In message <ta6l2n$clot$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:54:47 on Thu, 7 Jul
2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 07/07/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ta64nu$av6p$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:58 on Thu, 7 Jul
>>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 07/07/2022 09:02, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> With six cities to choose from, it's unlikely that any will get
>>>>>more than
>>>>> 30% of the vote. So, almost certainly, the most popular will
>>>>>actually not
>>>>> be the choice of the majority who vote.
>>>>
>>>> I suspect the most import factors will be the number of people living
>>>> near each proposed site and campaigns in those area.
>>>
>>> Yes, probably. But, of course, those factors have nothing to do with
>>>which
>>> would actually be the best location for the HQ.
>>>
>>> I wonder if they actually plan to move large numbers of NR and DfT staff
>>> there, or will it just be a token HQ, with most staff staying where they
>>> are?  If the former, a lot of experienced people will choose not to
>>>go, as
>>> already happened when NR moved to MK.

>> Or when the BBC moved a lot of their production from London to
>>Mediocrity.
>
>Some might argue that BBC in London was mediocrity when it came to news
>coverage of events more than about 25 miles away from London.....

It covered 'events' happening all over the world, assisted by people who
came into the studio to sit on the sofa and give their own perspective
on things. Just because London is bigger, has far better transport
links, and most national and international movers and shakers also
gravitated to London, the talent pool was huge.

When they started saying "can you get to Salford for 7am tomorrow
morning" the unanimous answer was "are you kidding". They did struggle
on for a while using Manchester-based guests, but it simply didn't work.
--
Roland Perry

In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
remarked:
>On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>trains are run by son-of OLR.
>
>The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>still be contracted out.

It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ta6l2n$clot$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:54:47 on Thu, 7 Jul
> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 07/07/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ta64nu$av6p$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:58 on Thu, 7 Jul
>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> On 07/07/2022 09:02, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> With six cities to choose from, it's unlikely that any will get
>>>>>> more than
>>>>>> 30% of the vote. So, almost certainly, the most popular will
>>>>>> actually not
>>>>>> be the choice of the majority who vote.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect the most import factors will be the number of people living
>>>>> near each proposed site and campaigns in those area.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, probably. But, of course, those factors have nothing to do with
>>>> which
>>>> would actually be the best location for the HQ.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if they actually plan to move large numbers of NR and DfT staff
>>>> there, or will it just be a token HQ, with most staff staying where they
>>>> are?  If the former, a lot of experienced people will choose not to
>>>> go, as
>>>> already happened when NR moved to MK.
>
>>> Or when the BBC moved a lot of their production from London to
>>> Mediocrity.
>>
>> Some might argue that BBC in London was mediocrity when it came to news
>> coverage of events more than about 25 miles away from London.....
>
> It covered 'events' happening all over the world, assisted by people who
> came into the studio to sit on the sofa and give their own perspective
> on things. Just because London is bigger, has far better transport
> links, and most national and international movers and shakers also
> gravitated to London, the talent pool was huge.
>
> When they started saying "can you get to Salford for 7am tomorrow
> morning" the unanimous answer was "are you kidding". They did struggle
> on for a while using Manchester-based guests, but it simply didn't work.

So you assert, but colleagues of mine have gone to Salford to be guests on
the Breakfast programme. Not everyone is a London based politician. There’s
also this thing called video link interviews from London studios (or from
outside Parliament/Downing Street at the moment). It works for me as a
viewer.

On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>
>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>> still be contracted out.
>
> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
> of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
> have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
> than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
> a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.

Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
the next right wing leader.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 09:29:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <m75dcht963sjhfeeehbrri543ib0cc2145@4ax.com>, at 09:11:28 on
>Thu, 7 Jul 2022, John Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:

>>....... Or anywhere at all in Scotland or Wales.
>
>Scotland would be rather odd, considering Scotrail is separately
>governed from Holyrood. And Wales almost as much from Cardiff.
>
>If the objective is to have something near the "centre of gravity" of
>the railway system, I hate to say it but Milton Keynes isn't that far
>off.

Indeed yes, although that calls into question the accuracy of the name
"Great *British* Railways".

It should be Great English Railways.

In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>remarked:
>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>
>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>still be contracted out.
>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>one of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>necessarily have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>whoever) rather than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>political will to have a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>
>Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>the next right wing leader.

While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
franchises?

In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
the Treasury to veto it.

As PM, which way would she go?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
> remarked:
>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>> trains are run by son-of OLR.
>>
>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>> still be contracted out.
>
> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
> of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
> have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
> than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
> a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.

Surely timetabling was already done by NR? Why would that change?

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>
>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>> still be contracted out.
>>
>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
>> of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
>> have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
>> than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
>> a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>
> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
> the next right wing leader.

What's in danger is HS2. Johnson loves big, expensive infrastructure
projects, but most right-wing Tories don't. I bet several of his potential
successors would happily either cancel HS2 altogether, or cut it back
further.

GBR won't be cancelled, but might find it has to make do with a reduced
budget. Potential reopening projects will probably be deferred
indefinitely.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>
>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>> still be contracted out.
>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>> one of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>> necessarily have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>> whoever) rather than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>> political will to have a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>
>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>> the next right wing leader.
>
> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
> franchises?

I don't think the new PM will be acting as Transport secretary as well. And
whoever the new transport secretary is, classic franchises have gone for
good.

>
> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
> the Treasury to veto it.
>
> As PM, which way would she go?

She'd keep out of it. PMs have lots of much bigger things to worry about.

In message <j4nfch90f4fgi6letoj280jue4cjnt0e11@4ax.com>, at 08:30:31 on
Fri, 8 Jul 2022, John Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 09:29:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <m75dcht963sjhfeeehbrri543ib0cc2145@4ax.com>, at 09:11:28 on
>>Thu, 7 Jul 2022, John Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>....... Or anywhere at all in Scotland or Wales.
>>
>>Scotland would be rather odd, considering Scotrail is separately
>>governed from Holyrood. And Wales almost as much from Cardiff.
>>
>>If the objective is to have something near the "centre of gravity" of
>>the railway system, I hate to say it but Milton Keynes isn't that far
>>off.
>
>Indeed yes, although that calls into question the accuracy of the name
>"Great *British* Railways".
>
>It should be Great English Railways.

It has to be a derivative of "British Rail", just to channel the
nostalgia for a golden past which never existed.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ta8ha2$l941$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:02:42 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ta6l2n$clot$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:54:47 on Thu, 7 Jul
>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 07/07/2022 09:24, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta64nu$av6p$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:58 on Thu, 7 Jul
>>>> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 07/07/2022 09:02, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> With six cities to choose from, it's unlikely that any will get
>>>>>>> more than
>>>>>>> 30% of the vote. So, almost certainly, the most popular will
>>>>>>> actually not
>>>>>>> be the choice of the majority who vote.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect the most import factors will be the number of people living
>>>>>> near each proposed site and campaigns in those area.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, probably. But, of course, those factors have nothing to do with
>>>>> which
>>>>> would actually be the best location for the HQ.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if they actually plan to move large numbers of NR and DfT staff
>>>>> there, or will it just be a token HQ, with most staff staying where they
>>>>> are?  If the former, a lot of experienced people will choose not to
>>>>> go, as
>>>>> already happened when NR moved to MK.
>>
>>>> Or when the BBC moved a lot of their production from London to
>>>> Mediocrity.
>>>
>>> Some might argue that BBC in London was mediocrity when it came to news
>>> coverage of events more than about 25 miles away from London.....
>>
>> It covered 'events' happening all over the world, assisted by people who
>> came into the studio to sit on the sofa and give their own perspective
>> on things. Just because London is bigger, has far better transport
>> links, and most national and international movers and shakers also
>> gravitated to London, the talent pool was huge.
>>
>> When they started saying "can you get to Salford for 7am tomorrow
>> morning" the unanimous answer was "are you kidding". They did struggle
>> on for a while using Manchester-based guests, but it simply didn't work.
>
>So you assert, but colleagues of mine have gone to Salford to be guests on
>the Breakfast programme.

One swallow doesn't make a spring. And the sofa has been pretty empty
for several years now. They did try scraping some subject experts from
the local universities, but without media training they struggled to
make their cases.

>Not everyone is a London based politician.

Nor is every international mover and shaker is a politician (and even
fewer are elected politicians).

>There’s also this thing called video link interviews from London
>studios (or from outside Parliament/Downing Street at the moment). It
>works for me as a viewer.

Yes, I was watching this morning at 7am and thinking "I wonder how many
viewers really understand the effort needed by someone like Ed Davey to
be all spruced up and briefed, on camera College Green at this hour of
the morning. Would they be up for that?

And Naga holding the fort in Salford, all alone on a massive sofa. In
effect she was the one video-linking into the programme, rather than
presenting it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ta8n6e$lpgv$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:43:10 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>> one of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>> necessarily have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>> whoever) rather than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>> political will to have a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>
>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>>> the next right wing leader.
>>
>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>> franchises?
>
>I don't think the new PM will be acting as Transport secretary as well. And
>whoever the new transport secretary is, classic franchises have gone for
>good.

I agree with you, and hence disagree that GBR is a transitory
Boris-fantasy.

>> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
>> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
>> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
>> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
>> the Treasury to veto it.
>>
>> As PM, which way would she go?
>
>She'd keep out of it. PMs have lots of much bigger things to worry about.

This is an important local issue she has campaigned about since becoming
an MP, and recently even as a Cabinet Minister. It would be noticed if
she suddenly said "sorry, it's a delusion I used to have, and isn't
going to happen, even though I'm now the one person who could make it
happen".
--
Roland Perry

On 08/07/2022 08:30, John Armstrong wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Jul 2022 09:29:44 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <m75dcht963sjhfeeehbrri543ib0cc2145@4ax.com>, at 09:11:28 on
>> Thu, 7 Jul 2022, John Armstrong <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> ....... Or anywhere at all in Scotland or Wales.
>>
>> Scotland would be rather odd, considering Scotrail is separately
>> governed from Holyrood. And Wales almost as much from Cardiff.
>>
>> If the objective is to have something near the "centre of gravity" of
>> the railway system, I hate to say it but Milton Keynes isn't that far
>> off.
>
> Indeed yes, although that calls into question the accuracy of the name
> "Great *British* Railways".
>
> It should be Great English Railways.

Kleiner Englander Bahn

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/07/2022 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
> Yes, I was watching this morning at 7am and thinking "I wonder how many
> viewers really understand the effort needed by someone like Ed Davey to
> be all spruced up and briefed, on camera College Green at this hour of
> the morning. Would they be up for that?

Davey would be spruced up and on College Green in the middle of the
night if he thought there was going to be a camera there. :-)

On 08/07/2022 08:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>
>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>  It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>> one  of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>> necessarily  have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>> whoever) rather  than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>> political will to have  a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>
>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched
>> by the next right wing leader.
>
> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
> franchises?

They will want to ditch anything that smacks of nationalisation.

>
> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
> the Treasury to veto it.
>
> As PM, which way would she go?

Whichever way the ERG tell her to.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 2022-07-08 07:33:04 +0000, Roland Perry said:

> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>
>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>> still be contracted out.
>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>> one of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>> necessarily have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>> whoever) rather than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>> political will to have a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>
>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>> the next right wing leader.
>
> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
> franchises?

Is that even possible anymore? The whole point of the GBR stuff was
that with the high risks and low rewards for running classic
franchises, they ran out of companies that actually had any interest in
bidding. When was the last classic franchise successfully let after
competitive bidding?

Robin

On 08/07/2022 09:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ta8n6e$lpgv$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:43:10 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>>> one  of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>>> necessarily  have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>>> whoever) rather  than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>>> political will to have  a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>>
>>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>>>> the next right wing leader.
>>>
>>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>>> franchises?
>>
>> I don't think the new PM will be acting as Transport secretary as
>> well. And
>> whoever the new transport secretary is, classic franchises have gone for
>> good.
>
> I agree with you, and hence disagree that GBR is a transitory
> Boris-fantasy.
>
>>> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
>>> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
>>> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
>>> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
>>> the Treasury to veto it.
>>>
>>> As PM, which way would she go?
>>
>> She'd keep out of it. PMs have lots of much bigger things to worry about.
>
> This is an important local issue she has campaigned about since becoming
> an MP, and recently even as a Cabinet Minister. It would be noticed if
> she suddenly said "sorry, it's a delusion I used to have, and isn't
> going to happen, even though I'm now the one person who could make it
> happen".

Like her opposition to Brexit?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 08/07/2022 09:18, MB wrote:
> On 08/07/2022 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Yes, I was watching this morning at 7am and thinking "I wonder how many
>> viewers really understand the effort needed by someone like Ed Davey to
>> be all spruced up and briefed, on camera College Green at this hour of
>> the morning. Would they be up for that?
>
> Davey would be spruced up and on College Green in the middle of the
> night if he thought there was going to be a camera there.  :-)

So would every other politician. Having done the College Green camera on
occasion at very odd times, it's amusing how many MPs are suddenly
available when the red light goes on.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ta8mug$lom1$3@dont-email.me>, at 07:38:56 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>
>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>
>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
>>> of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
>>> have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
>>> than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
>>> a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>
>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>> the next right wing leader.
>
>What's in danger is HS2. Johnson loves big, expensive infrastructure
>projects, but most right-wing Tories don't. I bet several of his potential
>successors would happily either cancel HS2 altogether,

The sunk cost is already so large that cancelling it would be a brave
decision. I suppose they could rent out the tunnels under the Chilterns
as wedding reception venues?

>or cut it back further.

I could see it being simply a London-Birmingham shuttle. And can they
deliver on their promise that it wouldn't be a premium fare (like they
introduced on HS1).

>GBR won't be cancelled, but might find it has to make do with a reduced
>budget. Potential reopening projects will probably be deferred
>indefinitely.

And new build too. I wouldn't bet on Cambridge South ever happening, and
relocating Waterbeach a mile and a half north to appease potential
buyers of the 4,500 homes there has recently had to be rescued by the
local councils underwriting it, after the developer reneged on their
commitment to fund it (less than £1k per house).

Apparently a study regarding a bus/cycle way to the existing station
concluded that it wasn't going to fly.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/07/2022 09:20, Bob wrote:
> On 2022-07-08 07:33:04 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>
>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>> one  of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>> necessarily  have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>> whoever) rather  than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>> political will to have  a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>
>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched
>>> by the next right wing leader.
>>
>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>> franchises?
>
> Is that even possible anymore?  The whole point of the GBR stuff was
> that with the high risks and low rewards for running classic franchises,
> they ran out of companies that actually had any interest in bidding.
> When was the last classic franchise successfully let after competitive
> bidding?
>

I suspect they will be looking at a London Bus style operation, which is
what they effectively have now. Expensive rebranding and relocating
exercises can safely be ditched as an easy way of demonstrating how they
are saving money.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ta8n6e$lpgv$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:43:10 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>>> one of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>>> necessarily have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>>> whoever) rather than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>>> political will to have a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>>
>>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched by
>>>> the next right wing leader.
>>>
>>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>>> franchises?
>>
>> I don't think the new PM will be acting as Transport secretary as well. And
>> whoever the new transport secretary is, classic franchises have gone for
>> good.
>
> I agree with you, and hence disagree that GBR is a transitory
> Boris-fantasy.
>
>>> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
>>> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
>>> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
>>> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
>>> the Treasury to veto it.
>>>
>>> As PM, which way would she go?
>>
>> She'd keep out of it. PMs have lots of much bigger things to worry about.
>
> This is an important local issue she has campaigned about since becoming
> an MP, and recently even as a Cabinet Minister. It would be noticed if
> she suddenly said "sorry, it's a delusion I used to have, and isn't
> going to happen, even though I'm now the one person who could make it
> happen".

As PM, she would keep out decisions about minor local projects, whether in
her constituency or not. It's *because* she could make it happen that she
wouldn't interfere.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/07/2022 08:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>
>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>>  It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>> one  of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>> necessarily  have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>> whoever) rather  than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>> political will to have  a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>
>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched
>>> by the next right wing leader.
>>
>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>> franchises?
>
> They will want to ditch anything that smacks of nationalisation.

On railways, the aim will be simply to cut the subsidies. So, expect
thinned-out services and non-essential enhancements slashed.

>
>>
>> In a sense I'd like Liz Truss to win, just because as a nearby
>> constituency MP she's been a vigorous campaigner for the Ely North
>> improvements. But the leaks the last couple of weeks have been that
>> Network Rail gold-plating the project to an estimated £450m has caused
>> the Treasury to veto it.
>>
>> As PM, which way would she go?
>
> Whichever way the ERG tell her to.
>

I doubt that the ERG has a policy on railways, other than to spend less on
them.

In message <ta8muf$lom1$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:38:55 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> remarked:
>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>> trains are run by son-of OLR.
>>>
>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>> still be contracted out.
>>
>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was one
>> of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't necessarily
>> have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or whoever) rather
>> than people you hire permanently now there's the political will to have
>> a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>
>Surely timetabling was already done by NR? Why would that change?

Timetabling is "done" (whatever that means) by NR, but as a result of
lobbying by the TOCs for paths.

The whole point of the Fat Controller (aka GBR) which you have
apparently stunningly missed, is that the lobbying ceases because
the ambitions of the former-TOCs is also within the remit of the FC,
and not the former bus operators who now only have to do day to day
operational tasks like find sufficient drivers, and on-train
litter-pickers.

Rather than worry about which stations to serve, and how frequently,
with what-length what-class trains, and quite likely no longer have to
run balkanised ticketing/marketing websites.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/07/2022 09:20, Bob wrote:
>> On 2022-07-08 07:33:04 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <ta8li2$lk1f$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:15:14 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 08/07/2022 05:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <QdOdnRW-O-1qiVr_nZ2dnUU7-c2dnZ2d@brightview.co.uk>, at
>>>>> 18:16:39 on Thu, 7 Jul 2022, Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On 07/07/2022 11:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Would make sense to bring them in-house if eventually almost all
>>>>>>> trains  are run by son-of OLR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The (current) plan is that operations - in England at least - would
>>>>>> still be contracted out.
>>>>> It's the strategy I'm more concerned about. Obviously you can still
>>>>> contract out cleaning the station toilets to a local firm (and
>>>>> refurbishing my local station is being done by contractors, not even
>>>>> Network Rail themselves) but co-ordinating the timetables- which was
>>>>> one  of the main triggers for this change in policy - doesn't
>>>>> necessarily  have to be done by £2k/day consultants from Atkins (or
>>>>> whoever) rather  than people you hire permanently now there's the
>>>>> political will to have  a Fat Controller (and his entourage) in post.
>>>>
>>>> Is there still? GBR is anther Boris fantasy that may well be ditched
>>>> by the next right wing leader.
>>>
>>> While it's likely Shapps will lose his job in the impending reshuffle,
>>> you think the next PM will do a U-turn and restart issuing classic
>>> franchises?
>>
>> Is that even possible anymore?  The whole point of the GBR stuff was
>> that with the high risks and low rewards for running classic franchises,
>> they ran out of companies that actually had any interest in bidding.
>> When was the last classic franchise successfully let after competitive
>> bidding?
>>
>
> I suspect they will be looking at a London Bus style operation, which is
> what they effectively have now.

Yes, that's already the way it was heading, and that won't change.

> Expensive rebranding and relocating
> exercises can safely be ditched as an easy way of demonstrating how they
> are saving money.

I think GBR is very much a Shapps project. It may continue after him, but
much more low key. The new organisations will probably be instructed to cut
costs wherever possible (fewer staff, reduced enhancement projects, reduced
services).

I think one area of vulnerability is the whole Green agenda. This was
imposed on Boris (who never previously showed any interest in it) by
Carrie, and a more right-wing new PM might want to see less spent on
projects like electrification.

In message <ta8p7r$lv0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:18:03 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 08/07/2022 08:41, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Yes, I was watching this morning at 7am and thinking "I wonder how many
>> viewers really understand the effort needed by someone like Ed Davey to
>> be all spruced up and briefed, on camera College Green at this hour of
>> the morning. Would they be up for that?
>
>Davey would be spruced up and on College Green in the middle of the
>night if he thought there was going to be a camera there. :-)

It's still more effort than the average viewer would go to, as part of
their day-job.

Back in the day, if the house phone rang at 7am it was *always* a
researcher for one or other TV/Radio station asking "can you [mainly
my wife] get to our studio in half an hour".

Turning up with a satellite uplink van outside the house required a few
hours more notice, but did happen from time to time (and was more likely
to be ITV than BBC).
--
Roland Perry