On 18/03/2022 11:43, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:39, NY wrote:
>> "John Hall" <john_nospam@jhall.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:c3$k8yC8pFNiFwrm@jhall_nospamxx.co.uk...
>>> In message <dbg83hl6paict9ubbtmrb2595vc7tarevh@4ax.com>, Roderick
>>> Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> writes

>>>> They should change the default channel numbers so that the HD
>>>> versions are numbers 1, 2, 3 etc instead of 101, 102, 103 etc. Some
>>>> people seem to be daunted by the extra typing, despite the superior
>>>> picture quality just for entering two extra digits.
>>
>> It's a shame that they don't use LCNs of 100+SD for all HD channels: I
>> always have to remember what BBC Four and BBC News are, because they
>> are not 109 and 331. I tend to go to 105 (Channel 5 HD) and increment
>> from there ;-)
>
> The whole LCN numbering scheme is a mess, and if you didn't know better
> seems to be deliberately designed so you that don't ever stumble across
> the HD channels

Maybe brown envelopes are involved somehow.

--
Max Demian

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9jkoeF15dfU2@mid.individual.net...
>> Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7.
>
> Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count the
> modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30 large relays
> from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't carry COM 7 !

Ah, I'm lucky that the three transmitters I've received from in various
houses, Oxford, Bilsdale and Belmont, all carry it, and I extrapolated that
to all main transmitters. But come to think of it, transmitters like
Oliver's Mount (Scarborough) carry PSB1-3 and COM4-6 but not COM7. I tended
to think that there were only two categories: all-7 and just-PSBs, but
there's the third with 6 muxes.

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9jl77F19fbU1@mid.individual.net...

> Out of interest, were any subtitles reliably available if playing back a
> tape from an 'ordinary' VHS ?

I didn't do that very often, because I normally only played what I'd
recorded. When I did get loaned tapes (assuming they were from ordinary VHS)
I'm not sure whether I tried.

On 18/03/2022 17:23, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:j9jkoeF15dfU2@mid.individual.net...
>>> Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7.
>>
>> Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count
>> the modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30
>> large relays from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't
>> carry COM 7 !
>
> Ah, I'm lucky that the three transmitters I've received from in
> various houses, Oxford, Bilsdale and Belmont, all carry it, and I
> extrapolated that to all main transmitters. But come to think of it,
> transmitters like Oliver's Mount (Scarborough) carry PSB1-3 and COM4-6
> but not COM7. I tended to think that there were only two categories:
> all-7 and just-PSBs, but there's the third with 6 muxes.

All 7 muxes   25 sites (Used to be 30 but five were removed at 700 MHz
clearance)
Only 6  muxes   85(ish) sites (was 80, but a few were added at 700 MHz
clearance)
Only 3  muxes   1080 sites

1154 sites in total (so the above are subsets of each other )

On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfibF83bU1@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory
wrote:

>Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>
>That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as the
>channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or so of
>actual local material they show daily.

No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
robbed :-(

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfibF83bU1@mid.individual.net> Brian
> Gregory wrote:
>
>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>
>> That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as
>> the channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or
>> so of actual local material they show daily.
>
> No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
> robbed :-(
>
No, trust me, you haven't !

On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>
>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>
> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
> beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
> this thread

I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
his location.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 15/03/2022 16:36, Woody wrote:
> There is an oddity with some TV's particularly if using manual tune.
> That is that it will not find HD channels on a 'normal' scan and it is
> necessary to manually select DVB-T2 and it will then find PSB3 and Com7
> but still doesn't show the name of the mux!

I've never ever seen any Freeview receiver that knows the name of a
multiplex.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>
>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>
>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
>> beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
>> this thread
>
> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
> his location.>

He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W of
Hannington.

--

Jeff

On 18/03/2022 in message <j9k0hhF3dq2U1@mid.individual.net> Mark Carver
wrote:

>On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfibF83bU1@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory
>>wrote:
>>
>>>Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>
>>>That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as the
>>>channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or so of
>>>actual local material they show daily.
>>
>>No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
>>robbed :-(
>>
>No, trust me, you haven't !

:-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists
or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.

On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>> tapes had been available for rental.
>
> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the best
>
> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)

It was just the result of a decision by the leading rental group.

Bill

On 18/03/2022 12:05, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:53, Bob Latham wrote:
>> In article <59cb146d02charles@candehope.me.uk>,
>>     charles <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> V2000 would play back teletext signals recorded on the cassette.
>> Yes and as it happens so did super VHS.
>>
> I always found you could recover enough of the header row on even VHS
> and Betamax recordings to make out the date of the recording, although
> lots of gibberish of course

Yes agreed. It was sometimes useful.

Bill

On Fri 18/03/2022 17:23, NY wrote:
> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:j9jkoeF15dfU2@mid.individual.net...
>>> Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7.
>>
>> Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count the
>> modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30 large
>> relays from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't carry COM 7 !
>
> Ah, I'm lucky that the three transmitters I've received from in various
> houses, Oxford, Bilsdale and Belmont, all carry it, and I extrapolated
> that to all main transmitters. But come to think of it, transmitters
> like Oliver's Mount (Scarborough) carry PSB1-3 and COM4-6 but not COM7.
> I tended to think that there were only two categories: all-7 and
> just-PSBs, but there's the third with 6 muxes.

The big main station sites (the likes of CP and EM) with Com7 are known
as the 'enhanced' main stations.

At DSO and during 800 and 700 clearance a number of relay sites in major
population areas were upgraded to main station status. IMSMC Sheffield,
Chesterfield, Olivers Mount (Scarborough), Fenton (Stoke), Fenham
(Newcastle), the West Mids SFN, Nottingham, Storeton (Wirral) are a few
that spring to mind, but some of those, e.g. Sheffield, have also had
Com7 added.

On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> I've been robbed

In the sense of being deprived of a load of shite yes you have.

Bill

On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>> tapes had been available for rental.
>
> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the best
>
> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)

I never tried Betamax, but I did have a V2000 machine at the same time
as a VHS one. The V2000 quality was far better, but actually finding
blank V2000 tapes to record on was incredibly difficult.

Jim

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j9k0hhF3dq2U1@mid.individual.net...
> On 18/03/2022 18:06, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 in message <j9jfibF83bU1@mid.individual.net> Brian Gregory
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>
>>> That should be your local version of That's TV which is the same as the
>>> channel you want except for the pathetically tiny 10 minutes or so of
>>> actual local material they show daily.
>>
>> No, blank in the guide - jumps from 6 (ITV2) to 9 (BBC 4), I've been
>> robbed :-(
>>
> No, trust me, you haven't !

Quite the opposite. You have been spared the horrors of wall-to-wall crap.

I still have nightmares at the mind-blowing amateurishness of a very local
TV channel (SixTV) in Oxford which had studio programmes presented by people
who were more wooden than Pinocchio and who lurched through their autocue
script like a rabbit caught in the headlights. They had a knack for always
looking at the wrong camera. Exposure control and matching between cameras
was non-existent and so you went from a camera that showed a dim muddy
picture to one from a different angle that had overexposed peak-white
patches on people's foreheads and noses.

Mind you, it did have a very interesting nature programme "Wild" which was
recorded on location around the Oxford area and presented by a very
knowledgeable (and rather cute) biologist called Sasha Norris.

"Indy Jess John" <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
news:t12r2f$lrr$1@dont-email.me...
> On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>>> tapes had been available for rental.
>>
>> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the
>> best
>>
>> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
>> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)
>
> I never tried Betamax, but I did have a V2000 machine at the same time as
> a VHS one. The V2000 quality was far better, but actually finding blank
> V2000 tapes to record on was incredibly difficult.

I still find it incredible that a tape moving at a few inches in one
direction, with a head spinning in the opposite direction (at one revolution
per frame, I think, so opposite heads each record a field) can achieve
sufficient head-to-tape speed to record a video signal. If it wasn't for
that, we'd still be using gigantic reels of tape moving at about 1800
inches/second (106 mph - shiiiiiite) as they did with VERA.

Silly question. The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the tilt
angle of the head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the tape speed.
If the tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a path on the tape
which is slightly wrong because there's no forward motion of the tape, so it
mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do they get round that? Does the
head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so the head still follows the track?
At worst, still frame on VHS gave a *bit* of noise at the extreme top and
bottom, but still a pretty good result. I'll have to open up my old VHS
machine and see if I can see the drum shifting slightly when I pause the
tape. Only thing is (and this is a sign of how quickly technology becomes
obsolete) I'd have to find a TV that had analogue input (RF or SCART) - our
new one doesn't AFAIK.

On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:11:55 +0000, NY wrote:

> The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the tilt angle of the
> head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the tape speed. If the
> tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a path on the tape
> which is slightly wrong because there's no forward motion of the tape,
> so it mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do they get round that?
> Does the head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so the head still
> follows the track?

I don't know about domestic machines, but broadcast VTRs don't alter the
drum, the heads are mounted on piezo crystals which bend when a voltage is
applied across them, so a correction waveform is applied to make them
follow the track. I think I'm remembering correctly - it's 17 years since
I retired from VTR maintenance.

--
TOJ.

On Fri 18/03/2022 22:11, NY wrote:
> "Indy Jess John" <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote in message
> news:t12r2f$lrr$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 18/03/2022 11:27, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 11:07, NY wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how VHS compared with Betamax and Grundig V2000. I wonder
>>>> which format would have prevailed if all three types of machine and
>>>> tapes had been available for rental.
>>>
>>> Technical quality wise, generally in that order, with V2000 being the
>>> best
>>>
>>> Availability of 'software' was the exact inverse, and so, so was
>>> domestic penetration (At least in the UK)
>>
>> I never tried Betamax, but I did have a V2000 machine at the same time
>> as a VHS one.  The V2000 quality was far better, but actually finding
>> blank V2000 tapes to record on was incredibly difficult.
>
> I still find it incredible that a tape moving at a few inches in one
> direction, with a head spinning in the opposite direction (at one
> revolution per frame, I think, so opposite heads each record a field)
> can achieve sufficient head-to-tape speed to record a video signal. If
> it wasn't for that, we'd still be using gigantic reels of tape moving at
> about 1800 inches/second (106 mph - shiiiiiite) as they did with VERA.
>
> Silly question. The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the
> tilt angle of the head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the
> tape speed. If the tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a
> path on the tape which is slightly wrong because there's no forward
> motion of the tape, so it mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do
> they get round that? Does the head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so
> the head still follows the track? At worst, still frame on VHS gave a
> *bit* of noise at the extreme top and bottom, but still a pretty good
> result. I'll have to open up my old VHS machine and see if I can see the
> drum shifting slightly when I pause the tape. Only thing is (and this is
> a sign of how quickly technology becomes obsolete) I'd have to find a TV
> that had analogue input (RF or SCART) - our new one doesn't AFAIK.

The heads were seated upon crystal actuators so that the head could be
physically moved - probably only by microns but moved nonetheless. That
was one of if not the main beauty of the V2000 system (also used (and
invented?) by Philips) which allowed tracking to be dynamically adjusted
much more easily and far far more quickly than, say, by VHS.

On 18/03/2022 20:20, Woody wrote:
> On Fri 18/03/2022 17:23, NY wrote:
>> "Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:j9jkoeF15dfU2@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Hannington is a main transmitter so it will carry COM7.
>>>
>>> Lots of main transmitters don't carry COM 7, in fact (if you count
>>> the modern description of a main transmitter as including the 30
>>> large relays from analogue days ) MOST of the main stations don't
>>> carry COM 7 !
>>
>> Ah, I'm lucky that the three transmitters I've received from in
>> various houses, Oxford, Bilsdale and Belmont, all carry it, and I
>> extrapolated that to all main transmitters. But come to think of it,
>> transmitters like Oliver's Mount (Scarborough) carry PSB1-3 and
>> COM4-6 but not COM7. I tended to think that there were only two
>> categories: all-7 and just-PSBs, but there's the third with 6 muxes.
>
>
> The big main station sites (the likes of CP and EM) with Com7 are
> known as the 'enhanced' main stations.
>
> At DSO and during 800 and 700 clearance a number of relay sites in
> major population areas were upgraded to main station status. IMSMC
> Sheffield, Chesterfield, Olivers Mount (Scarborough), Fenton (Stoke),
> Fenham (Newcastle), the West Mids SFN, Nottingham, Storeton (Wirral)
> are a few that spring to mind, but some of those, e.g. Sheffield, have
> also had Com7 added.
>
Yes, the legacy big relays that had COM 7 (and 8) added were Fenham
(Newcastle) Fenton (Stoke on Trent) and Sheffield. Although Sheffield
lost COM 7 and 8 at 700 MHz clearance

On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>
>>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
>>> beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
>>> this thread
>>
>> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
>> his location.>
>
> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W of
> Hannington.
>

And I feel stupid.

You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 18/03/2022 22:45, The Other John wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 22:11:55 +0000, NY wrote:
>
>> The angle of the diagonal tracks is dependent on the tilt angle of the
>> head axis, the rotational speed of the head and the tape speed. If the
>> tape is stopped for still frame, the head traces a path on the tape
>> which is slightly wrong because there's no forward motion of the tape,
>> so it mis-tracks at the beginning and end. How do they get round that?
>> Does the head drum alter its tilt angle slightly so the head still
>> follows the track?
>
> I don't know about domestic machines, but broadcast VTRs don't alter the
> drum, the heads are mounted on piezo crystals which bend when a voltage is
> applied across them, so a correction waveform is applied to make them
> follow the track. I think I'm remembering correctly - it's 17 years since
> I retired from VTR maintenance.
>

I don't think domestic ones do anything about it.

From what I remember you pause and you get a nasty wide horizontal
noise bar though the picture at a random distance down the screen.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 19/03/2022 16:46, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>>
>>>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they are
>>>> beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts in
>>>> this thread
>>>
>>> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
>>> his location.>
>>
>> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W of
>> Hannington.
>>
>
> And I feel stupid.

Easy to miss the faint text in a sig.

> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.

I raised that in my reply to Mark on the 15th. Rowridge is not only
nearer but is 200kW compared to Hannington's 50kW.

--

Jeff

In article <j9mfo1FhvimU1@mid.individual.net>, Brian Gregory
<void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
> On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
> > On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
> >> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
> >>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
> >>>
> >>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they
> >>> are beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts
> >>> in this thread
> >>
> >> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
> >> his location.>
> >
> > He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W
> > of Hannington.
> >

> And I feel stupid.

> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.

Dorset is quite hilly

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 19/03/2022 17:05, charles wrote:
> In article <j9mfo1FhvimU1@mid.individual.net>, Brian Gregory
> <void-invalid-dead-dontuse@email.invalid> wrote:
>> On 18/03/2022 18:57, Jeff Layman wrote:
>>> On 18/03/2022 18:32, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>> On 18/03/2022 14:51, Mark Carver wrote:
>>>>> On 18/03/2022 13:25, Brian Gregory wrote:
>>>>>> Anything on channel 7 or 8?
>>>>> Not in that direction. Hannington carries two local muxes, but they
>>>>> are beamed eastwards (on very narrow beams) See one of my other posts
>>>>> in this thread
>>>> I didn't know we knew the direction. I must have missed where he gave
>>>> his location.>
>>> He didn't specifically. His sig says "Dorset", so effectively SW to W
>>> of Hannington.
>>>
>> And I feel stupid.
>> You'd think Rowridge would be nearer.
> Dorset is quite hilly
>
Dorset is a pot-pourri of different transmitter choices, and also
straddles three TV regions. (Handy for those slow local news days !)

In one valley it can be Rowridge, in another Mendip, in another
Stockland Hill. Same for the relay 'parents'.