On 10 Jul 2022 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <jivpjpFeko5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:56:56 on Sun, 10
> Jul 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>On 8 Jul 2022 19:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>
>>>>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>
>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>> effect.
>>>>
>>>>TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>
>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>
>>That isn't about the standard or the technology. That is a market
>>thing. And don't forget Dolphin.
>>
>>>>And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
>>> service to the public can be offered.
>>
>>But that isn't about proprietary or not. The APB 5G network won't be
>>open to consumers but the technology isn't closed.
>
> I don't recognise APB, but despite that, is someone building an entire
> 5G network that won't also be available to consumers via a distinct and
> different sales channel?
>

Sorry. Typo. ABP - Associated British Ports.
And, yes, there are multi-site 5G networks being built that are private.
And don't forget DCC

> That's where projects to get coverage in the tube have been, the
> investment for emergency-service-only access being too high, so they
> have to sell bandwidth to ordinary consumers in parallel.

There are already mechanisms to get Airwave coverage in underground
locations.

Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2022 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <jivpjpFeko5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:56:56 on Sun, 10
>> Jul 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>> On 8 Jul 2022 19:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>
>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>
>>> That isn't about the standard or the technology. That is a market
>>> thing. And don't forget Dolphin.
>>>
>>>>> And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
>>>> service to the public can be offered.
>>>
>>> But that isn't about proprietary or not. The APB 5G network won't be
>>> open to consumers but the technology isn't closed.
>>
>> I don't recognise APB, but despite that, is someone building an entire
>> 5G network that won't also be available to consumers via a distinct and
>> different sales channel?
>>
>
> Sorry. Typo. ABP - Associated British Ports.
> And, yes, there are multi-site 5G networks being built that are private.
> And don't forget DCC
>
>> That's where projects to get coverage in the tube have been, the
>> investment for emergency-service-only access being too high, so they
>> have to sell bandwidth to ordinary consumers in parallel.
>
> There are already mechanisms to get Airwave coverage in underground
> locations.
>
>

There are, but wasn’t one of the issues raised in the aftermath of the Tube
bombings the failure of underground radio comms?

In message <jj0doqFhqkaU1@mid.individual.net>, at 17:40:57 on Sun, 10
Jul 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>On 10 Jul 2022 13:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <jivpjpFeko5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:56:56 on Sun, 10
>> Jul 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>On 8 Jul 2022 19:07, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Wot, no 5G?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-62090598>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Presumably because the 4G rollout policy is part of the long forgotten
>>>>>> and scandalously late and over-budget Home Office project to re-equip
>>>>>> the emergency services with 4G phones (rather than the former
>>>>>> proprietary Airwave).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Punters being able to use the same infrastructure is merely a side
>>>>>> effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>TETRA isn't proprietary
>>>>
>>>> Where can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>
>>>That isn't about the standard or the technology. That is a market
>>>thing. And don't forget Dolphin.
>>>
>>>>>And ESN won't be any more open than Airwave as far as I can tell.
>>>>
>>>> No, but to support it there has to be a 4G network, on which parallel
>>>> service to the public can be offered.
>>>
>>>But that isn't about proprietary or not. The APB 5G network won't be
>>>open to consumers but the technology isn't closed.
>>
>> I don't recognise APB, but despite that, is someone building an entire
>> 5G network that won't also be available to consumers via a distinct and
>> different sales channel?
>
>Sorry. Typo. ABP - Associated British Ports.

Unless it also covers at least the roads and railways in between the
ports, I wouldn't really call it a "network".

>And, yes, there are multi-site 5G networks being built that are private.

The issue here is "would they seek to recoup some of their installation
and operating costs by offering a piggy-backed public service".

>And don't forget DCC

Wouldn't that struggle to support video calls?

>> That's where projects to get coverage in the tube have been, the
>> investment for emergency-service-only access being too high, so they
>> have to sell bandwidth to ordinary consumers in parallel.
>
>There are already mechanisms to get Airwave coverage in underground
>locations.

They are trying to replace Airwave, so it's the successor which might or
mignt not be available for piggy-backed public use.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/07/2022 19:37, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
here can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>
> Here
>
> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radio/
>
> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>

There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
there are a couple of repeaters too.

Peter (Stroud, Glos)

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 14:09:42 +0100, Dudbridge Donkey
<junk@broadband2k.plus.com> wrote:

>On 08/07/2022 19:37, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>here can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>
>> Here
>>
>> https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radio/
>>
>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>
>
>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>
Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
services use loaned sets.

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 17:31:46 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 14:09:42 +0100, Dudbridge Donkey
><junk@broadband2k.plus.com> wrote:
>
>>On 08/07/2022 19:37, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>here can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>
>>> Here
>>>
>>>
>https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radi
>o/
>>>
>>> But consumer doesn�t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>>
>>
>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>
>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>services use loaned sets.

You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:

https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/

On Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:05:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 17:31:46 +0100
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 14:09:42 +0100, Dudbridge Donkey
>><junk@broadband2k.plus.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On 08/07/2022 19:37, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <jir6apFml9kU1@mid.individual.net>, at 18:03:21 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>> 2022, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 8 Jul 2022 10:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ta8r53$m5iu$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:43 on Fri, 8 Jul
>>>>>>> 2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>here can I buy a Tetra phone, as a consumer?
>>>>>
>>>> Here
>>>>
>>>>
>>https://www.radiocoms.co.uk/products/motorola-solutions-st7000-small-tetra-radi
>>o/
>>>>
>>>> But consumer doesn’t mean any bloke off the street. The system is not
>>>> licensed for non emergency service use, so who can buy is restricted. For
>>>> example, the British Red Cross use Tetra radios when covering events like
>>>> the Great North Run, so you could classify them as a consumer.
>>>>
>>>
>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>
>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>services use loaned sets.
>
>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>
>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>
The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
use by police and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a
"police radio".

In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>
>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>services use loaned sets.
>>
>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>
>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>
>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>use by police

Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?

>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>radio".

Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
were CB radios.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:39:15 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
>Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>>
>>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>>services use loaned sets.
>>>
>>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>>
>>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>>
>>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>>use by police
>
>Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
>for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?
>
>>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>>radio".
>
>Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
>were CB radios.

Handheld CBs tended not to be popular or very good due to having to attach
a usable shortwave antenna onto them.

In message <tam0uh$1f39$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:49:21 on Wed, 13 Jul
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:39:15 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
>>Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>
>>>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>>>services use loaned sets.
>>>>
>>>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>>>
>>>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>>>
>>>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>>>use by police
>>
>>Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
>>for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?
>>
>>>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>>>radio".
>>
>>Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
>>were CB radios.
>
>Handheld CBs tended not to be popular or very good due to having to attach
>a usable shortwave antenna onto them.

I've got a pair, and they have a built-in telescopic aerial (admittedly
rather long!) Never used them because they are for a South African CB
band.
--
Roland Perry

On 12/07/2022 16:49, Charles Ellson wrote:
> The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
> use by police and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a
> "police radio".

They are just sold off like other surplus equipment, I presume they are
like mobile phones that have no SIM card. The encryption will be removed
or trashed.

Though not impossible some slip through but they should be easily traced.

Some years ago there were some digital encrypted radios on the surplus
market. I heard of one person who had a visit from two men in suits who
wanted to know where he got his from. He named the company that
disposes of most MOD surplus equipment, of course they had never heard
of it!

It was suspected that they might have been supplied to Iraq after its
"liberation" then replaced by more secure equipment.

On 13/07/2022 09:39, Roland Perry wrote:
> Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
> were CB radios.

If they listened to some of the police then they would be convinced they
were CB radios!

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:39:15 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
>Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>
>>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>>
>>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>>services use loaned sets.
>>>
>>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>>
>>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>>
>>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>>use by police
>
>Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
>for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?
>
LU is one of the largest users of Tetra but that probably doesn't bar
some initial lack of coordination. Tube lines/stations involve the
same difficulties that would be experienced with e.g. basements or
caves but are more likely to have the necessary technology installed.

>>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>>radio".
>
>Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
>were CB radios.
>
Radios of similar appearance are/were more commonly those used for PMR
not UHF CB.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 14:35:33 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 12/07/2022 16:49, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>> use by police and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a
>> "police radio".
>
>They are just sold off like other surplus equipment, I presume they are
>like mobile phones that have no SIM card. The encryption will be removed
>or trashed.
>
Not always but without the correct details of what to key in they are
in practice only usable for unencrypted use.

>Though not impossible some slip through but they should be easily traced.
>
You get an icon on the display if the encryption is still installed
plus associated files on the set.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S6be2ioCAE

>Some years ago there were some digital encrypted radios on the surplus
>market. I heard of one person who had a visit from two men in suits who
>wanted to know where he got his from. He named the company that
>disposes of most MOD surplus equipment, of course they had never heard
>of it!
>
>It was suspected that they might have been supplied to Iraq after its
>"liberation" then replaced by more secure equipment.
>
IIRC most legitimate sales are of ex-US military sets, suggesting
either that they get compulsorily "retired" after a set time period or
that they are serviceable but no longer within military spec.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:33:31 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <tam0uh$1f39$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:49:21 on Wed, 13 Jul
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:39:15 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
>>>Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>>>>services use loaned sets.
>>>>>
>>>>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>>>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>>>>
>>>>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>>>>
>>>>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>>>>use by police
>>>
>>>Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
>>>for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?
>>>
>>>>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>>>>radio".
>>>
>>>Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
>>>were CB radios.
>>
>>Handheld CBs tended not to be popular or very good due to having to attach
>>a usable shortwave antenna onto them.
>
>I've got a pair, and they have a built-in telescopic aerial (admittedly
>rather long!) Never used them because they are for a South African CB
>band.

Telescopics have an unfortunate tendency to break because even the most
careful owner will drop a handheld at some point.

Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
29Mhz).

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 10:33:31 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tam0uh$1f39$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 08:49:21 on Wed, 13 Jul
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:39:15 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <tn5rch5ssnhej85d6n09ct9j2ld022vttl@4ax.com>, at 16:49:49 on
>>>>Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>There are quite a few Radio Amateurs who have TETRA radios. I believe
>>>>>>>>there are a couple of repeaters too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Freely available (although occasionally of dubious origin) but the
>>>>>>>ones used by emergency services have the expensive component of the
>>>>>>>Airwave encryption installed on them, the reason that the voluntary
>>>>>>>services use loaned sets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You can buy an FM broadcast transmitter off the shelf with no questions
>>>>>>asked so hardly surprising Tetras are for sale too:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://radioactive.org.uk/product-category/radio/transmitters-radio/
>>>>>>
>>>>>The surprise tends to be for those who think Tetra sets are purely for
>>>>>use by police
>>>>
>>>>Isn't one of the main drawbacks of Airwave the not very useful coverage
>>>>for the *Fire brigade* in places such as the London tube?
>>>>
>>>>>and who pre-Tetra tended to think any handheld set was a "police
>>>>>radio".
>>>>
>>>>Haven't come across that. I'd have more expected people to assume they
>>>>were CB radios.
>>>
>>>Handheld CBs tended not to be popular or very good due to having to attach
>>>a usable shortwave antenna onto them.
>>
>>I've got a pair, and they have a built-in telescopic aerial (admittedly
>>rather long!) Never used them because they are for a South African CB
>>band.
>
>Telescopics have an unfortunate tendency to break because even the most
>careful owner will drop a handheld at some point.
>
>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>29Mhz).
>
Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
arrangements.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions

CB radios don't use 29MHz.

The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/

SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0022/84406/citizens-band.pdf

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:33:48 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>29Mhz).
>>
>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>arrangements.

Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations. They're
not going to be sending the blues and twos out for some guy using an import
CB.

>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-
>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions
>
>CB radios don't use 29MHz.

South African ones apparently do.

>The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
>https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/
>
>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.

Some of the channels. There are 80 including CEPT and they go up to 28Mhz.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:24:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:33:48 +0100
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>>29Mhz).
>>>
>>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>>arrangements.
>
>Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations.
>
There aren't a lot left now, thanks to the internet and greater
availability of localised licences.

>They're
>not going to be sending the blues and twos out for some guy using an import
>CB.
>
>>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-
>>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions
>>
>>CB radios don't use 29MHz.
>
>South African ones apparently do.
>
>>The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
>>https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/
>>
>>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.
>
>Some of the channels. There are 80 including CEPT and they go up to 28Mhz.
>
But avoiding specifically excluded frequencies. The allocation is not
continuous and-
"Responsibility for granting permissions to use frequencies in this
Allocation rests with Defence. All frequency permissions are reserved
exclusively for Defence use except where assignments for Civil use are
agreed with Ofcom." [OFCOM - UK Frequency Allocation Table]
Using a foreign CB radio in the wrong location could invite official
"attention" that would not arise in other areas.

In message <tamrkl$1sjq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:24:53 on Wed, 13 Jul
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>>29Mhz).
>>>
>>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>>arrangements.
>
>Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations. They're
>not going to be sending the blues and twos out for some guy using an import
>CB.

And they don't have any batteries in them.

<https://www.rigpix.com/cbfreeband/tokai_2015a.htm>

>>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-
>>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions
>>
>>CB radios don't use 29MHz.
>
>South African ones apparently do.

29.710 to 29.985 MHz

These sets (which I bought in a UK house-clearance job-lot) don't
actually say they are South African, and only have one set of Xtals
in them.

>>The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
>>https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/
>>
>>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.

There's a six-way switch and six pairs of Xtal sockets. Inside is one
pair: 29.405 MHz and 29.860 Mhz (thus 455KHz apart). 29.860 would be
their Channel 13.

That's in a UK Amateur band assigned to "FM Repeater outputs".
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 20:00:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tamrkl$1sjq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:24:53 on Wed, 13 Jul
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>>>29Mhz).
>>>>
>>>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>>>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>>>arrangements.
>>
>>Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations. They're
>>not going to be sending the blues and twos out for some guy using an import
>>CB.
>
>And they don't have any batteries in them.
>
Usually a safe defence especially if you can't the right battery any
more.

> <https://www.rigpix.com/cbfreeband/tokai_2015a.htm>
>
And probably too old to come within the scope of the next bit.

Maybe some "historic" value? ;-)

>>>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-
>>>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions
>>>
>>>CB radios don't use 29MHz.
>>
>>South African ones apparently do.
>
>29.710 to 29.985 MHz
>
>These sets (which I bought in a UK house-clearance job-lot) don't
>actually say they are South African, and only have one set of Xtals
>in them.
>
>>>The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
>>>https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/
>>>
>>>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.
>
>There's a six-way switch and six pairs of Xtal sockets. Inside is one
>pair: 29.405 MHz and 29.860 Mhz (thus 455KHz apart). 29.860 would be
>their Channel 13.
>
>That's in a UK Amateur band assigned to "FM Repeater outputs".
>

In message <r1juch143a9po2771t7ujooj5t3rcqke0c@4ax.com>, at 23:54:45 on
Wed, 13 Jul 2022, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 20:00:18 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <tamrkl$1sjq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:24:53 on Wed, 13 Jul
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>>>>29Mhz).
>>>>>
>>>>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>>>>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>>>>arrangements.
>>>
>>>Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations. They're
>>>not going to be sending the blues and twos out for some guy using an import
>>>CB.
>>
>>And they don't have any batteries in them.
>>
>Usually a safe defence especially if you can't the right battery any
>more.

They take about a dozen AA cells each. In theory you could use
rechargeables (there's connections for a cradle-charger), but I don't
have a one other than rigging something up.

>> <https://www.rigpix.com/cbfreeband/tokai_2015a.htm>
>>
>And probably too old to come within the scope of the next bit.

I get the feeling many of the house-clearance items I used to buy
[they've dried up since before Covid] were from ex-Pats who had jobs
around the world and came home to retire. I've bagged a big collection
of Phonecards from all over the world, for example, which I date to the
mid-90's. No idea what to do with them, really, but one is quite
interesting (it has a SIM-like chip not the BT style of magstripe):

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/chip-card.jpg

>Maybe some "historic" value? ;-)

To the right buyer! There's certainly lots of collections of *photos*
online, of this kind of vintage CB set.

Although when I was out about in the late 70's/early 80's with groups of
friends we used something much smaller from the likes of Tandy.

>>>>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-pro
>>>>hibitions-
>>>>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions

3.71 Radiotelephonic transmitters

For example, citizen’s band (CB) radios, walkie-talkies, microbugs
and radio microphones.

Designed or adapted to transmit in the frequency band 26.1 to 28
MHz.

"Designed"? I suppose I could 'adapt' them by putting in slightly lower
frequency Xtals.

>>>>CB radios don't use 29MHz.
>>>
>>>South African ones apparently do.
>>
>>29.710 to 29.985 MHz
>>
>>These sets (which I bought in a UK house-clearance job-lot) don't
>>actually say they are South African, and only have one set of Xtals
>>in them.
>>
>>>>The amateur band runs from 28.0-29.7 MHz
>>>>https://rsgb.org/main/operating/band-plans/hf/28mhz/
>>>>
>>>>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.
>>
>>There's a six-way switch and six pairs of Xtal sockets. Inside is one
>>pair: 29.405 MHz and 29.860 Mhz (thus 455KHz apart). 29.860 would be
>>their Channel 13.
>>
>>That's in a UK Amateur band assigned to "FM Repeater outputs".
>>

--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 19:24:50 +0100
Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:24:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 16:33:48 +0100
>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 15:12:48 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>wrote:
>>>>Why not fire them up and see if there are any hams on that band (apparently
>>>>29Mhz).
>>>>
>>>Better not to as a SA CB radio will be illegal to use in the UK and
>>>usually illegal to possess unless imported under exceptional
>>>arrangements.
>>
>>Ofcom and plod barely give a toss about pirate FM broadcast stations.
>>
>There aren't a lot left now, thanks to the internet and greater
>availability of localised licences.

If you're ever in London have a twirl around the FM dial. You'll find loads
of them.

>>Some of the channels. There are 80 including CEPT and they go up to 28Mhz.
>>
>But avoiding specifically excluded frequencies. The allocation is not

Some of those IIRC are for radio control. Though these days they mostly seem to
use 2.4Ghz.

>continuous and-
>"Responsibility for granting permissions to use frequencies in this
>Allocation rests with Defence. All frequency permissions are reserved
>exclusively for Defence use except where assignments for Civil use are
>agreed with Ofcom." [OFCOM - UK Frequency Allocation Table]
>Using a foreign CB radio in the wrong location could invite official
>"attention" that would not arise in other areas.

Yeah, right. When did they write that, 1980? I used CB for years with high
power linear amps and AM, plus - because I had a multi band CB - often on
frequencies allowed in some euro countries but not here (Germany is particularly
generous). Never even had a knock on the door and that was 20 years ago, never
mind now.

On Wed, 13 Jul 2022 20:00:18 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <tamrkl$1sjq$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:24:53 on Wed, 13 Jul
>>>SW/HF CB in the UK operates between 26.965 and 27.76125MHz.
>
>There's a six-way switch and six pairs of Xtal sockets. Inside is one

Never heard of an Xtal socket. Whats it for?

OFCOM predecessors did have a remote monitoring capability around the
country (originally in telephone exchanges I think). It seemed to have
been replaced by a purpose design network but never seen much written
about it.

I assisted the then Radiocommunications Agency find an airband pirate.
They have difficulty because he could have been anywhere in the North of
Scotland.

We got down one area when a friend was hearing a VERY loud signal.

They put a trailer with remote controlled DF equipment in a secure site.

Coincidentally I was just reading a file sent to me yesterday about the
origins of the RSS in 1938 which of course resulted the whole Bletchley
Park operation once they realised what they were hearing!

In message <EAskW1+tQ7ziFAr3@perry.uk>, at 07:14:05 on Thu, 14 Jul 2022,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-trade-tariff-import-pro
>>>>>hibitions-
>>>>>and-restrictions/uk-trade-tariff-import-prohibitions-and-restrictions
>
> 3.71 Radiotelephonic transmitters
>
> For example, citizen’s band (CB) radios, walkie-talkies, microbugs
> and radio microphones.
>
> Designed or adapted to transmit in the frequency band 26.1 to 28
> MHz.
>
>"Designed"? I suppose I could 'adapt' them by putting in slightly lower
>frequency Xtals.

Ah, but then I'd be 'adapting' it after it was imported, so even if the
recent rule applied in general, it wouldn't in this specific case.
--
Roland Perry