Last week I used the Elizabeth line again, this time just to go from Farringdon to Tottenham Court Road to change to the Central line. I was surprised at the number of instances of very poor design throughout this short journey.

Farringdon is surely an important interchange as it connects the principal cross-London North-South routes (Thameslink) and East-West (Crossrail). But the interchange from southbound Thameslink is awful - you have to go up a flight of 36 steps before you can get to the Elizabeth Line escalators. If changing from the Circle/Met/H&C it is worse as the most obvious route requires you to go through the tube exit gates, cross a public road, and enter the Thameslink entrance gates, then down the escalators. There is a route which avoids the two gatelines but it's not obvious. But all the interchanges are long, and it seems to me rather longer than they needed to be.

At Farringdon Elizabeth Line station the signage is poor: at one point it tells you to go straight on for westbound trains when by looking down the passageway to the right you can see a much shorter route to the platform.

The new Elizabeth Line trains have extremely hard and uncomfortable seats - if you sit down expecting something as well padded as on most tube or sub-surface lines you are in for a unpleasant experience. I can't imagine why they have done this, given that some trains will be used for journeys of up to half-an-hour making them so uncomfortable is certainly going to put people off.

There are also poor internal displays in the carriages: only the next station is shown, while on many trains and even quite a few bus routes I see the next 3 stations shown (which is useful in case on of them [e.g. Bond Street] is temporarily closed).

No announcements of whether the doors will open on the left or right-hand side: I thought this was common on many other new tube/subsurface lines, so why not here? It must be trivial to do.

The connections at Tottenham Court Road to the tube lines is awful: one has to go up to the ticket-office level, out through one gate-line, then sharp left, and go through the tube gate-line, and down escalators again to what must be nearly the same depth below ground. Did nobody consider how much easier it would be for passengers to have an underground link between the stations? Is Bond Street going to be as bad?

Despite having years to do this, TfL don't seem to have told other railway operators about the Elizabeth line, or at least not checked that they have taken any notice of it. On arriving at Farringdon on a Thameslink train it tells you all about the connections with Circle, Met, and H&C, but no mention of the Elizabeth Line. Is it the same at Liverpool Street and other stations where NR and Eliz Line connect I wonder?

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> Last week I used the Elizabeth line again, this time just to go from
> Farringdon to Tottenham Court Road to change to the Central line. I was
> surprised at the number of instances of very poor design throughout this short journey.
>
> Farringdon is surely an important interchange as it connects the
> principal cross-London North-South routes (Thameslink) and East-West
> (Crossrail). But the interchange from southbound Thameslink is awful -
> you have to go up a flight of 36 steps before you can get to the Elizabeth Line escalators.

Or just take lift C:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

> If changing from the Circle/Met/H&C it is worse as the most obvious route
> requires you to go through the tube exit gates, cross a public road, and
> enter the Thameslink entrance gates, then down the escalators. There is
> a route which avoids the two gatelines but it's not obvious. But all the
> interchanges are long, and it seems to me rather longer than they needed to be.

Yes, I think a more direct connection between the southbound SSL platform
and the EL should have been provided.

>
> At Farringdon Elizabeth Line station the signage is poor: at one point it
> tells you to go straight on for westbound trains when by looking down the
> passageway to the right you can see a much shorter route to the platform.

That's done in many stations, to try and segregate pedestrian traffic flows
in each direction.

>
> The new Elizabeth Line trains have extremely hard and uncomfortable seats
> - if you sit down expecting something as well padded as on most tube or
> sub-surface lines you are in for a unpleasant experience.

Yes, but they're better than the Victoria line from the same era.
Incidentally, the 345s aren't all that new: they entered service five years
ago tomorrow. Sadly, most trains from that period have similar, rock-hard
seats. It's a pity they didn't use the much better S-stock seats.

> I can't imagine why they have done this, given that some trains will be
> used for journeys of up to half-an-hour making them so uncomfortable is
> certainly going to put people off.

Much longer than that, surely?

>
> There are also poor internal displays in the carriages: only the next
> station is shown, while on many trains and even quite a few bus routes I
> see the next 3 stations shown (which is useful in case on of them [e.g.
> Bond Street] is temporarily closed).

From memory, it cycles to other, more useful displays?

>
> No announcements of whether the doors will open on the left or right-hand
> side: I thought this was common on many other new tube/subsurface lines,
> so why not here? It must be trivial to do.

Yes, that's an odd omission. Some other trains from the same factory do it.

>
> The connections at Tottenham Court Road to the tube lines is awful: one
> has to go up to the ticket-office level, out through one gate-line, then
> sharp left, and go through the tube gate-line, and down escalators again
> to what must be nearly the same depth below ground.

Is there no route that bypasses the gate line? I must try it.

> Did nobody consider how much easier it would be for passengers to have an
> underground link between the stations?

Note that a direct, deep corridor connection would probably involve a much
longer walk, as in Moorgate (Northern Line) and Paddington (Bakerloo). For
example, Green Park does have deep passageways between the lines, but
taking the Piccadilly line escalators to ticket office level to change to
the Victory or Jubilee lines is much shorter and quicker.

> Is Bond Street going to be as bad?

I don't know for sure, but I think there is an underground (mezzanine
level) passage linking the two stations.
>
> Despite having years to do this, TfL don't seem to have told other
> railway operators about the Elizabeth line, or at least not checked that
> they have taken any notice of it. On arriving at Farringdon on a
> Thameslink train it tells you all about the connections with Circle, Met,
> and H&C, but no mention of the Elizabeth Line. Is it the same at
> Liverpool Street and other stations where NR and Eliz Line connect I wonder?

I don't doubt that the NR TOCs know about the EL, but TfL can't make them
mention it promptly.

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:

>
> The connections at Tottenham Court Road to the tube lines is awful: one
> has to go up to the ticket-office level, out through one gate-line, then
> sharp left, and go through the tube gate-line, and down escalators again
> to what must be nearly the same depth below ground. Did nobody consider
> how much easier it would be for passengers to have an underground link
> between the stations? Is Bond Street going to be as bad?
>

I changed from EL to the Northern line at Tottenham Court Road. It was
trivially easy and I didn’t go up to the surface nor pass through a gate
line.

I didn’t really have much of a problem transferring from a southbound TL
service to EL at Farringdon either. A bit of a walk, but I suspect that is
dictated by the layout of the existing railways.

On 21/06/2022 20:08, Tweed wrote:
> I changed from EL to the Northern line at Tottenham Court Road. It was
> trivially easy and I didn’t go up to the surface nor pass through a gate
> line.

Maybe I missed something? I followed the signposted route from EL to the Central Line. I realised some years ago that following the signposted route anywhere on the railways system is usually going to lead to a longer route than necessary, but in a brand new station where I didn't know my way around, that was what I did. I'll try harder next time.

> I didn’t really have much of a problem transferring from a southbound TL
> service to EL at Farringdon either. A bit of a walk, but I suspect that is
> dictated by the layout of the existing railways.

What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 21/06/2022 20:08, Tweed wrote:
>> I changed from EL to the Northern line at Tottenham Court Road. It was
>> trivially easy and I didn’t go up to the surface nor pass through a gate
>> line.
>
> Maybe I missed something? I followed the signposted route from EL to
> the Central Line. I realised some years ago that following the
> signposted route anywhere on the railways system is usually going to lead
> to a longer route than necessary, but in a brand new station where I
> didn't know my way around, that was what I did. I'll try harder next time.

Looking at the 3D station map, it's much more likely that there's a short
lower level EL-NL link, as the two lines cross. A direct EL-CL link is more
difficult, as the lines run roughly parallel, some distance apart.
Escalators via the subsurface ticket hall level make more sense (quicker,
less walking), as with Green Park. The only question is whether you can do
it within the gated zone, as in Green Park. I'll check it out when I get a
chance.

>
>> I didn’t really have much of a problem transferring from a southbound TL
>> service to EL at Farringdon either. A bit of a walk, but I suspect that is
>> dictated by the layout of the existing railways.
>
> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.

Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that the
former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
way.

But it's not that difficult to take the ~30 steps or lift up to the
surface, cross the street, then take the escalators down to the EL. At
least it ensures that your contactless journey is terminated properly as
you pass through both gatelines!

"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>
>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>
> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
> the
> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
> way.
>
AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
level or you take the short staircase up, cross over the TL lines and then
it's escalators down to the concourse level that serves the northbound TL
platform. It's not ideal but it's hard to see how it could been done any
other way given the constraints of the site.

--
DAS

D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>
>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>> the
>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>> way.
>>
> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
> level

No, just one lift, Lift C:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

> or you take the short staircase up, cross over the TL lines

So, one staircase up, and another down to the other platform, unless you
use the southernmost stairs to the new EL/TL station ticket hall. If
further north, it's easier to cross the street and take the escalators all
the way down.

> and then it's escalators down to the concourse level that serves the northbound TL
> platform.

You have to get to the TL/EL ticket office to go down all the way by
escalators.

> It's not ideal but it's hard to see how it could been done any
> other way given the constraints of the site.

I think it would only have been possible by encroaching on to the old CWL
trackbed towards Barbican, now taken over by LU.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>
>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>>> the
>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>>> way.
>>>
>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>> level
>
> No, just one lift, Lift C:
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the capacity.

Lew

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>>>> the
>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>>> level
>>
>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>
> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the capacity.
>

In one lift shaft (C)?

On Tue, 21 Jun 2022 15:37:50 +0100, Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:

>Last week I used the Elizabeth line again, this time just to go from Farringdon to Tottenham Court Road to change to the Central line. I was surprised at the number of instances of very poor design throughout this short journey.

OK, I've done an on-site inspection, and can fact check your comments:

>
>Farringdon is surely an important interchange as it connects the principal cross-London North-South routes (Thameslink) and East-West (Crossrail). But the interchange from southbound Thameslink is awful - you have to go up a flight of 36 steps before you can get to the Elizabeth Line escalators. If changing from the Circle/Met/H&C it is worse as the most obvious route requires you to go through the tube exit gates, cross a public road, and enter the Thameslink entrance gates, then down the escalators. There is a route which avoids the two gatelines but it's not obvious. But all the interchanges are long, and it seems to me rather longer than they needed to be.

I think the route via the two gatelines is actually easier, and requires fewer steps than via the northbound TL
platform. It also ensures that the TfL journey registers.

>
>At Farringdon Elizabeth Line station the signage is poor: at one point it tells you to go straight on for westbound trains when by looking down the passageway to the right you can see a much shorter route to the platform.

As previously mentioned, this is standard practice at many busy stations, in an attempt to segregate arriving and
departing pax.

>
>The new Elizabeth Line trains have extremely hard and uncomfortable seats - if you sit down expecting something as well padded as on most tube or sub-surface lines you are in for a unpleasant experience. I can't imagine why they have done this, given that some trains will be used for journeys of up to half-an-hour making them so uncomfortable is certainly going to put people off.

The seats are certainly too hard, but I don't think it'll put people off.

>
>There are also poor internal displays in the carriages: only the next station is shown, while on many trains and even quite a few bus routes I see the next 3 stations shown (which is useful in case on of them [e.g. Bond Street] is temporarily closed).

Not true. The trains have an excellent display showing the next three stations, the final destination, and their
connections. This was taken on a train from Paddington:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52165606270/>

However, what does seem to be missing is any information on disruption on other lines, as Thameslink provides.

>
>No announcements of whether the doors will open on the left or right-hand side: I thought this was common on many other new tube/subsurface lines, so why not here? It must be trivial to do.

It seems to be going out of fashion. The S stock trains also don't have it, whereas the Jubilee and Victoria lines do. I
wonder if other Aventras have it?

>
>The connections at Tottenham Court Road to the tube lines is awful: one has to go up to the ticket-office level, out through one gate-line, then sharp left, and go through the tube gate-line, and down escalators again to what must be nearly the same depth below ground. Did nobody consider how much easier it would be for passengers to have an underground link between the stations? Is Bond Street going to be as bad?

As already mentioned by Tweed, there is a short, well signposted link to the Northern Line. It involves one staircase,
and there's a lift.

As for the Central Line, yes, the signposted route is as you describe. I think that's a much easier route, with less
walking, than a direct low level connection would be. And, curiously, there actually is such a connection, which is
sensibly not signposted. If you take the route to the Northern Line, there's then a low level route to the Central Line.
I took it, but it's a bit of a hike, and I don't recommend it. The signposted route is much better.

My journey this morning from Harrow-on-the-Hill and back didn't involve crossing *any* gate lines other than at the
start and end, and went:
Met to Finchley Road
Jubilee to Baker St
Bakerloo to Paddington
EL to Tottenham Court Road
Central to Liverpool Street (a much slower journey than it would have been on the EL!)
Walk through the EL station at platform level to the Moorgate end
Met to Harrow.

Some pics at TCR:
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720299998834>
and at Liverpool St/Moorgate
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72177720299992796>

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>>>>> the
>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>>>>> way.
>>>>>
>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>>>> level
>>>
>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>
>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the capacity.
>>
>
> In one lift shaft (C)?

I guess so.

Lew

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>
>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>>>>> level
>>>>
>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>
>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the capacity.
>>>
>>
>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>
> I guess so.

How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant for
>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to be
>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was in the
>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>>>>>> level
>>>>>
>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>
>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the capacity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>
>> I guess so.
>
> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).

Sorry, I meant TL southbound.

"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was
>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>> platform
>>>>>> level
>>>>>
>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>
>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>> capacity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>
>> I guess so.
>
> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>
I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly two
lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the platform.

--
DAS

D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was
>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>>
>>> I guess so.
>>
>> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
>> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
>> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>>
> I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly two
> lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
> there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the platform.
>

How is it represented in the station lift map?
<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

"Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:t908os$3ib$2@dont-email.me...
>D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings,
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>>>
>>>> I guess so.
>>>
>>> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the
>>> lift
>>> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
>>> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>>>
>> I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly
>> two
>> lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
>> there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the
>> platform.
>>
>
> How is it represented in the station lift map?
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>

Dunno.
The bottom two pictures here are what is on the TL southbound platform:
http://www.ilpb.co.uk/Case-Study-Farringdon-Station.aspx

In message <t8ufdl$3j4$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:12:53 on Wed, 22 Jun
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>
>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>for people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought
>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>that the former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU
>>>sidings, was in the way.
>>>
>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL platform
>> level
>
>No, just one lift, Lift C:
><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

I've given up trying to follow the earlier threads about the "secret
lift", because there was so much contradictory information. Awaiting a
road trip, which has now been scuppered because of the rail strikes.

Does this now confirm the lift goes directly from the Elizabeth Line
platform level, to the surface, and not via an intermediate/mezzanine
level?

Which, if any, of lifts A, B & D is the sloping one?
--
Roland Perry

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was
>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>>>
>>>> I guess so.
>>>
>>> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
>>> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
>>> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>>>
>> I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly two
>> lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
>> there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the platform.
>>
>
> How is it represented in the station lift map?
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-72177720299244348/>

In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the lift
map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?

Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
the EL level has been locked out until now.

Lew

In message <1431899955.677661580.098329.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
at 07:25:27 on Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was
>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-7217
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess so.
>>>>
>>>> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
>>>> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
>>>> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>>>>
>>> I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly two
>>> lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
>>> there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the platform.
>>>
>>
>> How is it represented in the station lift map?
>>
>><https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-7217772029
>>9244348/>
>
>In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the lift
>map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>
>Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
>for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
>as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
>the EL level has been locked out until now.

Now I'm seeing even more contradictory information. Is lift "C" the
secret one, or not. If it is, it reaches the surface by just one door in
a small and somewhat neglected lobby off the Thameslink platform.
--
Roland Perry

On 23/06/2022 09:35, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1431899955.677661580.098329.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 07:25:27 on Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the
>> lift
>> map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>>
>> Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
>> for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
>> as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
>> the EL level has been locked out until now.
>
> Now I'm seeing even more contradictory information. Is lift "C" the
> secret one, or not. If it is, it reaches the surface by just one door in
> a small and somewhat neglected lobby off the Thameslink platform.

Lift G, according to the notice inside
<https://anonw.com/2022/06/10/the-barbican-entrance-to-the-elizabeth-line-10th-june-2022/dscn0131-23/>

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <1431899955.677661580.098329.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>,
> at 07:25:27 on Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:t905ap$4vs$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> D A Stocks <nospam@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Recliner" <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:t8tguj$46s$2@dont-email.me...
>>>>>>>>>>> Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What I thought was bad was the lack of escalators from southbound
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thameslink. There is a lift, but for mass movement of passengers a
>>>>>>>>>>>> single lift is slow and of very limited capacity.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's not intended for or capable of moving crowds. It's meant
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> people who can't manage stairs. I agree that there really ought to
>>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>>> either an escalator connection, or at least two lifts. My guess is
>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> former CWL trackbed to Barbican, now to be used for LU sidings, was
>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>> way.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AIUI the choice it's *two* lifts directly from TL southbound to EL
>>>>>>>>>> platform
>>>>>>>>>> level
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, just one lift, Lift C:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-7217
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, there are two lifts (I.e. a pair of cabins) doubling up the
>>>>>>>> capacity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In one lift shaft (C)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess so.
>>>>>
>>>>> How would that work? There's no indication of any such thing in the lift
>>>>> itself, which I've used. It's a straightforward vertical lift with three
>>>>> levels (surface, TL northbound platform, EL platforms).
>>>>>
>>>> I think it's one lift on the TL northbound platform. There are clearly two
>>>> lifts on TL southbound platform - I haven't used them yet but they are
>>>> there, side by side, near the staircase at the southern end of the platform.
>>>>
>>>
>>> How is it represented in the station lift map?
>>>
>>> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52154966938/in/album-7217772029
>>> 9244348/>
>>
>> In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the lift
>> map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>>
>> Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
>> for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
>> as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
>> the EL level has been locked out until now.
>
> Now I'm seeing even more contradictory information. Is lift "C" the
> secret one, or not. If it is, it reaches the surface by just one door in
> a small and somewhat neglected lobby off the Thameslink platform.

Eh?

We’re not talking about the secret lift at all - we are talking about the
lifts at *Farringdon* LU/TL station. ‘Lift C’ connects Farringdon ticket
hall with TL Southbound and EL platforms. (But is actually two lifts side
by side though that is not shown on the diagram). They have been in use for
years but have only now been enabled to call at the lower levels for EL.
They open up directly onto the TL Southbound platform.

The ‘secret lift’ is at *Barbican* LU station, the other end of the EL
station and is not shown on the diagram that Recliner posted.

Lew

On 23/06/2022 08:25, Lew 1 wrote:
> In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the lift
> map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>
> Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
> for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
> as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
> the EL level has been locked out until now.

I certainly had not realised that the lift(s) on the Southbound TL platform would take us directly the EL platforms - would have used them if I had known and I didn't see any signposting to that effect. As it was there is indeed a what someone described as a short (36 steps) staircase up then two sets of escalators down.

I normally use lifts only if carrying heavy luggage, otherwise leave them to those whose need is greater than mine. But next time I have to do this change...

--
Clive Page

On 22/06/2022 14:58, Recliner wrote:
> Not true. The trains have an excellent display showing the next three stations, the final destination, and their
> connections. This was taken on a train from Paddington:
> <https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/52165606270/>

I'm glad that some trains have that, but clearly not all of them do. I've only taken two EL trains but neither had a display anything like that - just a plain dot-matrix display showing the name of the next station stop.

--
Clive Page

Clive Page <usenet@page2.eu> wrote:
> On 23/06/2022 08:25, Lew 1 wrote:
>> In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on the lift
>> map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>>
>> Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
>> for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
>> as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
>> the EL level has been locked out until now.
>
> I certainly had not realised that the lift(s) on the Southbound TL
> platform would take us directly the EL platforms - would have used them
> if I had known and I didn't see any signposting to that effect. As it
> was there is indeed a what someone described as a short (36 steps)
> staircase up then two sets of escalators down.
>
> I normally use lifts only if carrying heavy luggage, otherwise leave them
> to those whose need is greater than mine. But next time I have to do this change...

I certainly agree that the lifts are by far the best way to transfer from
TL Southbound to EL. I guess it’s not signposted because if everyone tried
to do that you’d end up with a nightmare.

It’ll become one of those ‘insider knowledge’ things, like changing between
lines at Green Park via the ticket hall, and ignoring the direction signs
at KXSP.

Lew

In message <t919ls$che$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:53:15 on Thu, 23 Jun
2022, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 23/06/2022 09:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message
>><1431899955.677661580.098329.email-nowhere.com@web.aioe.org>, at
>>07:25:27 on Thu, 23 Jun 2022, Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> remarked:
>>> In effect , lift C is doubled up - I guess that isn’t specified on
>>>the lift
>>> map because, well, what difference would it make to anyone?
>>>
>>> Incidentally, there’s nothing new about these - lift(s) C have been open
>>> for years (since Farringdon reopened as part of the Thameslink programme)
>>> as they have provided the step free route from Thameslink to street - but
>>> the EL level has been locked out until now.

>> Now I'm seeing even more contradictory information. Is lift "C" the
>>secret one, or not. If it is, it reaches the surface by just one door
>>in a small and somewhat neglected lobby off the Thameslink platform.
>
>Lift G, according to the notice inside
><https://anonw.com/2022/06/10/the-barbican-entrance-to-the-elizabeth-lin
>e-10th-june-2022/dscn0131-23/>

OK, so now what would help is if the various photo-bloogers annotated
their output with lift-numbers.
--
Roland Perry