Wot, no 5G?

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>Wot, no 5G?
>
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>

Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
proprietary Airwave).

Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
effect.
--
Roland Perry

On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>Wot, no 5G?
>>
>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>
> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
> proprietary Airwave).
>
> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
> effect.

TETRA isn't proprietary
And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.

On 8 Jul 2022 09:50, Graeme Wall wrote:
> Wot, no 5G?
>
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
> --

5G will come. As the article says, BAI will do 4G and 5G, but, at the
moment, the spectrum is still being freed up (vide Forces TV) and the
vast majority of handsets don't do 5G

Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> On 8 Jul 2022 09:50, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> Wot, no 5G?
>>
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>> --
>
> 5G will come. As the article says, BAI will do 4G and 5G, but, at the
> moment, the spectrum is still being freed up (vide Forces TV) and the
> vast majority of handsets don't do 5G
>
>

I’m surprised Charing Cross isn’t on the list. I saw the equipment boxes in
one of the ventilation tunnels on a recent Hidden London tour. I suppose it
will come soon.

In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>>Wot, no 5G?
>>>
>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>
>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>> proprietary Airwave).
>>
>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>> effect.
>
>TETRA isn't proprietary

Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?

>And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.

No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
service to the public can be offered.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>
>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>
>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>> effect.
>>
>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>
> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>
Here

https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radio/

But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.

On 08/07/2022 19:37, Tweed wrote:
> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.

I seem to remember there were / are some AIRWAVE users who were only
borderline "Emergency Services" (can't remember who!) but the rules were
bent a little.

Several base stations were linked by satellite and we had a contract
covering them but I never got involved.

A friend had quite a few TETRA sets in his collection.

https://www.qsl.net/gm8aob/TETRA.htm

In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>
>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>
>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>> effect.
>>>
>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>
>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>
>Here
>
>https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>tetra-radio/

"The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
maintain the highest level of customer service, these
professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.

Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.

>But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.

Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?

That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
specific transceivers.

The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
advanced services to and from the handsets).
--
Roland Perry

On 09/07/2022 06:48, Roland Perry wrote:
> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>
> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
> specific transceivers.
>
> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
> advanced services to and from the handsets).

In that context I would think proprietary meant using protocols /
software that was licensed by a company. This tends to happen in the US
mainly. I have more experience of trunked radio systems, MPT1327 etc
are all available for anyone outside the US to use but in the US
Motorola have some sort of control over its use because all or most
rival systems are owned by them. MPT1327 systems often had equipment
from a mixture of manufacturers. The system we worked on was Nokia but
the mobile radios in vehicle were Yaesu and I think the handheld radios
were either Yaesu or Icom. That would never happen with trunked systems
in the US unless these companies paid Motorola. There was a small
British manufacturer who made small systems which were idea for many
users I think I read some US users wishing they could use there because
they were much cheaper.

I believe in Airwave-speak the radios were called "terminals" so
probably the same in the new system. Many of the radio look very
similar to mobile phones so probably just have different firmware. This
must be very useful for the police for covert use, they previously had
covert sets use in vehicles that looked like a standard car radio. I
presume that for covert use now, they just use a standard Airwave or ESN
set on handsfree. Though we were able to operate through the MPT1327
trunked system using ordinary PSTN or mobile phones.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>
>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>
>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>
>> Here
>>
>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>> tetra-radio/
>
> "The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
> and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
> maintain the highest level of customer service, these
> professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
> quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
> purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.
>
> Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.
>
>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>
> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>
> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
> specific transceivers.
>
> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
> advanced services to and from the handsets).

Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode and
handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a cell site,
or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or acting as a repeater
back to the main network. You don’t want, for example, for your firefighter
in a basement being unable to communicate because their handset can’t see a
fixed base station.

Tetra is relatively low speed, akin to 2G. So emergency workers who needed
high data rate information, such as maps or photographs found themselves
having to carry a mobile phone as well. ESN was/is supposed to fix that.
The handset to base station mode is easy, that’s just conventional 4G on
the EE physical network (but on a private network). The other bits seem to
be harder to sort out for reasons I don’t understand, and aren’t being
revealed in public.

And yes, by your definition it is propriety because EE is the sole network
provider and you can’t nip down to your corner mobile phone shop to buy a
handset.

On 09/07/2022 07:48, Tweed wrote:
> Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode and
> handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a cell site,
> or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or acting as a repeater
> back to the main network. You don’t want, for example, for your firefighter
> in a basement being unable to communicate because their handset can’t see a
> fixed base station.

I was told that Airwave did not encourage or even discouraged Direct
Mode Operation because it bypassed their charging system so they did not
get any revenue from the calls.

I thought any TETRA equipped vehicle could act as a repeater, it was
only reproducing what most police forces already had. It was common for
a plod to be able to leave his vehicle and operate through the vehicle's
radio using his handheld PR set. The system we worked on had two
handhelds in every vehicle, taking the handheld out of its charger base
would activate the repeater.

Not sure if earlier firebrigade system had Talkthrough but they used
handhelds quite a lot - there was a case with a major fire where they
did not have enough handhelds or channels so went and bought some PMR446
sets from a nearby shop!

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 09/07/2022 07:48, Tweed wrote:
>> Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode and
>> handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a cell site,
>> or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or acting as a repeater
>> back to the main network. You don’t want, for example, for your firefighter
>> in a basement being unable to communicate because their handset can’t see a
>> fixed base station.
>
> I was told that Airwave did not encourage or even discouraged Direct
> Mode Operation because it bypassed their charging system so they did not
> get any revenue from the calls.
>
> I thought any TETRA equipped vehicle could act as a repeater, it was
> only reproducing what most police forces already had. It was common for
> a plod to be able to leave his vehicle and operate through the vehicle's
> radio using his handheld PR set. The system we worked on had two
> handhelds in every vehicle, taking the handheld out of its charger base
> would activate the repeater.
>
> Not sure if earlier firebrigade system had Talkthrough but they used
> handhelds quite a lot - there was a case with a major fire where they
> did not have enough handhelds or channels so went and bought some PMR446
> sets from a nearby shop!
>

As far as I can tell, Tetra/Airwave is properly designed and works well.
Its fundamental downside is low data rates, which caused users to have to
have conventional mobile phones as well. So the bright idea was to use 4G
cellular technology and graft on the direct mode, push to talk, group
calling, local repeater etc functionality that is needed by emergency
users. That’s where it all seems to have come unstuck. The only upside for
tax payers is that it has forced EE to expand its coverage. Naturally, EE
(aka BT) will be on the end of a juicy revenue stream for years to come.

In message <tab8b1$vp9l$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:01 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>
>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>
>>> Here
>>>
>>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>>> tetra-radio/
>>
>> "The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
>> and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
>> maintain the highest level of customer service, these
>> professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
>> quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
>> purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.
>>
>> Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.
>>
>>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>
>> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
>> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>>
>> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
>> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
>> specific transceivers.
>>
>> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
>> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
>> advanced services to and from the handsets).
>
>Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode and
>handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a cell site,
>or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or acting as a repeater
>back to the main network. You don’t want, for example, for your firefighter
>in a basement being unable to communicate because their handset can’t see a
>fixed base station.
>
>Tetra is relatively low speed, akin to 2G. So emergency workers who needed
>high data rate information, such as maps or photographs found themselves
>having to carry a mobile phone as well. ESN was/is supposed to fix that.
>The handset to base station mode is easy, that’s just conventional 4G on
>the EE physical network (but on a private network). The other bits seem to
>be harder to sort out for reasons I don’t understand, and aren’t being
>revealed in public.
>
>And yes, by your definition it

"It" being what - the old tetra system, or the replacement 4G system?

>is propriety because EE is the sole network provider and you can’t
>nip down to your corner mobile phone shop to buy a handset.

I buy almost all my handsets on ebay.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <tab8b1$vp9l$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:01 on Sat, 9 Jul
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>>
>>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>>
>>>> Here
>>>>
>>>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>>>> tetra-radio/
>>>
>>> "The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
>>> and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
>>> maintain the highest level of customer service, these
>>> professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
>>> quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
>>> purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.
>>>
>>> Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.
>>>
>>>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>>
>>> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
>>> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>>>
>>> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
>>> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
>>> specific transceivers.
>>>
>>> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
>>> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
>>> advanced services to and from the handsets).
>>
>> Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode and
>> handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a cell site,
>> or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or acting as a repeater
>> back to the main network. You don’t want, for example, for your firefighter
>> in a basement being unable to communicate because their handset can’t see a
>> fixed base station.
>>
>> Tetra is relatively low speed, akin to 2G. So emergency workers who needed
>> high data rate information, such as maps or photographs found themselves
>> having to carry a mobile phone as well. ESN was/is supposed to fix that.
>> The handset to base station mode is easy, that’s just conventional 4G on
>> the EE physical network (but on a private network). The other bits seem to
>> be harder to sort out for reasons I don’t understand, and aren’t being
>> revealed in public.
>>
>> And yes, by your definition it
>
> "It" being what - the old tetra system, or the replacement 4G system?
>
>> is propriety because EE is the sole network provider and you can’t
>> nip down to your corner mobile phone shop to buy a handset.
>
> I buy almost all my handsets on ebay.

Both are proprietary by your definition, but the old Airwave system is
actually built on standards, unlike its replacement.

(There was fleetingly a commercial Tetra based system called Dolphin, but
it didn’t survive as it didn’t really do anything significantly more useful
that a standard mobile phone could not do

http://distantsignalradio.blogspot.com/2016/02/dolphin-tetra-network.html )

You are probably more likely to find a nicked handset on eBay than be able
to buy one at a mobile phone shop.

In message <tabu4c$11njd$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:57 on Sat, 9 Jul
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tab8b1$vp9l$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:01 on Sat, 9 Jul
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Here
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>>>>> tetra-radio/
>>>>
>>>> "The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
>>>> and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
>>>> maintain the highest level of customer service, these
>>>> professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
>>>> quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
>>>> purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.
>>>>
>>>> Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.
>>>>
>>>>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>>>
>>>> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
>>>> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>>>>
>>>> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
>>>> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
>>>> specific transceivers.
>>>>
>>>> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
>>>> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
>>>> advanced services to and from the handsets).
>>>
>>> Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode
>>>and handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a
>>>cell site, or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or
>>>acting as a repeater back to the main network. You don’t want, for
>>>example, for your firefighter in a basement being unable to
>>>communicate because their handset can’t see a fixed base station.
>>>
>>> Tetra is relatively low speed, akin to 2G. So emergency workers who needed
>>> high data rate information, such as maps or photographs found themselves
>>> having to carry a mobile phone as well. ESN was/is supposed to fix that.
>>> The handset to base station mode is easy, that’s just conventional 4G on
>>> the EE physical network (but on a private network). The other bits seem to
>>> be harder to sort out for reasons I don’t understand, and aren’t being
>>> revealed in public.
>>>
>>> And yes, by your definition it
>>
>> "It" being what - the old tetra system, or the replacement 4G system?
>>
>>> is propriety because EE is the sole network provider and you can’t
>>> nip down to your corner mobile phone shop to buy a handset.
>>
>> I buy almost all my handsets on ebay.
>
>Both are proprietary by your definition,

4G proprietary despite all the ETSI (or whatever) specs?

>You are probably more likely to find a nicked handset on eBay than be able
>to buy one at a mobile phone shop.

I suspect most BNIB handset are unwanted free upgrades by the network.
Although sometimes you get genuine "clearance" items direct from a
warehouse.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <tabu4c$11njd$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:59:57 on Sat, 9 Jul
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tab8b1$vp9l$1@dont-email.me>, at 06:48:01 on Sat, 9 Jul
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta9th6$pkjl$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:37:26 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-
>>>>>> tetra-radio/
>>>>>
>>>>> "The communication needs of customer-facing staff, executives
>>>>> and senior officers are driven by style, as well as function. To
>>>>> maintain the highest level of customer service, these
>>>>> professionals need an intuitive digital radio that delivers high
>>>>> quality audio, blends seamlessly with their image and whose
>>>>> purpose is increasing productivity, not providing entertainment.
>>>>>
>>>>> Boggle. They need style, but apparently not in an entertaining way.
>>>>>
>>>>>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>>>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>>>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>>>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they used as essentially fancy walkie-talkies, or do they require a
>>>>> subscription to a network of base stations, and who sells that?
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the sense in which I used the word "proprietary", in that I doubt
>>>>> there are competing such networks, nor do they work with other than very
>>>>> specific transceivers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The whole point of migrating the Emergency Services to 4G is to rid
>>>>> ourselves of that monopoly (as well as quite likely facilitating more
>>>>> advanced services to and from the handsets).
>>>>
>>>> Tetra and the replacement ESN act both in handset to handset mode
>>>> and handset to base station. The base station can be fixed, as per a
>>>> cell site, or can be a vehicle providing a local island and/or
>>>> acting as a repeater back to the main network. You don’t want, for
>>>> example, for your firefighter in a basement being unable to
>>>> communicate because their handset can’t see a fixed base station.
>>>>
>>>> Tetra is relatively low speed, akin to 2G. So emergency workers who needed
>>>> high data rate information, such as maps or photographs found themselves
>>>> having to carry a mobile phone as well. ESN was/is supposed to fix that.
>>>> The handset to base station mode is easy, that’s just conventional 4G on
>>>> the EE physical network (but on a private network). The other bits seem to
>>>> be harder to sort out for reasons I don’t understand, and aren’t being
>>>> revealed in public.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, by your definition it
>>>
>>> "It" being what - the old tetra system, or the replacement 4G system?
>>>
>>>> is propriety because EE is the sole network provider and you can’t
>>>> nip down to your corner mobile phone shop to buy a handset.
>>>
>>> I buy almost all my handsets on ebay.
>>
>> Both are proprietary by your definition,
>
> 4G proprietary despite all the ETSI (or whatever) specs?
>
>> You are probably more likely to find a nicked handset on eBay than be able
>> to buy one at a mobile phone shop.
>
> I suspect most BNIB handset are unwanted free upgrades by the network.
> Although sometimes you get genuine "clearance" items direct from a
> warehouse.
>

The 4G *based* emergency service network isn’t standards based. They’ve
been dreaming up the additional functionality as they go along. I don’t
think we’ve even got an export market for it.

On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 18:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>
>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>
>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>> effect.
>>>
>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>
>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>
>Here
>
>https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radio/
>
>But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>
The BRC ceased first aid services a year or two ago with many of those
involved transferring to St John Ambulance. Any Airwave radios at
events are normally sourced from the stocks of the statutory emergency
services as the licensing cost makes them too expensive for routine
use.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2022 18:37:26 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>
>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>
>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>
>> Here
>>
>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radio/
>>
>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>
> The BRC ceased first aid services a year or two ago with many of those
> involved transferring to St John Ambulance. Any Airwave radios at
> events are normally sourced from the stocks of the statutory emergency
> services as the licensing cost makes them too expensive for routine
> use.
>

I’d forgotten that the red cross had given up doing event first aid. My son
did it prior to med school. They had a good bunch of people doing it.

On 8 Jul 2022 19:07, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>Wot, no 5G?
>>>>
>>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>
>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>
>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>> effect.
>>
>>TETRA isn't proprietary
>
> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?

That isn't about the standard or the technology. That is a market
thing. And don't forget Dolphin.

>>And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.
>
> No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
> service to the public can be offered.

But that isn't about proprietary or not. The APB 5G network won't be
open to consumers but the technology isn't closed.

In message <jivpjpFeko5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:56:56 on Sun, 10
Jul 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>On 8 Jul 2022 19:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>
>>>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>
>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>
>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>> effect.
>>>
>>>TETRA isn't proprietary
>>
>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>
>That isn't about the standard or the technology. That is a market
>thing. And don't forget Dolphin.
>
>>>And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.
>>
>> No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
>> service to the public can be offered.
>
>But that isn't about proprietary or not. The APB 5G network won't be
>open to consumers but the technology isn't closed.

I don't recognise APB, but despite that, is someone building an entire
5G network that won't also be available to consumers via a distinct and
different sales channel?

That's where projects to get coverage in the tube have been, the
investment for emergency-service-only access being too high, so they
have to sell bandwidth to ordinary consumers in parallel.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/07/2022 11:53, Tweed wrote:
> As far as I can tell, Tetra/Airwave is properly designed and works well.
> Its fundamental downside is low data rates, which caused users to have to
> have conventional mobile phones as well.

There was a lot "spin" when TETRA was chosen. Pictures of police
officers with video camera on their helmet etc. And claims that police
would be able to travel across to Europe and use their police Tetra
networks - I asked a ex-police friend about that (he used to often
travel abroad because of the nature of his police work. He said they
normally did not even contact the local police because they did not
trust them!

On 09/07/2022 18:34, Charles Ellson wrote:
> The BRC ceased first aid services a year or two ago with many of those
> involved transferring to St John Ambulance. Any Airwave radios at
> events are normally sourced from the stocks of the statutory emergency
> services as the licensing cost makes them too expensive for routine
> use.

Do they not still have vehicles etc for use during major incidents. I
used to see several parked up near their office in Inverness and I read
once that they had a hovercraft based in the area. Presumably they have
comms though, as suggested, it could be supplied as needed.

On 09/07/2022 18:46, Tweed wrote:
> I’d forgotten that the red cross had given up doing event first aid. My son
> did it prior to med school. They had a good bunch of people doing it.

My ex-police friend told me that on some operations they used to have an
NHS ambulance on standby then they started being charged but if there
was a call then the ambulance would disappear! So they started using
the military who would send a couple of medics with one of their own
ambulances.

On Sun, 10 Jul 2022 13:25:57 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 09/07/2022 18:34, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> The BRC ceased first aid services a year or two ago with many of those
>> involved transferring to St John Ambulance. Any Airwave radios at
>> events are normally sourced from the stocks of the statutory emergency
>> services as the licensing cost makes them too expensive for routine
>> use.
>
>Do they not still have vehicles etc for use during major incidents. I
>used to see several parked up near their office in Inverness and I read
>once that they had a hovercraft based in the area. Presumably they have
>comms though, as suggested, it could be supplied as needed.
>
Those are presumably for something other than event first aid such as
e.g. assisting mountain rescue. It was only event first aid services
ceased by the BRC:-
https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/news-and-media/media-centre/press-releases/event-first-aid-statement
not first aid training or any ambulance or welfare work that they
might be involved in.
https://www.redcross.org.uk/about-us/what-we-do/uk-emergency-response

Inverness seems to have one location for first aid training (i.e.
courses for public and workplace first aid) and another for "Options
for Independence" which supports disabled people.