On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:

> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.

There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
"stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).

--
Arthur Figgis

Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>
>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>
> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>

The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28 Jun
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be supplied to NR,
>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>
>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>
>Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had to
>travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby. There was
>some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton that made things late
>and my train disappeared off the PIS. A helpful member of staff on the
>platform, standing around and telling passengers as much as he could, said
>that was OK because the train had been rerouted and when that happened the
>PIS lost track of it; it would reappear shortly. And, lo, it did so
>reappear!

This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which counted
down how many minutes until the train was expected to arrive. If it got
to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated' to "two minutes", then a
minute later 'updated' to "two minutes" <rinse and repeat) it meant "we
have absolutely no idea where this train is, or when it will arrive".

It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired of
taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train Arrived".
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9fert$1579h$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:41 on Tue, 28 Jun
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>I’d not be relying on Google maps for timetable information. It’s a closed
>book as to how it works, and what might be the state of play one day might
>be different the next. Everything they do is in permanent beta and a state
>of flux.

I tend to broadly agree, although that doesn't stop usual suspects
haranguing us all saying how easy it is to research unfamiliar routes in
foreign places, ahead of arriving there by plane.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28 Jun
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be supplied
>>>> to NR,
>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>
>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>
>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had to
>> travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby.  There
>> was
>> some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton that made things late
>> and my train disappeared off the PIS.  A helpful member of staff on the
>> platform, standing around and telling passengers as much as he could,
>> said
>> that was OK because the train had been rerouted and when that happened
>> the
>> PIS lost track of it; it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did so
>> reappear!
>
> This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which counted
> down how many minutes until the train was expected to arrive. If it got
> to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated' to "two minutes", then a
> minute later 'updated' to "two minutes" <rinse and repeat) it meant "we
> have absolutely no idea where this train is, or when it will arrive".
>
> It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired of
> taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train Arrived".

Never seen them say anything but "Due", but then I haven't taken a train
though the Ely triangle in 50 years.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t9f544$143uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:24 on Tue, 28 Jun
2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9c2ca$elf1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:56:10 on Mon, 27 Jun
>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t97atv$bb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:27 on Sat, 25 Jun
>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> The browser
>>>>>>> version also lets you pick a time for driving and estimates the traffic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The app version does all that too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can’t see any such option in my Android phone or iPad apps.
>>>>
>>>> The Google Maps app on my Android phone has the same "Depart At/Arrive
>>>> By/Last" options as the browser, as well the radio buttons for selecting
>>>> which public transport modes. And another set for "Best Route/Fewer
>>>> Transfers/Less Walking/Wheelchair accessible".
>>>
>>> It has those for the PT options, but the “start at…etc” setting
>>> for driving is in the three-dot menu, as Anna has pointed out, not in
>>> the same place as for PT, and that option isn’t there at all for the
>>> cycling or walking modes.
>>
>> Traffic, transfer, and "less walking" don't apply to cycling and walking
>> routes. And wheelchair is moot for cycling, and incompatible with the
>> 3mph baked in for walking.
>
>Yes… but we’re not, or at least I was not, talking about any of those
>things, but about the fact that Google put the same option, start and
>finish times, in different places depending on which mode you’re using.

Which simply proves that despite being the biggest and most successful
IT company on the planet, they still can't find people to design
satisfactory user interfaces.
--
Roland Perry

In message <1IKdnT3ZZMkG7ib_nZ2dnUU7-KHNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
22:33:14 on Tue, 28 Jun 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>
>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>
>There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people
>said unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than
>just "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).

And there is of course a reason why sad anoraks might want to know, for
example if seeking to photograph what I understand to be one of the only
two EMR Regional trains which were re-liveried (and of course they lied
that they were going to do all of them).
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9fk3k$15rmf$7@dont-email.me>, at 19:17:08 on Tue, 28 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9cjs3$j935$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:54:43 on Mon, 27 Jun
>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t9c5ie$fe6a$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:50:38 on Mon, 27 Jun
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 27/06/2022 09:36, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <t9bobc$c055$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:05:00 on Mon, 27 Jun
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 27/06/2022 06:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <t9a27v$3v8ui$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:34 on Sun, 26
>>>>>>>> Jun 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> On 26/06/2022 10:10, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t991lf$3rija$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:25:34 on Sun, 26
>>>>>>>>>> Jun  2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 25/06/2022 21:59, Pamela wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 09:24  25 Jun 2022, Ken said:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2022 07:40:55 +0100, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <XnsAEC0E093441D837B93@144.76.35.252>, at 22:04:35
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on  Fri,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 24 Jun 2022, Pamela <pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How accurate are the train times given by Google Maps when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a journey?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not thinking of unusual days, such as when there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but ordinary days.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The advertised times of the trains are spot-in, even on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strike days (I just checked a local trip from a station
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without a service today, and it said catch a bus to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nearest station with a service, and change there). That
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> includes the 11min walk from said closed station to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nearest bus stop, and takes account of it being 7.30 here and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next such bus isn't for a couple of hours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. Google Maps is good at reflecting delays, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> replanning a route as delays occur. Google is even very good at
>>>>>>>>>>>>> accurately predicting when my local bus will actually turn up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I was let down about a month ago. I was in Glasgow on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ScotRail services were disrupted due to industrial action
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was an emergency timetable in place M-S. ScotRail advised Sunday
>>>>>>>>>>>>> passengers to check times on the day.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I left my hotel I planned my route in Google Maps and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> walked to Central Station Low Level to be greeted by station
>>>>>>>>>>>>> staff informing me that there was no train for at least an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> didn't get the amended TT uploaded, or services were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cancelled but the cancellations didn't make the system/Google.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>  My main interest is to know if the timetable info shown in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google  maps is  materially less up-to-date than the train or
>>>>>>>>>>>> coach  operator's own web  site.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Where do you think google gets its info from?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  It could be lots of places. The same "insider" sources as RTT
>>>>>>>>>> and Opentraintimes, perhaps. The answer may depend a lot on how
>>>>>>>>>> automated  they want it to be. Scanning 5 month old PDFs on more
>>>>>>>>>> than a dozen  TOC websites doesn't sound very likely. Or perhaps
>>>>>>>>>> there's someone  inside RDG whose job it is to keep all
>>>>>>>>>> independent journey planner  sites up to  date.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh dear, I'd have thought a computer guru like yourself would know
>>>>>>>>> the  very simple anser to that one. The electronic timetabls and
>>>>>>>>> real time  running information for just about every form of
>>>>>>>>> mechanised transport  known to man is available in raw form on
>>>>>>>>> the iternet,
>>
>>>>>>>>  And much of it is out of date, or as I've said earlier only
>>>>>>>> available as  pdfs. There are an awful lot of small bus companies to
>>>>>>>> go round polling.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> all you need is a programme, (Open Train Times, Bus Times, Google,
>>>>>>>>> etc) that takes those feeds and renders it in a form the average
>>>>>>>>> punter can use.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  As I've just checked, Google Maps isn't getting its data from RTT
>>>>>>>> (well,  not in erm... real time) because they are currently advising
>>>>>>>> travel on a  cancelled train. And why would Google Maps use an
>>>>>>>> intermediary, if they  could get the information from the Organ
>>>>>>>>Grinder?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No one suggested they use an intermediary.
>>>>>> I thought I saw mentions of RTT etc. They are intermediaries.
>>>>>> But if you believe they get it direct, who do you consider that to
>>>>>> be?
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna posted a list of Network Rail data feeds available.
>>>>
>>>> Which Google Maps doesn't appear to be reflecting in two examples I've
>>>> managed to find in seconds (even if it takes half an hour to type in the
>>>> detail).
>>>>
>>>> So we still have an open question: where is Google Maps getting its data
>>>> from, and how likely is it to be correct.
>>>
>>> We can be pretty sure it gets the data from the open APIs, but how often
>>> does it poll the data sources? Are some polled more frequently than
>>> others? Is it always a pull mechanism?
>>
>> I'm trying really hard not to scatter-gun the examples, so here's
>> another Stansted train today:
>>
>> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P88922/2022-06-28/detail
>> ed#allox_id=0>
>>
>> Cancelled end-to-end "Issue with train crew". (Rostas again).

^^^^^^^^^^^^ The reported situation at 7.30 am ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>According to RTT it ran roughly on-time from Birmingham to Peterborough.
>RTT says cancelled from Peterborough due to trespass; the railway internal
>system I can access says cancelled "due to the emergency services dealing
>with an incident".
>
>> Should have set out half a hour ago, so what does Google Maps have to
>> say?
>>
>> 7:30 AM
>> Melton Mowbray Railway Station
>> Burton St, Melton Mowbray LE13 1AF
>> TrainCrossCountryStansted Airport
>> 11 min (non-stop) on time
>> 7:41 AM
>> Oakham
>> LE15 6RE
>>
>> So same as yesterday, a train that's already been cancelled is
>> apparently "on time".
>
>Except that the RTT link you posted above says it really was on time at
>Melton Mowbray.

On Tue, 28 Jun 2022 19:17:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-06-26 10:54:25 +0000, Ken said:
>>
>>> On Sun, 26 Jun 2022 07:13:16 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <t96md9$3gjtb$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:01:13 on Sat, 25 Jun

>>
>> That kind of feature would also be useful for services that are prone
>> to distruption, eg buses subject to traffic delays. It is often wise to
>> get the first option heading in the right direction rather than waiting
>> for the last one that should, according to the timetable, make the
>> connection. Algorithmically, determining the earliest arrival time
>> possible departing after the stated departure time, then finding the
>> complete set of options that fit within that interval rather than just
>> the latest departure, and offering all of those (perhaps hidden behind
>> a "other options for this arrival" type button) should be possible.
>>
>
>Each leg of the journey on Google, if you click on it, will say "also at
>xx:xx and yy:yy". Clicking again will give earlier times too, so you can
>plan your own earlier departure.
>
>

Again, thank you for pointing out a feature I was unaware of; that is
the second click to get earlier times.

I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

Am 29.06.2022 um 09:24 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <t9fert$1579h$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:41 on Tue, 28 Jun
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>> I’d not be relying on Google maps for timetable information. It’s a
>> closed
>> book as to how it works, and what might be the state of play one day
>> might
>> be different the next. Everything they do is in permanent beta and a
>> state
>> of flux.
>
> I tend to broadly agree, although that doesn't stop usual suspects
> haranguing us all saying how easy it is to research unfamiliar routes in
> foreign places, ahead of arriving there by plane.

This reminds me of our holidays. My son insisted there was no bus back
because Google said so. My downloaded PDF timetable did not count
because it said 2019 on it, even though Ihad downloaded it directly from
the bus company's web site.

In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:

>I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.

That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
trackable phones, I have no idea.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9gv6l$1cbas$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:37 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be
>>>>>supplied to NR,
>>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>>
>>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had
>>>to travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby. 
>>>There was some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton that
>>>made things late and my train disappeared off the PIS.  A helpful
>>>member of staff on the platform, standing around and telling
>>>passengers as much as he could, said that was OK because the train
>>>had been rerouted and when that happened the PIS lost track of it;
>>>it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did so reappear!

>> This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which
>>counted down how many minutes until the train was expected to arrive.
>>If it got to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated' to "two
>>minutes", then a minute later 'updated' to "two minutes" <rinse and
>>repeat) it meant "we have absolutely no idea where this train is, or
>>when it will arrive".

>> It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired
>>of taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train
>>Arrived".
>
>Never seen them say anything but "Due",

That sounds like the equivalent of bus-stop PIS where hh:mm means
"that's what the timetable says, but we have no idea where the bus
actually is", versus "3 min" which means "We think we know the bus is 3
minutes away (but who knows what the timetable says, we haven't got
enough characters available on the display to say whether that's early
or late, even if wanted to lift our skirt that much, which we probably
don't)".

>but then I haven't taken a train though the Ely triangle in 50 years.

<Yawn> I wasn't living here 15yrs ago.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/06/2022 09:37, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t9gv6l$1cbas$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:37 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be
>>>>>> supplied  to NR,
>>>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>>>
>>>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had
>>>> to  travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby.
>>>> There  was  some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton that
>>>> made things late  and my train disappeared off the PIS.  A helpful
>>>> member of staff on the  platform, standing around and telling
>>>> passengers as much as he could,  said  that was OK because the train
>>>> had been rerouted and when that happened  the  PIS lost track of it;
>>>> it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did so  reappear!
>
>>>  This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which
>>> counted  down how many minutes until the train was expected to
>>> arrive. If it got  to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated' to
>>> "two minutes", then a  minute later 'updated' to "two minutes" <rinse
>>> and repeat) it meant "we  have absolutely no idea where this train
>>> is, or when it will arrive".
>
>>>  It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired
>>> of  taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train
>>> Arrived".
>>
>> Never seen them say anything but "Due",
>
> That sounds like the equivalent of bus-stop PIS where hh:mm means
> "that's what the timetable says, but we have no idea where the bus
> actually is", versus "3 min" which means "We think we know the bus is 3
> minutes away (but who knows what the timetable says, we haven't got
> enough characters available on the display to say whether that's early
> or late, even if wanted to lift our skirt that much, which we probably
> don't)".
>

The info is generally available, eg bustimes.org shows how late a given
bus is. So it is just lack of room on the display, not some vast
conspiracy to hide things from the sage of Ely.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>
> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
> trackable phones, I have no idea.

Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
I get a pop-up in the app with questions about how full the journey is,
what facilities are on board etc.

(Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)

There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
planners for many years.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 29/06/2022 10:11, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
>> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>>
>> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
>> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
>> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
>> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
>> trackable phones, I have no idea.
>
> Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
> I get a pop-up in the app with questions about how full the journey is,
> what facilities are on board etc.
>
> (Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
> journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)
>
> There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
> reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
> planners for many years.
>

I believe first bus have that info available on their app, at least for
some areas. Haven't checked it personally but I've seen the adds on
their buses.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <t9h2r7$1ckki$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:48 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 29.06.2022 um 09:24 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <t9fert$1579h$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:41 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I’d not be relying on Google maps for timetable information.
>>>It’s a closed book as to how it works, and what might be the state
>>>of play one day might be different the next. Everything they do is
>>>in permanent beta and a state of flux.

>> I tend to broadly agree, although that doesn't stop usual suspects
>>haranguing us all saying how easy it is to research unfamiliar routes
>>in foreign places, ahead of arriving there by plane.
>
>This reminds me of our holidays. My son insisted there was no bus back
>because Google said so. My downloaded PDF timetable did not count
>because it said 2019 on it, even though Ihad downloaded it directly
>from the bus company's web site.

Which was right though? I could show you things downloaded from bus and
train company websites that are nevertheless years out of date. Or
contradictory - like the three different versions of where m-tickeing is
available that were on the Greater Anglia Website.

There comes a point you give up and say "why should I believe *any* of
it?

In fact earlier in the week I posted an example of how a timetable[1]
still on the Great Northern website, dated 15th May, is *already* out of
date.

[1] And I didn't go searching for it, that's the timetable for the line
I can see out of my window.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9h50g$1csiq$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:44 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
>> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>>
>> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
>> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
>> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
>> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
>> trackable phones, I have no idea.
>
>Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
>I get a pop-up in the app

On your phone?

>with questions about how full the journey is, what facilities are on
>board etc.
>
>(Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
>journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)
>
>There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
>reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
>planners for many years.

A what granularity - different on Tuesdays and Fridays for a specific
service, or just a long-term eyeball from a guard, or even loading
sensors?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t9h3di$1cn7j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:34 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/06/2022 09:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t9gv6l$1cbas$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:37 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28
>>>>Jun 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be
>>>>>>>supplied  to NR,
>>>>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>>>>
>>>>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had
>>>>>to  travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby.
>>>>>There  was  some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton
>>>>>that made things late  and my train disappeared off the PIS.  A
>>>>>helpful member of staff on the  platform, standing around and
>>>>>telling passengers as much as he could,  said  that was OK because
>>>>>the train had been rerouted and when that happened  the  PIS lost
>>>>>track of it; it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did so  reappear!
>>
>>>>  This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which
>>>>counted  down how many minutes until the train was expected to
>>>>arrive. If it got  to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated'
>>>>to "two minutes", then a  minute later 'updated' to "two minutes"
>>>><rinse and repeat) it meant "we  have absolutely no idea where this
>>>>train is, or when it will arrive".
>>
>>>>  It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired
>>>>of  taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train
>>>>Arrived".
>>>
>>> Never seen them say anything but "Due",

>> That sounds like the equivalent of bus-stop PIS where hh:mm means
>>"that's what the timetable says, but we have no idea where the bus
>>actually is", versus "3 min" which means "We think we know the bus is
>>3 minutes away (but who knows what the timetable says, we haven't got
>>enough characters available on the display to say whether that's early
>>or late, even if wanted to lift our skirt that much, which we probably don't)".
>
>The info is generally available, eg bustimes.org shows how late a given
>bus is.

Not always, just checked my closest bus stop and it just the
aspirational times. For balance I just checked the bus stop closest to
where I was living (busy city area) in the Midlands 10yrs ago, same
answer. Perhaps you could nominate a route where we can see this in
action?

>So it is just lack of room on the display, not some vast conspiracy to
>hide things from the sage of Ely.

<Yawn> the bus stops here don't have PIS.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/06/2022 11:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t9h3di$1cn7j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:34 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/06/2022 09:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t9gv6l$1cbas$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:37 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28
>>>>> Jun  2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be
>>>>>>>> supplied  to NR,
>>>>>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had
>>>>>> to  travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at
>>>>>> Derby. There  was  some incident on the line from Birmingham to
>>>>>> Burton that  made things late  and my train disappeared off the
>>>>>> PIS.  A helpful  member of staff on the  platform, standing around
>>>>>> and telling  passengers as much as he could,  said  that was OK
>>>>>> because the train  had been rerouted and when that happened  the
>>>>>> PIS lost track of it;  it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did
>>>>>> so  reappear!
>>>
>>>>>  This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which
>>>>> counted  down how many minutes until the train was expected to
>>>>> arrive. If it got  to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated'
>>>>> to  "two minutes", then a  minute later 'updated' to "two minutes"
>>>>> <rinse  and repeat) it meant "we  have absolutely no idea where
>>>>> this train  is, or when it will arrive".
>>>
>>>>>  It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired
>>>>> of  taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train
>>>>> Arrived".
>>>>
>>>> Never seen them say anything but "Due",
>
>>>  That sounds like the equivalent of bus-stop PIS where hh:mm means
>>> "that's what the timetable says, but we have no idea where the bus
>>> actually is", versus "3 min" which means "We think we know the bus is
>>> 3  minutes away (but who knows what the timetable says, we haven't
>>> got enough characters available on the display to say whether that's
>>> early or late, even if wanted to lift our skirt that much, which we
>>> probably don't)".
>>
>> The info is generally available, eg bustimes.org shows how late a
>> given bus is.
>
> Not always, just checked my closest bus stop and it just the
> aspirational times. For balance I just checked the bus stop closest to
> where I was living (busy city area) in the Midlands 10yrs ago, same
> answer. Perhaps you could nominate a route where we can see this in action?
>

You often have to dig a little deeper into the system to find it. Try
tapping on the time at your local bus stop and you should get a map
showing where the bus actually is and how late it is running.

>> So it is just lack of room on the display, not some vast conspiracy to
>> hide things from the sage of Ely.
>
> <Yawn> the bus stops here don't have PIS.

So they lack the means to display the information, as I said.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9h50g$1csiq$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:44 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
>>> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>>>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>>>
>>> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
>>> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
>>> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
>>> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
>>> trackable phones, I have no idea.
>>
>> Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
>> I get a pop-up in the app
>
> On your phone?

Yes, within the same Google Maps app as I searched for the journey, and
whilst making the journey.

>> with questions about how full the journey is, what facilities are on
>> board etc.
>>
>> (Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
>> journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)
>>
>> There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
>> reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
>> planners for many years.
>
> A what granularity

One person, two people or three red people are the icons used.

> - different on Tuesdays and Fridays for a specific
> service,

Yes, and different for different legs of the journey too.

> or just a long-term eyeball from a guard, or even loading
> sensors?

I don't know where SBB get their information from.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9h3di$1cn7j$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:44:34 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 29/06/2022 09:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t9gv6l$1cbas$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:32:37 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 29/06/2022 08:22, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <t9fbpc$14s18$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:55:08 on Tue, 28
>>>>> Jun 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Likewise, TOC induced alterations to the timetable must be
>>>>>>>> supplied  to NR,
>>>>>>>> both for the displays and for the signallers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but how well does this get reflected by Google Maps?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anecdata aside, very likely antique: Some 10 years ago or so I had
>>>>>> to  travel from Burton-on-Trent to Loughborough, changing at Derby.
>>>>>> There  was  some incident on the line from Birmingham to Burton
>>>>>> that made things late  and my train disappeared off the PIS.  A
>>>>>> helpful member of staff on the  platform, standing around and
>>>>>> telling passengers as much as he could,  said  that was OK because
>>>>>> the train had been rerouted and when that happened  the  PIS lost
>>>>>> track of it; it would reappear shortly.  And, lo, it did so  reappear!
>>>
>>>>>  This reminds me of the generation of PIS perhaps 15yrs ago which
>>>>> counted  down how many minutes until the train was expected to
>>>>> arrive. If it got  to "two minutes", then a minute later 'updated'
>>>>> to "two minutes", then a  minute later 'updated' to "two minutes"
>>>>> <rinse and repeat) it meant "we  have absolutely no idea where this
>>>>> train is, or when it will arrive".
>>>
>>>>>  It's not *that* much better today at many stations, and I've tired
>>>>> of  taking photos of the PIS at an empty platform saying "Train
>>>>> Arrived".
>>>>
>>>> Never seen them say anything but "Due",
>
>>> That sounds like the equivalent of bus-stop PIS where hh:mm means
>>> "that's what the timetable says, but we have no idea where the bus
>>> actually is", versus "3 min" which means "We think we know the bus is
>>> 3 minutes away (but who knows what the timetable says, we haven't got
>>> enough characters available on the display to say whether that's early
>>> or late, even if wanted to lift our skirt that much, which we probably don't)".
>>
>> The info is generally available, eg bustimes.org shows how late a given
>> bus is.
>
> Not always, just checked my closest bus stop and it just the
> aspirational times. For balance I just checked the bus stop closest to
> where I was living (busy city area) in the Midlands 10yrs ago, same
> answer. Perhaps you could nominate a route where we can see this in
> action?
>

Checking the live map on that site <https://bustimes.org/map> the only
buses near Ely showing their live position are on routes 9, 12 and Zip; so
perhaps try a stop served by one of those routes?

If you click on a vehicle icon it shows the journeys for the day, and if
you click on the journey it shows the actual timings, for example
<https://bustimes.org/vehicles/19255?date=2022-06-29#journeys/279678030>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Am 29.06.2022 um 12:10 schrieb Roland Perry:
> In message <t9h2r7$1ckki$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:34:48 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>> Am 29.06.2022 um 09:24 schrieb Roland Perry:
>>> In message <t9fert$1579h$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:47:41 on Tue, 28 Jun
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I’d not be relying on Google maps for timetable information. It’s a
>>>> closed  book as to how it works, and what might be the state of play
>>>> one day  might  be different the next. Everything they do is in
>>>> permanent beta and a  state  of flux.
>
>>>  I tend to broadly agree, although that doesn't stop usual suspects
>>> haranguing us all saying how easy it is to research unfamiliar routes
>>> in  foreign places, ahead of arriving there by plane.
>>
>> This reminds me of our holidays.  My son insisted there was no bus
>> back because Google said so.  My downloaded PDF timetable did not
>> count because it said 2019 on it, even though Ihad downloaded it
>> directly from the bus company's web site.
>
> Which was right though? I could show you things downloaded from bus and
> train company websites that are nevertheless years out of date. Or
> contradictory - like the three different versions of where m-tickeing is
> available that were on the Greater Anglia Website.

I don't know. The bus stop in the town center displayed the timetable I
had (no service from the town center of Ciotat to Cassis on Wednesday
afternoon but a service staring from a 6th form college a mile's walk
away). My son insisted on taking a bus to the railway station, the
train and bus/walk walk instead of the direct bus.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>
>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
>>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>
>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>
>
> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
> appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)

I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9f544$143uu$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:01:24 on Tue, 28 Jun
> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t9c2ca$elf1$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:56:10 on Mon, 27 Jun
>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <t97atv$bb2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:51:27 on Sat, 25 Jun
>>>>> 2022, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The browser
>>>>>>>> version also lets you pick a time for driving and estimates the traffic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The app version does all that too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can’t see any such option in my Android phone or iPad apps.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Google Maps app on my Android phone has the same "Depart At/Arrive
>>>>> By/Last" options as the browser, as well the radio buttons for selecting
>>>>> which public transport modes. And another set for "Best Route/Fewer
>>>>> Transfers/Less Walking/Wheelchair accessible".
>>>>
>>>> It has those for the PT options, but the “start at…etc” setting
>>>> for driving is in the three-dot menu, as Anna has pointed out, not in
>>>> the same place as for PT, and that option isn’t there at all for the
>>>> cycling or walking modes.
>>>
>>> Traffic, transfer, and "less walking" don't apply to cycling and walking
>>> routes. And wheelchair is moot for cycling, and incompatible with the
>>> 3mph baked in for walking.
>>
>> Yes… but we’re not, or at least I was not, talking about any of those
>> things, but about the fact that Google put the same option, start and
>> finish times, in different places depending on which mode you’re using.
>
> Which simply proves that despite being the biggest and most successful
> IT company on the planet, they still can't find people to design
> satisfactory user interfaces.

Thanks - that’s pretty much the position I started from.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t9hk04$1ej6g$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:27:32 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9h50g$1csiq$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:44 on Wed, 29 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
>>>> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>>>>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>>>>
>>>> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
>>>> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
>>>> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
>>>> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
>>>> trackable phones, I have no idea.
>>>
>>> Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
>>> I get a pop-up in the app
>>
>> On your phone?
>
>Yes, within the same Google Maps app as I searched for the journey, and
>whilst making the journey.
>
>>> with questions about how full the journey is, what facilities are on
>>> board etc.
>>>
>>> (Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
>>> journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)
>>>
>>> There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
>>> reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
>>> planners for many years.
>>
>> A what granularity
>
>One person, two people or three red people are the icons used.

Actually, I meant what emerges in your next comment.

>> - different on Tuesdays and Fridays for a specific service,
>
>Yes, and different for different legs of the journey too.
>
>> or just a long-term eyeball from a guard, or even loading
>> sensors?
>
>I don't know where SBB get their information from.
--
Roland Perry