On Mon, 4 Apr 2022 01:47:09 +0100
Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:

> On 03/04/2022 14:41, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> >
> > Yes but as most of the country does not normally live in another country,
> > then that could be a red herring.
>
> Yes, perfectly true, but there again, no! A claim was made that driving
> on the left of the road is safer than driving on the right, but no
> pertinent statistics were given to back up the claim, a claim which
> immediately sounded to me as being likely to be an attempt at
> rationalising our current situation with pseudo-science, and unlikely to
> be even true, let alone prove actual causation even supposing it is (it
> should be remembered that correlation is not causation).
>
> So, in the absence of any pertinent specific statistics being given to
> back up the claim, the first search term I tried yielded only
> information about countries with foreign driver problems, wrt which, I
> wasn't trying to claim that stats about drivers in countries foreign to
> them were meaningful stats about the safety of driving on a particular
> side of the road, rather I was pointing out that the fact that various
> countries, regardless of which side of the road they drive, seem to have
> a similar level of problem regarding foreign drivers driving on the
> wrong side of the road, rather suggests that no one country and no one
> side of driving was likely to prove significantly safer than another.
>
> And now trying a different search term has proved this deduction to be
> correct, for example here is a rather badly designed webpage, but it
> does have some recent stats from a 56 country research study undertaken
> by international driver education company Zutobi ...
>
> https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics-and-nation/the-worlds-safest-most-dangerous-countries-to-drive/safest-norway/slideshow/81589360.cms
>
> Most dangerous:
> 1 ​S Africa LHS
> 2 Thailand RHS
> 3 USA RHS
> 4 India LHS
>
> Safest:
> 1 Norway RHS
> 2 Japan LHS
> 3 Sweden RHS
>
> So, no obvious correlation between safety and driving side of road
> there, nor here:
>
> https://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/report/state_of_road_safety_en.pdf
>
> "WHO: The state of road safety around the world
>
> [...]
>
> Low-income and middle-income countries have the highest burden and road
> traffic death rates.
>
> Most (91%) of the world’s fatalities on the roads occur in low-income
> and middle-income countries, which have only 48% of the world’s
> registered vehicles."
>
> In short, just as I suspected all along, there are myriads of factors
> determining how safe a nation's roads are, many of which are given in
> the final link below - so many that I'm not going to attempt to
> provide a summarising quote, people need to read it for themselves -
> and whichever side of the road is driven is apparently so unimportant
> that it is not even mentioned there:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate
>
> --
>
> Fake news kills!
>
> I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
> www.macfh.co.uk

I was on a business trip to India about 30 years ago.
My customer allocated me a driver and a car.

He couldn't iunderstand English nor me screaming and hanging on for dear life as he drove from Delhi to Nagra and back ( 196 miles) at 100 mph. He did not slow down for poor people slowing ushering their sheep and goats across the road.

I didn't get a single photograph either there or back. With people like him on the road I am amazed the statistics are as low as they appear!

It did prepare me for Israeli drivers mind you.

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On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 09:10:14 +0100
"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

I would like to see the USA Highway Patrol series with Broderick Crawford again.
They were very 1940-50 ish but they had style.

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On 03/04/2022 22:58, Wilf wrote:
> On 03/04/2022 at 22:17, MB wrote:
>> On 03/04/2022 13:06, Wilf wrote:
>>> I also think about how a self driving car would deal with single track
>>> country roads with passing places.
>>
>> In the Western Isles they just drive down the middle of the road and
>> hope they do not meet anyone, I heard of one driver who left his lights
>> off when drunk so the police would not see him.
>>
>
> Sounds like a dubious strategy!
>

On narrow single track roads it's often advantage driving at night with
lights on. You see the approaching cars lights illuminating the blind
bends long before you encounter the car.

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On 03/04/2022 22:10, MB wrote:
> On 03/04/2022 13:26, Jeff Layman wrote:
>> Indeed, and perhaps dense fog could be included. But whereas many humans
>> pay no attention to the fact they can't see anything and continue
>> driving at the same speed, a car programmed correctly will slow down as
>> its visual clues (I'm not sure if IR "sees" better through snow or fog)
>> and its communications with nearby cars become less certain, and its
>> sensors show slipping wheels. It might not prevent crashes, but they
>> will be at much lower speed, and nothing like the carnage resulting from
>> multi-car pile-ups on a motorway.
>
> You might find that some think they can use the auto systems to drive
> faster in fog - many do not understand how slow you really need to drive
> in real fog.

The accident rate is more likely to be related to how many of these
systems go wrong or are only partially working. Once you have 10s of
millions of self driving cars how many will not be 100% fully
operational when it comes accurate steering/braking after they get to
,say, 10 years old?

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On 04/04/2022 08:55, Chris Green wrote:
> Indy Jess John <bathwatchdog@omitthisgooglemail.com> wrote:
>> On 03/04/2022 16:31, David Woolley wrote:
>>
>>> On the other hand, I've noticed that very few human drivers are able to
>>> detect pedestrians about to cross at an uncontrolled junction; the new
>>> highway code advises them to give way. I'm not sure that driverless
>>> cars will be any better.
>>>
>> I did my first "give way to pedestrians about to cross a road" last
>> Friday. The group of three stopped and had a short discussion about
>> whether they should cross the road before or after I turned into their
>> side road.
>>
>> It is one thing inventing rules of the road, but convincing the general
>> public they are sensible rules is another problem entirely.
>>
> It mostly works pretty well in France, we just need to change habits
> and expectations, hence the changes in the Highway Code.
>
Who reads the highway code after they have passed their test?
I'll guess that 90% of drivers don't even know that any changes have
been made.

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On 04/04/2022 23:17, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 04/04/2022 21:15, David Woolley wrote:
>> On 04/04/2022 15:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>> When I was young, we were taught something called "kerb drill" and
>>> when my children were young they were taught something called the
>>> "green cross code", which appeared to be the same thing with a
>>> different name,
>>
>> I think the difference was that kerb drill required you to look right,
>> left, then right again, but the green cross code just required you to
>> look for traffic.
>
> Stop, Look, and Listen before you cross the street.
> Use your eyes and use your ears before you use your feet.
>
> That was the road safety message taught in my primary school.
>

It wouldn't be allowed today, it excludes deaf blind kids!

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On 03/04/2022 12:03, Wilf wrote:

> They also drive on the left in India and Pakistan, and there is a fairly
> large population there.

All the TV footage I've seen suggests that they drive on whatever side
they want :)

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On 06/04/2022 01:37, alan_m wrote:
> On narrow single track roads it's often advantage driving at night with
> lights on. You see the approaching cars lights illuminating the blind
> bends long before you encounter the car.

I would have thought that it is an advantage to drive everywhere at
night with lights on?

An colleague worked in the Middle East for a couple of years, the truck
drivers there drove with their lights off and he was nearly killed when
one hit the car he was driving.

On 06/04/2022 02:07, alan_m wrote:
>
> All the TV footage I've seen suggests that they drive on whatever side
> they want:)

I once read a newspaper article by an expert who went out to India to
give advice on road safety. He was horrified at the large numbers of
road accidents and the complacency about it.

In message <jb47doFc2mqU3@mid.individual.net>, alan_m
<junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> writes
>On 03/04/2022 12:03, Wilf wrote:
>
>> They also drive on the left in India and Pakistan, and there is a
>>fairly large population there.
>
>All the TV footage I've seen suggests that they drive on whatever side
>they want :)
>
As the saying goes (well, at least what I heard about Malta).......
"Officially they drive on the left, but they prefer to drive in the
shade".
--
Ian

If you really want a laugh listen to the old radio series where Dragnet
started. My names Friday and the dead pan way the cops tended to talk was
hilarious. Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.
The whole lot was actually funded by a cigarette company, an the extent to
which they went to so called prove they caused no harm was rather telling.
You would not get away with it nowadays, Economical with the truth and
really blatant
lies.
In one of the old American series on radio when they went through the list
of cast members they actually say and the cigarette was xxx this is your
announcer Fred bloggs speaking...

I tend to listen to these on Mushroom Escape on the internet.

Brian

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"Jim Lesurf" <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:59d3ca8efenoise@audiomisc.co.uk...
> I've recently re-watched some of the old "Gideon of The Yard" episodes
> that
> were made by the same company that had made "The Saint" TV series. The
> level of 'drama' is a tad low by modern standards, but the stories seem
> decent adaptions from the books.
>
> You mentioning Dragnet made me recall a series that I think was called
> "Cannonball" which was about the adventures of a pair of USA 'truckers'.
> But in both cases all I can remember is no more than an image of them on
> screen - plus, for Dragnet their catchphrase "Ten-Four". I think that was
> lampooned in "Mad" magazine. 8-]
>
> The Maigret series was on Talking Pictures TV recently.
>
> Jim
>
>
> In article <t2c98d$aef$1@dont-email.me>, Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)
> <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>> I noticed the original Perry Mason being screened the other day, the
>> sound on that was quite good, albeit mono. I never could stand that
>> series.
>
>> I wonder how far back they can go? There were a lot of old American tv
>> series made. 77 Sunset Strip, Dragnet,
>
>> I did spot a few episodes of a uk series, No hiding place the other day
>> on Talking pictures, the sound was quit good, but I'm not so soure about
>> Magret with Rupert Davies which was on somewhere the other night. It
>> might be nice to see Danger Man again, and unlike many I did think The
>> Prisoner was quite good if you read between the lines and look at it as
>> an extreme idea of how we were going as a society. Brian
>
> --
> Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
> Electronics
> https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
> biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
> Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
>

Yes the Rupert Davies one where as a kid all I seem to recall was that he
seemed always to be inside a cloud of smoke from his pipe.

I think some of the most over acted series were the Quatermass ones. When
they made the film and some of the later TV ones, they seemed to attempt to
duplicate the over acting with varying results. In the original you got the
feeling that most of the actors were used to performing on a stage so tended
to be loud with accentuated movements. Nowadays sadly its gone the other way
too much and we get mumbled speech and slouching around.
Brian

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"Chris Green" <cl@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:tugthi-62kk1.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
> Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> The Maigret series was on Talking Pictures TV recently.
>>
> Which one? There have been several over the years. The one I remember
> liking best was way back in the 1960s on the BBC.
>
> --
> Chris Green
> �

I don't recall the name of the series, but it was American, and was based in
space. There there were some very strange things like people not casting
shadows when they were out in space working on their ships. I mean you don't
get cloudy days in space. The obvious use of some kind of suspension system
for cables and even astronauts to very crudely simulate lack of gravity
made me laugh at the time.
Indeed most space based series also add explosion effects as you really
should not hear these at all until debris starts to hit the hull of your
ship, surely.
Brian

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"Roderick Stewart" <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:22ao4h92mulkg1qeofgnk7q4vug7klntbp@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 5 Apr 2022 11:06:53 +0100, Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>
>>Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> The Maigret series was on Talking Pictures TV recently.
>>>
>>Which one? There have been several over the years. The one I remember
>>liking best was way back in the 1960s on the BBC.
>
> I remember that one, though the only thing I can clearly remember from
> it was a scene where Maigret was looking round a dark room using a
> torch, and for a moment the beam of light cast a shadow of his hand
> holding the torch...
>
> Rod.

Yes, I agree they did. Unfortunately they did tend to look at that period of
US history a bit through rose coloured glasses.
Elton John/Bernie Taupin wrote a song about two under age runaways in that
50s time frame, which probably was never so innocent as we are told, called
Lonnie and Josie, that has the Elton John band with lead vocals by Kiki Dee
as I recall.
I really never did understand why American cop cars seemed to be so big.
Huge Chevvys that handled a bit like tanks.

The aerials seemed to be more like CB ones, but I think were cut for
somewhere in what we called band 1, and swung about wildely in the series as
they went around corners.

I've never seen more than a few excerpts from those on UK TV recently, and
wonder if the main series might have been lost.

Other old series you don't see now are Voyage to the bottom of the sea,
Danger Man and the Macmillan and Wife, Heart to Heart, etc, type of shows.
Brian

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"pinnerite" <pinnerite@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:20220405223454.e0ffed93f1452706453a6219@gmail.com...
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2022 09:10:14 +0100
> "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" <briang1@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would like to see the USA Highway Patrol series with Broderick Crawford
> again.
> They were very 1940-50 ish but they had style.
>
>
> --
> Mint 20.3, kernel 5.4.0-104-generic, Cinnamon 5.2.7
> running on an AMD Phenom II X4 Black edition processor with 16GB of DRAM.

On Wed, 6 Apr 2022 02:02:10 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 04/04/2022 23:17, Indy Jess John wrote:
>> On 04/04/2022 21:15, David Woolley wrote:
>>> On 04/04/2022 15:28, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>>> When I was young, we were taught something called "kerb drill" and
>>>> when my children were young they were taught something called the
>>>> "green cross code", which appeared to be the same thing with a
>>>> different name,
>>>
>>> I think the difference was that kerb drill required you to look right,
>>> left, then right again, but the green cross code just required you to
>>> look for traffic.
>>
>> Stop, Look, and Listen before you cross the street.
>> Use your eyes and use your ears before you use your feet.
>>
>> That was the road safety message taught in my primary school.
>>
>
>It wouldn't be allowed today, it excludes deaf blind kids!

Just like that message they sometimes used to put on the backs of ice
cream vans - "Mind that child - he may be deaf".

Rod.

On 06/04/2022 01:43, alan_m wrote:

> The accident rate is more likely to be related to how many of these
> systems go wrong or are only partially working. Once you have 10s of
> millions of self driving cars how many will not be 100% fully
> operational when it comes accurate steering/braking after they get to
> ,say, 10 years old?
>
>

But how many human drivers are fully functional when they get to, say, 19?

Bill

On 06/04/2022 08:54, Brian Gaff (Sofa) wrote:
> The aerials seemed to be more like CB ones, but I think were cut for
> somewhere in what we called band 1, and swung about wildely in the series as
> they went around corners.

Didn't they use 30-40MHz?

Bill

On 06/04/2022 14:15, williamwright wrote:
> Didn't they use 30-40MHz?
>
> Bill

Certainly down around there, must be remembered that there are many
sparsely populated areas in the US.

We had a 47 MHz RT at work and it had very good range (except when
Russian trawlers around!).

Also I was told that there was a plan to perhaps use low VHF on
Millennium night by the electricity companies because they could have
got UK wide coverage with a small number of sites. I think the big
worry was having to do a Black Start.

Sounds like a black art not a black start to me.
I do miss sporadic E and some of the wonderful openings to the states you
used to get for land mobiles when they used those frequencies.
Brian

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"MB" <MB@nospam.net> wrote in message news:t2khja$squ$1@dont-email.me...
> On 06/04/2022 14:15, williamwright wrote:
>> Didn't they use 30-40MHz?
>>
>> Bill
>
> Certainly down around there, must be remembered that there are many
> sparsely populated areas in the US.
>
> We had a 47 MHz RT at work and it had very good range (except when Russian
> trawlers around!).
>
> Also I was told that there was a plan to perhaps use low VHF on Millennium
> night by the electricity companies because they could have got UK wide
> coverage with a small number of sites. I think the big worry was having
> to do a Black Start.
>
>

On 03/04/2022 11:04, John Hall wrote:
> In message <t2bnsf$ugc$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff Layman
> <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> writes
>> On 03/04/2022 08:49, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> Would it really be worth all the inevitable carnage to try to change?
>>> How much of the billions it would cost would actually be spent on it
>>> and how much would end up in the pockets of politicians' chums?
>>
>> It's also a bit pointless when we are being told that self-driving
>> cars aren't that many years away. There won't be any steering wheel
>> once safety has been confirmed. Then we can change to driving on the
>> right if it's considered essential.
>>
>> Mind you, I wonder how long it'll take other road users and
>> pedestrians to adapt if we do change to DOTR. :-/
>>
>
> Even more worrying, how do you ensure that the software of all
> self-driving vehicles is updated simultaneously? If even 1% don't update
> in a timely fashion, it could be carnage.

You update them well ahead of time and make them change over a a set
time on a set date. Presumably they will all have GPS so they will know
the time and date.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

On 07/04/2022 18:42, Brian Gregory wrote:
> On 03/04/2022 11:04, John Hall wrote:
>> In message<t2bnsf$ugc$1@dont-email.me>, Jeff Layman
>> <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> writes
>>> On 03/04/2022 08:49, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would it really be worth all the inevitable carnage to try to change?
>>>> How much of the billions it would cost would actually be spent on it
>>>> and how much would end up in the pockets of politicians' chums?
>>>
>>> It's also a bit pointless when we are being told that self-driving
>>> cars aren't that many years away. There won't be any steering wheel
>>> once safety has been confirmed. Then we can change to driving on the
>>> right if it's considered essential.
>>>
>>> Mind you, I wonder how long it'll take other road users and
>>> pedestrians to adapt if we do change to DOTR. :-/
>>>
>>
>> Even more worrying, how do you ensure that the software of all
>> self-driving vehicles is updated simultaneously? If even 1% don't update
>> in a timely fashion, it could be carnage.
>
> You update them well ahead of time and make them change over a a set
> time on a set date. Presumably they will all have GPS so they will know
> the time and date.
>
I wonder what happens when every self-driving vehicle on the road
simultaneously updates to a software version with a dangerous bug in it?

Jim

On 08/04/2022 07:48, Indy Jess John wrote:

> I wonder what happens when every self-driving vehicle on the road
> simultaneously updates to a software version with a dangerous bug in it?

Software *and* hardware crash?!

--

Jeff

John Hall wrote:

> Even more worrying, how do you ensure that the software of all self-driving
> vehicles is updated simultaneously? If even 1% don't update in a timely fashion,
> it could be carnage.

Do self-driving vehicles even talk to each other (or back to the mothership) in
real-time? Are there standards for compatibility between manufacturers?

I presume not to the above. Isn't the point was that they are autonomous,
rather than some sort of "centrally guided fleet" waiting to bump into
everything around them the instant they lose mobile signal ...

On Fri, 8 Apr 2022 07:54:20 +0100
Jeff Layman <jmlayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 08/04/2022 07:48, Indy Jess John wrote:
>
> > I wonder what happens when every self-driving vehicle on the road
> > simultaneously updates to a software version with a dangerous bug
> > in it?
>
> Software *and* hardware crash?!
>

Just imagine the film of that happening! All from their own dashcams.

--
Davey.

On 08/04/2022 07:48, Indy Jess John wrote:

>>
> I wonder what happens when every self-driving vehicle on the road
> simultaneously updates to a software version with a dangerous bug in it?
>

Don't worry if its anything like a Microsoft update you will be at the
side of the road for hours.

Even on my current car the upgrades for the entertainment and sat nav
can take an hour once you have plugged in the USB stick with the new data.

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