passengers from Essex,
or from anywhere else come to that. I note that their arrivals and
departures boards are empty today, for instance.
>...
>
>>I used Benidorm as a code for low-cost low-status holiday, as I expect
>>you know. I don't think there's much of a charter market at Stansted
>>as the holiday market seems to have changed with the growth of the
>>low-cost airlines.
>
>Charter flights are still a big thing from non-London airports (but also
>Luton). Stansted seems to have found a niche as a low-cost base because
>it's never really caught on as the *3rd* London airport for flag
>carriers who didn't want to operate from Gatwick.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>
>Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>situation.

No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
money for them. They made their bed.

On 2022-06-10 19:27:49 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t7o0tm$12b$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:12:20 on Tue, 7 Jun
> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2022-06-06 06:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <t7dguq$1lot$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 18:38:34 on Fri, 3 Jun
>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>> rp>>> Having lived in the East Midlands my choice of airport would
>>> rp>>>be: East Midlands, Birmingham, Luton, Manchester, Gatwick (in
>>> rp>>>that order). Stansted was way off my scale.
>>>
>>>>> I'm in the process of organising a business trip to somewhere in the
>>>>> East Midlands.  From CH, the options are a once-a-day flight to
>>>>> Birmingham, or else LHR, LCY or (infrequently) LGW.  Not particularly
>>>>> helpful.
>
>>> CH was always a little more difficult from the East Midlands, with the
>>> only direct flight being a midday BMIBaby one (and we know what
>>> happened to them) later substituted by an Easyjet flight, but they were
>>> never that invested in East Midlands airport.
>
>>> So I tended to fly from Luton (despite the timings not allowing me to
>>> use a train, even though on a direct line) which had the advantage that
>>> if I needed to change the flight (which EasyJet allowed fairly
>>> fuss-free) I could also come back via Gatwick (which EasyJet regarded
>>> as "just a change of flight time, not destination", with more flights
>>> too) and then get a Thameslink train back to Luton to pick up the car.
>>> Which in any event I used to leave at the station rather than grapple
>>> with the airport's medium term parking.
>>
>> The only Luton flight is a 22.20 schedueld arrival,
>
> Yes, I'm familiar with driving back on a flight at around that time.
> Driving home got to listen to "Today in Parliament" which is the
> graveyard slot on R4 around midnight.

Fine if you are returning to the UK and have a private car parked at
the airport. As I am not based in the UK and will be arriving from
abroad, a 22.20 arrival is not really viable.

>> and the return is 07.25 departure. Netiether is very compatible with
>> onward travel, so not especially useful.
>
> Not surprised there are fewer outbound flights at the moment - I
> usually managed to get one after lunch, which then meant I could have
> pre-meetings with people, having arrived in CH late afternoon.

In all the years I have been in CH, there has never been a mid-day
Luton flight to/from ZRH, EasyJet has only had early morning and late
evening options. Perhaps Geneva is different, but it is ~4 hours from
Zürich, so not really viable.

>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Train into SPI, from where you can pick up the MML?
>>> If you mean TGV+EuroStar, it'd be an all-day trip. I've done it once
>>> from Geneva (via Lyon to Paris) and while I could work on the train(s)
>>> and didn't have anywhere else to be that day, I can see it's
>>> not-for-everyone. {That was the TGV where my booked first class seat
>>> turned out to be a luggage rack. Cue Gallic Shrug. Luckily the rest of
>>> double-decker carriage was empty.}
>>
>> I've made that journey lots of times, and if I have time to spare, it
>> is my prefered option. Harder to make it work for a business trip,
>> though, especially as I'd be travelling with others who might not take
>> the level of enjoyment I do in rail travel.
>>
>>> There used to be quite a regular service (by Easyjet-CH) from Geneva to
>>> Gatwick, from were it's Thameslink+MML. I'm not familiar with modern
>>> (let alone post-Covid) timetables. If we are talking about starting in
>>> Zurich, I'd probably begin by looking for a transfer at Dusseldorf (or
>>> possibly Schiphol) to Birmingham. But the train service from Birmingham
>>> airport to the east Midlands is dreadful, so it would need a minicab.
>>
>> A change of planes destroys any benefit in terms of timings of flying
>> into Brum rather than London.
>
> I found Dusseldorf very efficient when changing planes, and managed to
> routinely make 1hr transfers.

Birmingham International to Derby by rail is ~1 hour. St Pancras to
Derby is ~1h30. 1 hour to change planes in Düsseldorf (or some other
connecting airport), plus longer actual flight times due to a less
direct route, and it's quicker to just take a direct flight to LCY.

>> Basically the only viable option for this trip is to fly into either
>> LHR or LCY, and complete the journey by rail.
>
> As someone else has noted, beware the upcoming rail strike season.

Yes, it looks like it's going to throw a spanner in our plans.

> I suspect LCY would be an easier transfer than LHR. [DLR to Bank, then
> Northern Line].

If only there were an easy connection from LCY to the Elzabeth line. Or
alternatively, DLR to Stratford International and HS1 to St.P. Good
think that isn't a set-down only stop.

Robin

On 2022-06-10 19:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <ctmj9h54i8h4de7959c9rpfinvnod2s30g@4ax.com>, at 11:06:42 on
> Fri, 3 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:57:34 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <451h9htkrbtuj5vha961q266lnv625lpg3@4ax.com>, at 11:06:12 on
>>> Thu, 2 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:54:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ld7e9hlesp9nfd8von3qk7vueaf57vruvm@4ax.com>, at 09:08:51 on
>>>>> Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 12:02:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the days of the 322s and then the 317/7s Stansted Express stock was
>>>>>>>>> considerably more comfortable than the normal GA WA commuter stock. It
>>>>>>>>> had much better and more widely spaced seats, especially on the 317s,
>>>>>>>>> catering (free for 1st class), payphones and even onboard hosts who'd
>>>>>>>>> not only serve you coffee (or gin) but also allow you to pay on the
>>>>>>>>> train, in contrast to other GA London services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Were the StanEx 379s enhanced in any way? I doubt that the new 720s are.
>>>>>>>> But then, Stansted/Ryanport is hardly a premium airport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's mainly for Essex-man to go on holiday from, which explains why
>>>>>>> modally it's a very poor performer for rail. Including the derisory
>>>>>>> service from the north, and nothing direct from Mid-Essex.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A poor performer? I haven't seen figures for some years but it was a
>>>>>> very strong performer, the best of the London airports.
>>>>>
>>>>> My recollection from such reports is that it was not the best performer,
>>>>> especially given the high percentage of rail travel to Gatwick.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And you'll find that Essex residents, like Essex employees, make up a
>>>>>> small proportion of the passengers.
>>>>>
>>>>> You have some statistics for that? But even if there's loads of
>>>>> Hertfordshire holidaymakers (who for some reason don't want to use
>>>>> Luton) there's no obvious public transport link.
>>>>
>>>> You're misrepresenting Stansted, and the full title of London Stansted
>>>> gives a clue why.
>>>
>>> And London Southend... ?
>>
>> What about it?
>
> Another airport with London in its name, that's nevertheless probably
> got a lot of Essex residents as passengers.

Also Oxford is part of the LON group of airports.

>> I used Benidorm as a code for low-cost low-status holiday, as I expect
>> you know. I don't think there's much of a charter market at Stansted
>> as the holiday market seems to have changed with the growth of the
>> low-cost airlines.
>
> Charter flights are still a big thing from non-London airports (but
> also Luton). Stansted seems to have found a niche as a low-cost base
> because it's never really caught on as the *3rd* London airport for
> flag carriers who didn't want to operate from Gatwick.

LCY is more of a "3rd airport" in terms of scheduled flights. Although
it is restricted in the size of aircraft, the likes of the C-Series ...
er A220 offer a decent capacity and can operate out of LCY (RIP BAe146).

Robin

Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
> On 2022-06-10 19:27:49 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t7o0tm$12b$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:12:20 on Tue, 7 Jun
>> 2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-06-06 06:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t7dguq$1lot$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 18:38:34 on Fri, 3 Jun
>>>> 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Having lived in the East Midlands my choice of airport would
>>>>>>> be: East Midlands, Birmingham, Luton, Manchester, Gatwick (in
>>>>>>> that order). Stansted was way off my scale.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm in the process of organising a business trip to somewhere in the
>>>>>> East Midlands.  From CH, the options are a once-a-day flight to
>>>>>> Birmingham, or else LHR, LCY or (infrequently) LGW.  Not particularly
>>>>>> helpful.
>>
>>>> CH was always a little more difficult from the East Midlands, with the
>>>> only direct flight being a midday BMIBaby one (and we know what
>>>> happened to them) later substituted by an Easyjet flight, but they were
>>>> never that invested in East Midlands airport.
>>
>>>> So I tended to fly from Luton (despite the timings not allowing me to
>>>> use a train, even though on a direct line) which had the advantage that
>>>> if I needed to change the flight (which EasyJet allowed fairly
>>>> fuss-free) I could also come back via Gatwick (which EasyJet regarded
>>>> as "just a change of flight time, not destination", with more flights
>>>> too) and then get a Thameslink train back to Luton to pick up the car.
>>>> Which in any event I used to leave at the station rather than grapple
>>>> with the airport's medium term parking.
>>>
>>> The only Luton flight is a 22.20 schedueld arrival,
>>
>> Yes, I'm familiar with driving back on a flight at around that time.
>> Driving home got to listen to "Today in Parliament" which is the
>> graveyard slot on R4 around midnight.
>
> Fine if you are returning to the UK and have a private car parked at
> the airport. As I am not based in the UK and will be arriving from
> abroad, a 22.20 arrival is not really viable.
>
>>> and the return is 07.25 departure. Netiether is very compatible with
>>> onward travel, so not especially useful.
>>
>> Not surprised there are fewer outbound flights at the moment - I
>> usually managed to get one after lunch, which then meant I could have
>> pre-meetings with people, having arrived in CH late afternoon.
>
> In all the years I have been in CH, there has never been a mid-day
> Luton flight to/from ZRH, EasyJet has only had early morning and late
> evening options. Perhaps Geneva is different, but it is ~4 hours from
> Zürich, so not really viable.
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Train into SPI, from where you can pick up the MML?
>>>> If you mean TGV+EuroStar, it'd be an all-day trip. I've done it once
>>>> from Geneva (via Lyon to Paris) and while I could work on the train(s)
>>>> and didn't have anywhere else to be that day, I can see it's
>>>> not-for-everyone. {That was the TGV where my booked first class seat
>>>> turned out to be a luggage rack. Cue Gallic Shrug. Luckily the rest of
>>>> double-decker carriage was empty.}
>>>
>>> I've made that journey lots of times, and if I have time to spare, it
>>> is my prefered option. Harder to make it work for a business trip,
>>> though, especially as I'd be travelling with others who might not take
>>> the level of enjoyment I do in rail travel.
>>>
>>>> There used to be quite a regular service (by Easyjet-CH) from Geneva to
>>>> Gatwick, from were it's Thameslink+MML. I'm not familiar with modern
>>>> (let alone post-Covid) timetables. If we are talking about starting in
>>>> Zurich, I'd probably begin by looking for a transfer at Dusseldorf (or
>>>> possibly Schiphol) to Birmingham. But the train service from Birmingham
>>>> airport to the east Midlands is dreadful, so it would need a minicab.
>>>
>>> A change of planes destroys any benefit in terms of timings of flying
>>> into Brum rather than London.
>>
>> I found Dusseldorf very efficient when changing planes, and managed to
>> routinely make 1hr transfers.
>
> Birmingham International to Derby by rail is ~1 hour. St Pancras to
> Derby is ~1h30. 1 hour to change planes in Düsseldorf (or some other
> connecting airport), plus longer actual flight times due to a less
> direct route, and it's quicker to just take a direct flight to LCY.
>
>>> Basically the only viable option for this trip is to fly into either
>>> LHR or LCY, and complete the journey by rail.
>>
>> As someone else has noted, beware the upcoming rail strike season.
>
> Yes, it looks like it's going to throw a spanner in our plans.
>
>> I suspect LCY would be an easier transfer than LHR. [DLR to Bank, then
>> Northern Line].
>
> If only there were an easy connection from LCY to the Elzabeth line. Or
> alternatively, DLR to Stratford International and HS1 to St.P. Good
> think that isn't a set-down only stop.
>
> Robin
>
>

Once there is more than one of you travelling airport taxis soon out
compete the railway both in terms of time and cost. Air travel often stops
you using the cheaper Advance rail tickets because of the uncertainty of
your flight arrival time on the return leg.

On 11/06/2022 10:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>
>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>> situation.
>
> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
> money for them. They made their bed.
>
The problem is not that they laid off the staff, directly anyway.

The problem is that airports booked more flights than they can handle
and the aeroplane companies have scheduled more flights than they can crew.

Eurostar has queues going around the shopping area so they're not immune
from the same mistakes.

I cannot see these problems being resolved this year.

In message <0pn8ahlmbp2ec9o8iatdglb1f9agmfhm6m@4ax.com>, at 10:26:49 on
Sat, 11 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:33:52 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ctmj9h54i8h4de7959c9rpfinvnod2s30g@4ax.com>, at 11:06:42 on
>>Fri, 3 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:57:34 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <451h9htkrbtuj5vha961q266lnv625lpg3@4ax.com>, at 11:06:12 on
>>>>Thu, 2 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:54:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>In message <ld7e9hlesp9nfd8von3qk7vueaf57vruvm@4ax.com>, at 09:08:51 on
>>>>>>Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>On Tue, 31 May 2022 12:02:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the days of the 322s and then the 317/7s Stansted Express
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> considerably more comfortable than the normal GA WA commuter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> had much better and more widely spaced seats, especially on the 317s,
>>>>>>>>>> catering (free for 1st class), payphones and even onboard hosts who'd
>>>>>>>>>> not only serve you coffee (or gin) but also allow you to pay on the
>>>>>>>>>> train, in contrast to other GA London services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Were the StanEx 379s enhanced in any way? I doubt that the new
>>>>>>>>>720s are.
>>>>>>>>>But then, Stansted/Ryanport is hardly a premium airport.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's mainly for Essex-man to go on holiday from, which explains why
>>>>>>>>modally it's a very poor performer for rail. Including the derisory
>>>>>>>>service from the north, and nothing direct from Mid-Essex.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A poor performer? I haven't seen figures for some years but it was a
>>>>>>>very strong performer, the best of the London airports.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My recollection from such reports is that it was not the best performer,
>>>>>>especially given the high percentage of rail travel to Gatwick.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And you'll find that Essex residents, like Essex employees, make up a
>>>>>>>small proportion of the passengers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You have some statistics for that? But even if there's loads of
>>>>>>Hertfordshire holidaymakers (who for some reason don't want to use
>>>>>>Luton) there's no obvious public transport link.
>>>>>
>>>>>You're misrepresenting Stansted, and the full title of London Stansted
>>>>>gives a clue why.
>>>>
>>>>And London Southend... ?
>>>
>>>What about it?
>>
>>Another airport with London in its name, that's nevertheless probably
>>got a lot of Essex residents as passengers.
>>
>Since Easyjet pulled out Southend has very few passengers from Essex,
>or from anywhere else come to that. I note that their arrivals and
>departures boards are empty today, for instance.

Well worth opening the new station there:

2018/19 611,000
2019/20 757,000
2020/21 64,524

Figures from ORR, and of Covid has had an effect (the year end is 1st
April, so they must be working on 2021/22's by now, but will be
published in November).

For balance, I see East Midlands Parkway languishing too, as well as
earlier stagnating at less than half of its projected 740,000 a year:

2018/19 361,000 (Interchange 19,949)
2019/20 343,000 (Interchange 19,019)
2020/21 39,350 (Interchange 3,899)

Usual disclaimers about the false-precision of these numbers.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t81o5i$hsf$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:44:18 on Sat, 11 Jun
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-06-10 19:33:52 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <ctmj9h54i8h4de7959c9rpfinvnod2s30g@4ax.com>, at 11:06:42
>>on Fri, 3 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 2 Jun 2022 18:57:34 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <451h9htkrbtuj5vha961q266lnv625lpg3@4ax.com>, at
>>>>11:06:12 on
>>>> Thu, 2 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 10:54:22 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ld7e9hlesp9nfd8von3qk7vueaf57vruvm@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>09:08:51 on
>>>>>> Wed, 1 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 May 2022 12:02:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the days of the 322s and then the 317/7s Stansted Express
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> considerably more comfortable than the normal GA WA commuter
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> had much better and more widely spaced seats, especially on the 317s,
>>>>>>>>>> catering (free for 1st class), payphones and even onboard hosts who'd
>>>>>>>>>> not only serve you coffee (or gin) but also allow you to pay on the
>>>>>>>>>> train, in contrast to other GA London services.
>>>>>>>>> Were the StanEx 379s enhanced in any way? I doubt that the
>>>>>>>>>new 720s are.
>>>>>>>>> But then, Stansted/Ryanport is hardly a premium airport.
>>>>>>>> It's mainly for Essex-man to go on holiday from, which
>>>>>>>>explains why
>>>>>>>> modally it's a very poor performer for rail. Including the derisory
>>>>>>>> service from the north, and nothing direct from Mid-Essex.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A poor performer? I haven't seen figures for some years but it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> very strong performer, the best of the London airports.
>>>>>> My recollection from such reports is that it was not the best
>>>>>>performer,
>>>>>> especially given the high percentage of rail travel to Gatwick.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And you'll find that Essex residents, like Essex employees, make
>>>>>>>up a
>>>>>>> small proportion of the passengers.
>>>>>> You have some statistics for that? But even if there's loads of
>>>>>> Hertfordshire holidaymakers (who for some reason don't want to use
>>>>>> Luton) there's no obvious public transport link.
>>>>> You're misrepresenting Stansted, and the full title of London
>>>>>Stansted
>>>>> gives a clue why.

>>>> And London Southend... ?

>>> What about it?

>> Another airport with London in its name, that's nevertheless
>>probably got a lot of Essex residents as passengers.
>
>Also Oxford is part of the LON group of airports.

I know, but I don't think anyone but Oxford actually counts it.

>>> I used Benidorm as a code for low-cost low-status holiday, as I expect
>>> you know. I don't think there's much of a charter market at Stansted
>>> as the holiday market seems to have changed with the growth of the
>>> low-cost airlines.

>> Charter flights are still a big thing from non-London airports (but
>>also Luton). Stansted seems to have found a niche as a low-cost base
>>because it's never really caught on as the *3rd* London airport for
>>flag carriers who didn't want to operate from Gatwick.
>
>LCY is more of a "3rd airport" in terms of scheduled flights. Although
>it is restricted in the size of aircraft, the likes of the C-Series ...
>er A220 offer a decent capacity and can operate out of LCY (RIP
>BAe146).

To some extent it seems that LCY has taken over the once-hoped-for
mantle of Maplin.
--
Roland Perry

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>
>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>> situation.
>
> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
> money for them. They made their bed.

And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
available.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t81nup$gjm$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:40:41 on Sat, 11 Jun
2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>On 2022-06-10 19:27:49 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <t7o0tm$12b$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:12:20 on Tue, 7 Jun
>>2022, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2022-06-06 06:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <t7dguq$1lot$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 18:38:34 on Fri, 3
>>>>Jun 2022, "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> rp>>> Having lived in the East Midlands my choice of airport would
>>>> rp>>>be: East Midlands, Birmingham, Luton, Manchester, Gatwick
>>>> rp>>>(in that order). Stansted was way off my scale.
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm in the process of organising a business trip to somewhere in
>>>>>>the East Midlands.  From CH, the options are a once-a-day flight
>>>>>>to Birmingham, or else LHR, LCY or (infrequently) LGW.  Not
>>>>>>particularly helpful.
>>
>>>> CH was always a little more difficult from the East Midlands, with
>>>>the only direct flight being a midday BMIBaby one (and we know
>>>>what happened to them) later substituted by an Easyjet flight, but
>>>>they were never that invested in East Midlands airport.
>>
>>>> So I tended to fly from Luton (despite the timings not allowing me
>>>>to use a train, even though on a direct line) which had the
>>>>advantage that if I needed to change the flight (which EasyJet
>>>>allowed fairly fuss-free) I could also come back via Gatwick (which
>>>>EasyJet regarded as "just a change of flight time, not
>>>>destination", with more flights too) and then get a Thameslink
>>>>train back to Luton to pick up the car. Which in any event I used
>>>>to leave at the station rather than grapple with the airport's medium term parking.

>>> The only Luton flight is a 22.20 schedueld arrival,

>> Yes, I'm familiar with driving back on a flight at around that time.
>>Driving home got to listen to "Today in Parliament" which is the
>>graveyard slot on R4 around midnight.
>
>Fine if you are returning to the UK and have a private car parked at
>the airport. As I am not based in the UK and will be arriving from
>abroad, a 22.20 arrival is not really viable.
>
>>> and the return is 07.25 departure. Netiether is very compatible with
>>>onward travel, so not especially useful.

>> Not surprised there are fewer outbound flights at the moment - I
>>usually managed to get one after lunch, which then meant I could have
>>pre-meetings with people, having arrived in CH late afternoon.
>
>In all the years I have been in CH, there has never been a mid-day
>Luton flight to/from ZRH, EasyJet has only had early morning and late
>evening options. Perhaps Geneva is different, but it is ~4 hours from
>Zürich, so not really viable.

The only time I was ever in Zurich, it was to connect to Geneva when my
schedule was disrupted by the "ash cloud". According to Google Maps a
train takes a little under three hours, nevertheless a pedestrian 50mph.

>>>>> Train into SPI, from where you can pick up the MML?

>>>> If you mean TGV+EuroStar, it'd be an all-day trip. I've done it
>>>>once from Geneva (via Lyon to Paris) and while I could work on the
>>>>train(s) and didn't have anywhere else to be that day, I can see
>>>>it's not-for-everyone. {That was the TGV where my booked first
>>>>class seat turned out to be a luggage rack. Cue Gallic Shrug.
>>>>Luckily the rest of double-decker carriage was empty.}

>>> I've made that journey lots of times, and if I have time to spare,
>>>it is my prefered option. Harder to make it work for a business
>>>trip, though, especially as I'd be travelling with others who might
>>>not take the level of enjoyment I do in rail travel.
>>>
>>>> There used to be quite a regular service (by Easyjet-CH) from
>>>>Geneva to Gatwick, from were it's Thameslink+MML. I'm not familiar
>>>>with modern (let alone post-Covid) timetables. If we are talking
>>>>about starting in Zurich, I'd probably begin by looking for a
>>>>transfer at Dusseldorf (or possibly Schiphol) to Birmingham. But
>>>>the train service from Birmingham airport to the east Midlands is
>>>>dreadful, so it would need a minicab.

>>> A change of planes destroys any benefit in terms of timings of
>>>flying into Brum rather than London.

>> I found Dusseldorf very efficient when changing planes, and managed
>>to routinely make 1hr transfers.
>
>Birmingham International to Derby by rail is ~1 hour.

Like I said, the rail link is awful. But a minicab would better deliver
you to your destination (unless you are visiting the locomotive works).

>St Pancras to Derby is ~1h30. 1 hour to change planes in Düsseldorf
>(or some other connecting airport), plus longer actual flight times due
>to a less direct route, and it's quicker to just take a direct flight
>to LCY.
>
>>> Basically the only viable option for this trip is to fly into either
>>>LHR or LCY, and complete the journey by rail.
>> As someone else has noted, beware the upcoming rail strike season.
>
>Yes, it looks like it's going to throw a spanner in our plans.
>
>> I suspect LCY would be an easier transfer than LHR. [DLR to Bank,
>>then Northern Line].
>
>If only there were an easy connection from LCY to the Elzabeth line. Or
>alternatively, DLR to Stratford International and HS1 to St.P.

How about cab from airport to Stratford International? Might just make
in it 15 minutes.

>Good think that isn't a set-down only stop.

It would be better if they did away with all the silly special ticketing
and embraced it as a full part of the London rail system. The set-down
only thing was an idea to assist people understanding it regarded itself
as a posh expensive train, and not for the likes of them.

ps The short StP-Derby time is assisted by having only one intermediate
stop, at Leicester. Not a local train for local people, it seems.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t808lv$ujb$2@dont-email.me>, at 20:13:51 on Fri, 10 Jun
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t805qp$4i0$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:25:13 on Fri, 10 Jun
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <5c3u9hl2iesmejavgh16e3j8oc9ls3cpr6@4ax.com>, at 09:44:40 on
>>>> Tue, 7 Jun 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Mon, 6 Jun 2022 21:11:09 +0100, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All academic now, we are stuck with Shapps a little longer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, it's now being rumoured that a reshuffle is in the offing as the
>>>>> PM purges those he suspects may have been disloyal in the secrecy of
>>>>> the ballot booth. So Grant Shapps may be moved anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think he's done too badly, though. Transport is one of those
>>>>> mid-ranking departments that tends to suffer from being used as either
>>>>> a dumping ground for loyalists who aren't good enough for a top job but
>>>>> can't easily be sacked, or as a testing ground for up and coming new
>>>>> kids on the block who aren't really interested in anything other than
>>>>> their own promotion. You could argue that Shapps falls into the former
>>>>> category (or possibly even the latter, given that I suspect he still
>>>>> harbours ambitions of further advancement), but he has, nonetheless,
>>>>> managed to do the job reasonably well. I think he's navigated the
>>>>> post-Covid rail landscape fairly well, and many of the issues he's had
>>>>> to deal with (such as the Crossrail delays) were inherited by him
>>>>> rather than happening on his watch. His big test is likely to be how
>>>>> well he deals with the threat of industrial action by the rail unions
>>>>> in the coming weeks and months.
>>>>
>>>> I thought Shapps did very well in the Covid era routine early morning
>>>> "defending the indefensible" media interviews. Perhaps too well, as he
>>>> got taken off them.
>>>
>>> He's not respected by specialist railway journalists, who find him
>>> unusually uninterested in the subject, even by the dismal standards of his
>>> predecessors. His only involvement seems to when a photo opportunity
>>> presents itself.
>>
>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>
>Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>situation.

Not sure what he can do, it's a Treasury thing (the lack of financial
support earlier in the year) and the Home Office (slow security
clearance for new employees).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t81ssj$h71$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:04:50 on Sat, 11 Jun
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 11/06/2022 10:33, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>
>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>> situation.

>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the
>>airports and airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite
>>being offered furlough money for them.

They got furlough money, but as an industry, travel bans meant they were
much later "bouncing back", so ran out of money.

>>They made their bed.
>>
>The problem is not that they laid off the staff, directly anyway.

The problem at airports is said to be mainly lack of baggage handlers
and other manual workers with clearance to go airside.

>The problem is that airports booked more flights than they can handle
>and the aeroplane companies have scheduled more flights than they can
>crew.

Airlines have separate staffing issues, but better co-ordination between
the two sets of operations would have been helpful.

>Eurostar has queues going around the shopping area so they're not
>immune from the same mistakes.

Lack of trained/cleared security staff presumably.

>I cannot see these problems being resolved this year.

Leaked memo today from EasyJet saying it's going to get worse.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t80aof$7np$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:49:18 on Fri, 10 Jun
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 10/06/2022 19:52, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t7koj2$km8$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:31:46 on Mon, 6 Jun
>>2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> Airlines here have been cancelling lots of flights, not because
>>>>they are necessarily short of planes or aircrew, but they want to
>>>>ration the number of passengers needing to be processed by the airport.
>>>
>>> When I travelled a couple of weeks ago, the majority of people
>>>around us at the Transfer Desk seemed to be people who'd missed
>>>their flight due to long security queues.
>>>
>>> Transfer desk staff were telling everyone it was due to shortage of staff
>>> at the security check.

>> And reports earlier this week said that recursively, shorages of
>>customer-facing staff were also caused by a shortage of the security
>>folk assigned to checking the former onto their shifts.
>
>Surely they know to prioritise checking security staff above everything,
>in the same way that, in a fuel distribution crisis, fuel tankers come
>first above the ambulances etc. that they are refuelling.

So what do you do: retrain baggage handlers with clearance as security
staff, or persuade Priti Patel to speed up issuing clearances to trained
security staff (assuming you have lots of the latter to hand anyway).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t825fb$c18$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:31:23 on Sat, 11 Jun
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>
>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>> situation.
>>
>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>> money for them. They made their bed.
>
>And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>available.

Part of the problem is, reportedly, lots of lower-paid airport workers
realising they could get jobs elsewhere that didn't involve getting to
work at 5am, or routinely doing Saturdays and Sundays. So attracting
them back is proving difficult.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>
>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>> situation.
>>
>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>> money for them. They made their bed.
>
>And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are

No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>
>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>
> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.

Bah, humbug!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>
>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>
>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>
> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.

No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.

On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 16:42:44 +0100
Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>
>>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>>
>>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>>
>> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a
>flight
>> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
>> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.
>
>No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
>couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
>customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.

Unlikely. Just like every you get the eternal idiots bleating about being
stuck in a bank holiday traffic jam it'll be the same with school holiday
flights. Some people never learn. If you want to travel during the school
holidays you wait a week or 2 then go when the must-go-on-the-1st-day-can't-
wait plebs have been and come back.

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>>
>>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>>
>> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
>> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
>> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.
>
> No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
> couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
> customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.
>

You are assuming a single joined up industry. The airlines don’t provide
the security staff nor most of the other services that are in short supply.
The airlines have contracts with these providers. How at the time of
selling the holidays are they to know that these outfits can’t deliver?
Where the airlines are guilty of directly under providing is in the supply
of cabin crew.

Mind you, I landed at Heathrow T3 yesterday afternoon and it was very
quiet. There were more electronic passport gates than passengers waiting.
I’ve never had the choice of gates before!

On 11/06/2022 16:54, Tweed wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>
>>>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>>>
>>>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>>>
>>> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
>>> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
>>> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.
>>
>> No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
>> couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
>> customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.
>
> You are assuming a single joined up industry. The airlines don’t provide
> the security staff nor most of the other services that are in short supply.
> The airlines have contracts with these providers. How at the time of
> selling the holidays are they to know that these outfits can’t deliver?
> Where the airlines are guilty of directly under providing is in the supply
> of cabin crew.

A considerate airline might ask its providers whether they can supply
the required services before selling the holidays. Fortunately, we have
minimum standards for cabin crew, which can only be circumvented by
cancelling flights (or removing seats).

Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
> On 11/06/2022 16:54, Tweed wrote:
>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>> On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>>>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>>>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>>>>
>>>>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>>>>
>>>> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
>>>> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
>>>> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.
>>>
>>> No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
>>> couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
>>> customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.
>>
>> You are assuming a single joined up industry. The airlines don’t provide
>> the security staff nor most of the other services that are in short supply.
>> The airlines have contracts with these providers. How at the time of
>> selling the holidays are they to know that these outfits can’t deliver?
>> Where the airlines are guilty of directly under providing is in the supply
>> of cabin crew.
>
> A considerate airline might ask its providers whether they can supply
> the required services before selling the holidays. Fortunately, we have
> minimum standards for cabin crew, which can only be circumvented by
> cancelling flights (or removing seats).
>

Holidays are sold months in advance. Presumably providers are claiming they
can supply at that point and are latterly found wanting. Airports provide
security services as part of the landing fee. I very much doubt the airport
is going to say months in advance don’t bother flying to us as we can’t
cope. Only in the last week or so has Heathrow started to impose emergency
capacity caps on airlines.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> On 11/06/2022 16:54, Tweed wrote:
>>> Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>>>> On 11/06/2022 15:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Jun 2022 13:31:23 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Jun 2022 20:13:51 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Transport is more than just railways, of course.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Despite being a keen pilot, he's not been helpful with the current airport
>>>>>>>> situation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No reason he should. That mess is entirely at the door of the airports and
>>>>>>> airlines who laid off huge numbers of staff despite being offered furlough
>>>>>>> money for them. They made their bed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And we have to lie in it. Further extensions to this metaphor are
>>>>>
>>>>> No we don't, there are alternative transport options. Anyone who books a flight
>>>>> during school holidays with all the troubles going on knew exactly what
>>>>> they might be facing at the airport unless they'd been living under a rock.
>>>>
>>>> No, they booked a holiday, and the industry told them later that they
>>>> couldn't be bothered employing anyone to provide it. I hope potential
>>>> customers will watch, learn, and never buy anything from these sharks.
>>>
>>> You are assuming a single joined up industry. The airlines don’t provide
>>> the security staff nor most of the other services that are in short supply.
>>> The airlines have contracts with these providers. How at the time of
>>> selling the holidays are they to know that these outfits can’t deliver?
>>> Where the airlines are guilty of directly under providing is in the supply
>>> of cabin crew.
>>
>> A considerate airline might ask its providers whether they can supply
>> the required services before selling the holidays. Fortunately, we have
>> minimum standards for cabin crew, which can only be circumvented by
>> cancelling flights (or removing seats).
>>
>
> Holidays are sold months in advance. Presumably providers are claiming they
> can supply at that point and are latterly found wanting. Airports provide
> security services as part of the landing fee. I very much doubt the airport
> is going to say months in advance don’t bother flying to us as we can’t
> cope. Only in the last week or so has Heathrow started to impose emergency
> capacity caps on airlines.
>

It's not just in the UK. I'm flying back from AMS tomorrow, and this is
KLM's warning:
<https://www.klm.nl/en/information/travel-alerts/operational-issues-schiphol>