>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bbb?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>

The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with. “It’s
like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
this week.

…

At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway at a
time when passenger numbers have still not recovered from the pandemic. On
weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they will be
unlikely to creep up any further.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bbb?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>
> The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with. “It’s
> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
> this week.
>
> …
>
> At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway at a
> time when passenger numbers have still not recovered from the pandemic. On
> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they will be
> unlikely to creep up any further.
>
>

Unfortunately/fortunately (depending on your views) the rail workers will
lose this one. The covid lockdowns have trained most to have a plan B. The
rail workers will lose more in lost pay than they will ever hope to get
through a pay rise. The ones above median rail earnings can afford to
strike, but there are (by definition) an equal number below who will really
suffer.

Now, here’s a question: many people join a union for the representation it
gives you if you are accused of doing something wrong by your employer.
Then by virtue of that union membership you are practically obliged (at
least in the case of the railways) to come out on strike if a majority vote
for it. Is there a case for having one organisation for representation and
another for mass action? Why do both functions need to be done by one
union?

On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bbb?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>
> The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with. “It’s
> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
> this week.
>
> …
>
> At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway at a
> time when passenger numbers have still not recovered from the pandemic. On
> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they will be
> unlikely to creep up any further.
>

Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
would even contemplate using the train even in normal times. It's a long
way from the nearest station with no bus service.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t8k1gu$egr$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:22 on Sat, 18 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>
>>>https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bb
>>>b?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>> The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with.
>>“It’s
>> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
>> this week.
>> …
>> At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway
>>at a
>> time when passenger numbers have still not recovered from the pandemic. On
>> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
>> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they will be
>> unlikely to creep up any further.
>
>Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>would even contemplate using the train even in normal times.

There's the staff too. Several hospitality vox-pop yesterday saying that
many of their workers couldn't afford a "plan B".

>It's a long way from the nearest station with no bus service.

How for from the nearest station with a bus service ;)

But more seriously, there's some scope for employers to run a few
shuttle-buses.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
> The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with. “It’s
> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
> this week.

Surprised the railway Union Barons have not called for compensation
because their members cannot Work From Home?

On 18/06/2022 09:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
> disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
> would even contemplate using the train even in normal times. It's a long
> way from the nearest station with no bus service.

Just did a quick search, a lot of people offering packages including
travel by train with bus prebooked to take from the station.

"Probably the most glamorous train journey you will ever make with most
passengers dressed up for the concert".

Peter Brookes Times cartoon: June 18 2022

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/88296480-ee73-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=4c299a9c25249f7a003a97c0eed74fd2>

Hospitality chiefs fear they will lose £540m to walkout

<https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c381a090-ee75-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=04b4d9c42bea8c1553a87b42590add68>

On 18/06/2022 09:26, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t8k1gu$egr$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:22 on Sat, 18 Jun
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bb
>>>> b?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>>>  The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with.
>>> “It’s
>>> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
>>> this week.
>>>  …
>>>  At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway
>>> at a
>>> time when passenger numbers have still not  recovered from the
>>> pandemic. On
>>> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
>>> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they
>>> will be
>>> unlikely to creep up any further.
>>
>> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>> disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>> would even contemplate using the train even in normal times.
>
> There's the staff too. Several hospitality vox-pop yesterday saying that
> many of their workers couldn't afford a "plan B".

Not relevant in this case, the workers (cast and crew) live on site for
the season, a bit like fruit-pickers.

>
>> It's a long way from the nearest station with no bus service.
>
> How for from the nearest station with a bus service ;)

Even further and the buses don't go to Glyndebourne :-) (I suspect that
would be Lewes)

>
> But more seriously, there's some scope for employers to run a few
> shuttle-buses.

As I say, not relevant in this case.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/06/2022 10:03, Recliner wrote:
> Peter Brookes Times cartoon: June 18 2022
>
> <https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/88296480-ee73-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=4c299a9c25249f7a003a97c0eed74fd2>

Good one.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/06/2022 09:53, MB wrote:
> On 18/06/2022 09:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>> disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>> would even contemplate using the train even in normal times. It's a long
>> way from the nearest station with no bus service.
>
> Just did a quick search, a lot of people offering packages including
> travel by train with bus prebooked to take from the station.
>
> "Probably the most glamorous train journey you will ever make with most
> passengers dressed up for the concert".

The ones I came across are mostly for what are effectively 2 or 3 day
breaks with the Opera as the highlight but including visits to various
other attractions.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t8k4ut$65m$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:01 on Sat, 18 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 18/06/2022 09:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t8k1gu$egr$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:22 on Sat, 18 Jun
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bb
>>>>> b?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>>>>  The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate
>>>>with. “It’s
>>>> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
>>>> this week.
>>>>  …
>>>>  At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the
>>>>railway at a
>>>> time when passenger numbers have still not  recovered from the
>>>>pandemic. On
>>>> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
>>>> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they
>>>>will be
>>>> unlikely to creep up any further.
>>>
>>> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>>>disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>>>would even contemplate using the train even in normal times.

>> There's the staff too. Several hospitality vox-pop yesterday saying
>>that many of their workers couldn't afford a "plan B".
>
>Not relevant in this case, the workers (cast and crew) live on site for
>the season, a bit like fruit-pickers.

The crew includes the waiters, chefs, cleaners etc?

>>> It's a long way from the nearest station with no bus service.
>> How for from the nearest station with a bus service ;)
>
>Even further and the buses don't go to Glyndebourne :-) (I suspect that
>would be Lewes)
>
>> But more seriously, there's some scope for employers to run a few
>>shuttle-buses.
>
>As I say, not relevant in this case.

They aren't the only hospitality company potentially affected.

It's quite a long walk from Leeds station to Headingley, and perhaps
the Test Match organisers could run some special buses (even if not
on strike, which locally some are) the ordinary bus service isn't
brilliant.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t8k3pv$r96$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:20 on Sat, 18 Jun
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 18/06/2022 09:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>> disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>> would even contemplate using the train even in normal times. It's a long
>> way from the nearest station with no bus service.
>
>Just did a quick search, a lot of people offering packages including
>travel by train with bus prebooked to take from the station.
>
>"Probably the most glamorous train journey you will ever make with most
>passengers dressed up for the concert".

Will that corner-case railtour run during a strike period?
--
Roland Perry

On 18/06/2022 10:30, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t8k4ut$65m$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:13:01 on Sat, 18 Jun
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 18/06/2022 09:26, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t8k1gu$egr$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:14:22 on Sat, 18 Jun
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bb
>>>>>>
>>>>>> b?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>>>>>  The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with.
>>>>> “It’s
>>>>> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source
>>>>> said
>>>>> this week.
>>>>>  …
>>>>>  At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the
>>>>> railway  at a
>>>>> time when passenger numbers have still not  recovered from the
>>>>> pandemic. On
>>>>> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
>>>>> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they
>>>>> will be
>>>>> unlikely to creep up any further.
>>>>
>>>> Rather amused that Glyndebourne is on the list of events liable to
>>>> disruption. I sincerely doubt that een as much as 1% of the audience
>>>> would even contemplate using the train even in normal times.
>
>>>  There's the staff too. Several hospitality vox-pop yesterday saying
>>> that  many of their workers couldn't afford a "plan B".
>>
>> Not relevant in this case, the workers (cast and crew) live on site
>> for the season, a bit like fruit-pickers.
>
> The crew includes the waiters, chefs, cleaners etc?

The cleaners come (or at last came) from the local villages, as do,
probably, the waiters. Chefs and others will be down for the season.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 18 Jun 2022 06:07:22 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Now, here’s a question: many people join a union for the representation it
>gives you if you are accused of doing something wrong by your employer.
>Then by virtue of that union membership you are practically obliged (at
>least in the case of the railways) to come out on strike if a majority vote
>for it. Is there a case for having one organisation for representation and
>another for mass action? Why do both functions need to be done by one
>union?

There are two main benefits to union membership. One is having someone on your
side who will advise, guide and represent you if you are ever involved in an HR
dispute with your employer. The other is effectively outsourcing your salary and
contract negotiations to a collective bargaining agreement where skilled
negotiators will negotiate on your behalf with your employer.

The first of these obviously doesn't require any commitment by the employee to
going on strike, or any form of industrial (in)action, since at an individual HR
dispute level there is nothing to gain from it (and potentially a lot to lose).
But collective bargaining does rely, to some extent, on the membership being
willing to back their negotiatiors with the leverage they need to extract
concessions from the employers. Even if strikes are used rarely, the fact that
they are a weapon in the negotiators' locker makes it easier to obtain a
favourable outcome.

Mark

On Sat, 18 Jun 2022 09:03:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Peter Brookes Times cartoon: June 18 2022
>
><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/88296480-ee73-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab3?shareToken=4c299a9c25249f7a003a97c0eed74fd2>

It's amusing to see that, to a cartoonist, the stock representation of a train
is an HST. Despite the fact that very few workers of the type depicted in the
cartoon are likely to be travelling to work on one.

Mark

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Now, here’s a question: many people join a union for the representation it
> gives you if you are accused of doing something wrong by your employer.
> Then by virtue of that union membership you are practically obliged (at
> least in the case of the railways) to come out on strike if a majority vote
> for it. Is there a case for having one organisation for representation and
> another for mass action? Why do both functions need to be done by one
> union?

Surely those are two sides of the same coin? Unions exist to empower
employees. The employer already has substantial corporate power, and the
union aims to counterbalance that.

That means that if you're accused of something, it's you v Megacorp. The
union being on your side means that's a bit less imbalanced (Megacorp have
good lawyers, you don't have any lawyers at all). When in pay negotiations,
if individual employees did their own negotiation Megacorp would have the
upper hand since they are much more powerful than the individual. Hence the
union represents employees collectively, strengthening the position of
employees. It also simplifies negotiations for the employer, since N,000
separate pay deals isn't really practical.

In a strike situation it's similar: if negotiations have broken down to the
point of a strike, the employees are in a more powerful position if everyone
does it. If only three employees were to strike Megacorp wouldn't care.

If you don't want to take part in collective negotiations etc, you can
presumably hire your own lawyer (or have an insurance policy that will) in
case you need representation in a dispute. You would get no representation
in pay negotiation, of course.

Putting it another way, the late Bob Crow said he was in it for his members.
And actually he was pretty good at delivering for them. Which is not to say
he was a popular man or his tactics were appreciated. But there was a
rational reason why people joined his union: after all the bluster he did
achieve better pay and conditions, which is not something to be said for
other non-unionised industries.

Also, it should be noted that unions are democracies. If the leadership is
taking the union in a direction the membership aren't happy with, the
membership can kick them out. Hence Mr Crow and his colleagues were only in
that position because the members voted for them to be there, and thus
represent (for better or worse) the views of members.

Theo

On 18/06/2022 11:27, Mark Goodge wrote:
> There are two main benefits to union membership.

I was told of one large American company that was not unionised, they
took over another company that was heavily unionised. American employers
are not allowed to influence employees about whether they should be
union members. So they flew all the staff from this company to one of
their plants and just left them to talk to the existing staff there.
None joined the union after that.

On 18/06/2022 10:27, Roland Perry wrote:
> Will that corner-case railtour run during a strike period?

Possibly not which will probably mean that next time they will not
bother considering using rail and hire buses.

On 18/06/2022 10:21, Graeme Wall wrote:
> The ones I came across are mostly for what are effectively 2 or 3 day
> breaks with the Opera as the highlight but including visits to various
> other attractions.

There are certainly plenty offering rail from London linked to a bus at
Glyndebourne then same for the return in the evening. Probably move to
bus with hotel near Glyndebourne in the future.

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Now, here’s a question: many people join a union for the representation it
>> gives you if you are accused of doing something wrong by your employer.
>> Then by virtue of that union membership you are practically obliged (at
>> least in the case of the railways) to come out on strike if a majority vote
>> for it. Is there a case for having one organisation for representation and
>> another for mass action? Why do both functions need to be done by one
>> union?
>
> Surely those are two sides of the same coin? Unions exist to empower
> employees. The employer already has substantial corporate power, and the
> union aims to counterbalance that.
>
> That means that if you're accused of something, it's you v Megacorp. The
> union being on your side means that's a bit less imbalanced (Megacorp have
> good lawyers, you don't have any lawyers at all). When in pay negotiations,
> if individual employees did their own negotiation Megacorp would have the
> upper hand since they are much more powerful than the individual. Hence the
> union represents employees collectively, strengthening the position of
> employees. It also simplifies negotiations for the employer, since N,000
> separate pay deals isn't really practical.
>
> In a strike situation it's similar: if negotiations have broken down to the
> point of a strike, the employees are in a more powerful position if everyone
> does it. If only three employees were to strike Megacorp wouldn't care.
>
> If you don't want to take part in collective negotiations etc, you can
> presumably hire your own lawyer (or have an insurance policy that will) in
> case you need representation in a dispute. You would get no representation
> in pay negotiation, of course.
>
> Putting it another way, the late Bob Crow said he was in it for his members.
> And actually he was pretty good at delivering for them. Which is not to say
> he was a popular man or his tactics were appreciated. But there was a
> rational reason why people joined his union: after all the bluster he did
> achieve better pay and conditions, which is not something to be said for
> other non-unionised industries.
>
> Also, it should be noted that unions are democracies. If the leadership is
> taking the union in a direction the membership aren't happy with, the
> membership can kick them out. Hence Mr Crow and his colleagues were only in
> that position because the members voted for them to be there, and thus
> represent (for better or worse) the views of members.
>
> Theo
>

No the problem is you can’t hire your own lawyer in the early stages of a
disciplinary. You are allowed to bring in a colleague or a trade union
representative. This has been tested all the way up to the Supreme Court.
I’d be much happier bringing in a lawyer skilled in this area than relying
on the union rep. So I’m a union member only because I want the ability to
call on their help in the, remote, chance that I end up being accused of
doing something wrong by my employer. You only get to involve lawyers when
things get to the employment tribunal stage. By then it’s often too late.

On 18/06/2022 02:45, Recliner wrote:
>> https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/272c1bd4-ee80-11ec-b47a-cf598c451bbb?shareToken=7759b37c7a322820bced6d848da3929a>
>
> The union leaders are not the easiest of people to negotiate with. “It’s
> like dealing with people stuck in the 1980s,” a senior rail source said
> this week.
>
> …
>
> At the heart of the issue is the growing cost of running the railway at a
> time when passenger numbers have still not recovered from the pandemic. On
> weekdays they have stabilised at about 75 per cent of pre-coronavirus
> levels with rail bosses believing that working from home means they will be
> unlikely to creep up any further.
>

I think it's going to be a repeat of the mid 1980's where a Tory
government broke the NUM. This time the Tory government will break the
RMT, which probably won’t be a bad thing, if a more moderate rail union
is formed afterwards. The train drivers should think themselves lucky
on pay, when they earn 64% more than the average wage and now they want
an 11 percent rise, to say the train drivers are being greedy is an
understatement. Over the past ten years train drivers pay has risen, by
almost half, from £42,482 in 2011 to £59,198 last year. That's 20 times
the increase the average worker has seen over that time.

On 18/06/2022 12:02, Weather or Not wrote:
> I think it's going to be a repeat of the mid 1980's where a Tory
> government broke the NUM. This time the Tory government will break the
> RMT, which probably won’t be a bad thing, if a more moderate rail union
> is formed afterwards. The train drivers should think themselves lucky
> on pay, when they earn 64% more than the average wage and now they want
> an 11 percent rise, to say the train drivers are being greedy is an
> understatement. Over the past ten years train drivers pay has risen, by
> almost half, from £42,482 in 2011 to £59,198 last year. That's 20 times
> the increase the average worker has seen over that time.

Previously the commuters were their target but Work From Home has shown
that people can avoid commuting, and as with the thread on Glyndebourne
there are plenty of coach companies who could take on the business.

Just depends a bit on there being hotels not full of illegal immigrants
brought by the RNLI free ferry service.

In message <e9arahp4sl9pmneuhmco7lgisipaivh832@4ax.com>, at 11:31:27 on
Sat, 18 Jun 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Sat, 18 Jun 2022 09:03:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Peter Brookes Times cartoon: June 18 2022
>>
>><https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/88296480-ee73-11ec-8821-d2e916a7eab
>>3?shareToken=4c299a9c25249f7a003a97c0eed74fd2>
>
>It's amusing to see that, to a cartoonist, the stock representation of a train
>is an HST. Despite the fact that very few workers of the type depicted in the
>cartoon are likely to be travelling to work on one.

Metaphors are more powerful (for example few nurses wear a hat with a
Red Cross embroidered on it).
--
Roland Perry

On 18/06/2022 11:52, MB wrote:
> On 18/06/2022 11:27, Mark Goodge wrote:
>> There are two main benefits to union membership.
>
> I was told of one large American company that was not unionised, they
> took over another company that was heavily unionised. American employers
> are not allowed to influence employees about whether they should be
> union members.  So they flew all the staff from this company to one of
> their plants and just left them to talk to the existing staff there.
> None joined the union after that.
>
>

Which company was that? That particular urban myth has been around for a
long time, I believe it predates the internet.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 18/06/2022 11:56, MB wrote:
> On 18/06/2022 10:21, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> The ones I came across are mostly for what are effectively 2 or 3 day
>> breaks with the Opera as the highlight but including visits to various
>> other attractions.
>
> There are certainly plenty offering rail from London linked to a bus at
> Glyndebourne then same for the return in the evening.  Probably move to
> bus with hotel near Glyndebourne in the future.
>

Or even luxury coach both ways. Hotels are a problem, the ones nearest
are booked up long in advance usually and it puts the cost up substantially.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.