Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>
>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
>>>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>>>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>
>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>
>>
>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
>> appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>
> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>

The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)

The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
in the journey?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems (which is mere
>>>>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>>>>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>>
>>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>>
>>>
>>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
>>> appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>>
>> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
>> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
>> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
>> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>>
>
> The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)
>
> The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
> in the journey?

Possible, though the carriage allocation was still facing the same way,
IYSWIM; it wasn’t just that the train was backwards. Too late now to check
on RTT, unfortunately.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <t9hopp$1f4o3$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:30 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems
>>>>>(which is mere
>>>>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>>>>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>>
>>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>
>>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
>>> appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>>
>> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
>> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
>> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
>> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>
>The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)
>
>The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
>in the journey?

Given the number of times a train might reverse en-route I wouldn't
expect RTT to be making a statement about which order the carriages
were. My straw poll just now (of one which reverse twice) doesn't show
it swapping the consist after a reverse.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9hopp$1f4o3$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:30 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems
>>>>>> (which is mere
>>>>>> traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc) train formations, unit
>>>>>> numbers etc., so the information is available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>>>
>>>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>>
>>>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit numbers started
>>>> appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>>>
>>> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
>>> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
>>> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
>>> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>>
>> The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)
>>
>> The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
>> in the journey?
>
> Given the number of times a train might reverse en-route I wouldn't
> expect RTT to be making a statement about which order the carriages
> were. My straw poll just now (of one which reverse twice) doesn't show
> it swapping the consist after a reverse.
>

It certainly does for some services:

<https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43734/2022-06-29/detailed#allox_id=1>

Gloucester [GCR]
Service reverses here
4 0657
0705

Operated with:
800029 + 800035 to Gloucester
800035 + 800029 to London Paddington

Correctly shown with coaches GHJKL in 800035 and ABCDE in 800029.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 29/06/2022 09:34, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> This reminds me of our holidays.  My son insisted there was no bus back
> because Google said so.  My downloaded PDF timetable did not count
> because it said 2019 on it, even though Ihad downloaded it directly from
> the bus company's web site.

I've made the mistake of assuming that a PDF on a bus company's website
must be accurate and up to date, because surely they would have updated
it or deleted it if it wasn't...

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <t9i1lj$1g944$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:20:51 on Wed, 29 Jun
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <t9hopp$1f4o3$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:30 on Wed, 29 Jun
>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems
>>>>>>>(which is mere traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc)
>>>>>>>train formations, unit numbers etc., so the information is
>>>>>>>available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>>>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>>>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>>>
>>>>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit
>>>>>numbers started appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>>>>
>>>> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
>>>> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
>>>> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
>>>> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>>>
>>> The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)
>>>
>>> The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
>>> in the journey?
>>
>> Given the number of times a train might reverse en-route I wouldn't
>> expect RTT to be making a statement about which order the carriages
>> were. My straw poll just now (of one which reverse twice) doesn't show
>> it swapping the consist after a reverse.
>
>It certainly does for some services:
>
><https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43734/2022-06-29/detail
>ed#allox_id=1>
>
>Gloucester [GCR]
>Service reverses here
>4
>0657
>0705
>
>Operated with:
>800029 + 800035 to Gloucester
>800035 + 800029 to London Paddington
>
>Correctly shown with coaches GHJKL in 800035 and ABCDE in 800029.

Our task here is to determine "why only 'some' "

--
Roland Perry

On 2022-06-29 10:12:32 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <t9h50g$1csiq$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:11:44 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sn1obhlmkeg1sv3ed1ch6obvjhkaasq13o@4ax.com>, at 09:03:50 on
>>> Wed, 29 Jun 2022, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> I still find Maps astonishing in its scope, even to the point of
>>>> having a decent guess at telling you how full your bus will be.
>>>
>>> That'll presumably be a subset of their how-busy-is-the-shop-each-hour
>>> system, and will rely on sufficient number of people on the bus the past
>>> weeks and months having built up a history, from their trackable phones.
>>> How they normalise that with the number of customers/pax without
>>> trackable phones, I have no idea.
>>
>> Whenever I ride a bus/tram after searching for that journey in Google maps,
>> I get a pop-up in the app
>
> On your phone?
>
>> with questions about how full the journey is, what facilities are on board etc.
>>
>> (Sometimes I also get that question even if I didn't actually make the
>> journey, eg searched for it and then walked/cycled/taxi)
>>
>> There may also be other sources of information; for example SBB have been
>> reporting the expected loading of their services in their online journey
>> planners for many years.
>
> A what granularity - different on Tuesdays and Fridays for a specific
> service, or just a long-term eyeball from a guard, or even loading
> sensors?

The data is presented as 1/2/3 person icons. Generally 1-man means
you'll most likely get a bay-of-four to yourself, 2 means you'll get a
seat, but will have to share a bay, and 3 means there is a chance you
might have to stand. They are presented for each station-to-station
portion of each individual train's run. So the IR between Basel and
Zürich at a particular time might be 1-man for Basel-Reinfelden and
Reinfelden-Frick, then 2-man for Frick-Brugg and Brugg-Baden, then 3
man for Baden-Zürich HB. I'm not sure where the data actually comes
from, but it is generally reasonably accurate, even on what might seem
to be irregular situations, for example if there is a sporting event,
it wil predict trains on relevant routes at relevant times as being
busy, where trains on the same routes and times of day when there is no
sporting event would not show as busy.

Robin

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <t9i1lj$1g944$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:20:51 on Wed, 29 Jun
> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <t9hopp$1f4o3$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:49:30 on Wed, 29 Jun
>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 28/06/2022 20:17, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My gWr colleagues with access to the correct railway systems
>>>>>>>> (which is mere traincrew can't access) can indeed see XC (etc)
>>>>>>>> train formations, unit numbers etc., so the information is
>>>>>>>> available with/by/for/from (shrug) NR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was some fuss a while back when CrossCountry's Twitter people said
>>>>>>> unit numbers were secret for some unconvincing reason (rather than just
>>>>>>> "stop wasting our time you sad anorak" or whatever).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The most recent time was only a few weeks before their unit
>>>>>> numbers started appearing in RTT!! #DontTellCrossCountry refers ;)
>>>>>
>>>>> I was on an Avanti double Super Voyager recently and it turned up with the
>>>>> units the opposite way round from how RTT thought they would be, but with
>>>>> the carriage letters in the same units, so the front carriage was G or H or
>>>>> whatever and the leading carriage of the second unit was A.
>>>>
>>>> The output is only as good as the information put into the system! ;)
>>>>
>>>> The other possibility is that the train had unexpected been turned earlier
>>>> in the journey?
>>>
>>> Given the number of times a train might reverse en-route I wouldn't
>>> expect RTT to be making a statement about which order the carriages
>>> were. My straw poll just now (of one which reverse twice) doesn't show
>>> it swapping the consist after a reverse.
>>
>> It certainly does for some services:
>>
>> <https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43734/2022-06-29/detail
>> ed#allox_id=1>
>>
>> Gloucester [GCR]
>> Service reverses here
>> 4
>> 0657
>> 0705
>>
>> Operated with:
>> 800029 + 800035 to Gloucester
>> 800035 + 800029 to London Paddington
>>
>> Correctly shown with coaches GHJKL in 800035 and ABCDE in 800029.
>
> Our task here is to determine "why only 'some' "
>

Ask <https://mobile.twitter.com/swlines>, perhaps ("I make
@RealtimeTrains"). Or <https://mobile.twitter.com/RealtimeTrains> if you
want to go through the public-facing channel.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 26/6/22 06:59, Pamela wrote:

>
> My main interest is to know if the timetable info shown in Google maps is
> materially less up-to-date than the train or coach operator's own web
> site.

Both are probably update via the same/similar scripts on the timetabling
system. Google will use a high degree of automation and the changes good
or bad will flow through in a few minutes, the operator's web site
probably has to have changes 'approved' by their marketing team.

In message <t9lu47$264pd$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:44:55 on Fri, 1 Jul
2022, Matthew Geier <matthew@sleeper.apana.org.au> remarked:
>On 26/6/22 06:59, Pamela wrote:
>
>> My main interest is to know if the timetable info shown in Google maps is
>> materially less up-to-date than the train or coach operator's own web
>> site.
>
>Both are probably update via the same/similar scripts on the timetabling
>system. Google will use a high degree of automation and the changes good
>or bad will flow through in a few minutes, the operator's web site
>probably has to have changes 'approved' by their marketing team.

Although I've posted a specific example where Google is days (possibly
weeks) out of date.

I've looked again just now and Kings Lynn to Cambridge, Google says

6:41 7:34
7:10 8:04
8:44 9:36

Whereas industry sources all have 7:48 8:45 as well. (And it's been
like that all week).
--
Roland Perry

In message <p++P5FpVBAviFAds@perry.uk>, at 08:33:41 on Wed, 29 Jun 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:

>>Yesterday I picked a train which was running late at Castle Cary, and
>>Google Maps showed it with the correct lateness both in the live departures
>>screen and a journey search from that station.
>
>Thanks. I'll still be keeping an eye on Melton Mowbray, just in case
>one swallow doesn't make a Spring. [Nothing yet today].

Manea
9:10 AM <<crossed out>>
9:14 AM
Manea (MNE)
Train GreaterAnglia
26 min (3 stops) 4 min late
9:40 AM
Peterborough

So that's working. Perhaps the "On Time" for the train earlier in the
week which was showing as cancelled {although later mysteriously
un-cancelled} was from the original timing of the train.

In other news, saw the Royal Train going through Ely today, but it's not
on any of the real-time sites as far as I can tell.
--
Roland Perry

In message <EMokVcIM6qviFAbU@perry.uk>, at 09:21:32 on Fri, 1 Jul 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:

>In other news, saw the Royal Train going through Ely today, but it's
>not on any of the real-time sites as far as I can tell.

Apparently in Edinburgh yesterday. Might be ECS back from Kings Lynn.
--
Roland Perry