On 24/07/2022 21:21, tony sayer wrote:
> Dunno, ever had the chance to sit in the control room at Madia vale with
> a big band next door;?...

Best I ever heard was a lecture theatre at Philips Gloeilampenfabrieken
in Eindhoven when I worked there one Summer.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 21:06:13 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

[...]
>And the delightful,
>
>https://www.ancientfm.com/
>
>
>stream.ancientfm.com:8058/stream

My bedside radio is more or less permanently tuned to this. I find it
an ideal accompaniment to reading a book before going to sleep.

(It probably isn't actually on FM anywhere, any more than is Asda FM,
but "FM" now seems to have become a sort of figure of speech).

Rod.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 21:21:53 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>>The musical genre is irrelevant, doesn't matter if it's just a bloke in
>>the pub with a guitar, there is nothing that can replicate live music.
>
>Well years ago QUAD for one use to demo their speakers by having someone
>taking on stage then they just stopped speaking but the sound of tape
>carried on, most all we're very impressed!
>
>Or was it B&W speakers long time ago!..

The B&W speakers I still use today are the ones I chose as a result of
hearing them (or to put it another way, not really hearing them) at
one of those hi-fi exhibitions organised by one of the magazines in a
hotel near Heathrow, some time in the early 70s.

I was looking down at the bunch of leaflets I'd collected so far, and
heard the presenter introduce himself and the equipment they were
about to demonstrate, and after I'd finished the paragraph I was
reading I looked up, expecting to see the presenter but seeing nobody
at all, just the loudspeakers. I thought, "That's really good. I must
get a pair of them", and so I did.

Rod.

On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 21:06:13 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>And the delightful,
>
>https://www.ancientfm.com/
>
>
>stream.ancientfm.com:8058/stream

Yes, that is very pleasant. Thanks for bringing it to my attention

In article <tbhecp$1fg6$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
<java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 22/07/2022 10:26, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> >
> > Been re-reading some 1970s HFN issues recently and they're very
> > different to what you'd see on news-stands now. I'd love to see many
> > of the more technical/practical items from then (and earlier)
> > reprinted in a book. As it is, you need a collection of old mags to
> > read them.

> Though you clearly have reasons for having your own collection, for
> others I will point out that, as might be expected and I recently
> proved, you can find single items or job lots of old mags available on
> eBay.

I'd recommend the issues of HFN pre the 1980s for having quite a lot of
technical info and construction projects. The obvious examples being ones
like Radford's early amps, and Jim Sugden's class A. (But change the bias
arrangements - as he did later - if you build one! 8-]) Later on, of
course, some JLH circuitry. Plus lots of DIY speakers, etc.

The explanations of how kit and systems like stereo LP, radio, etc, work
are also quite good. And kit eviewers usually knew how things worked, so
could give useful info. Not just 'wine tasting' opinions.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <9cupdhhvofdg6gc1cvur4hdvur4pl2j0uh@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> Some records (usually LPs) were released in what was called "compatible
> stereo", which had a reduced separation to create less vertical movement
> of the groove, because most mono pickup cartridges couldn't physically
> follow much vertical movement without damage. This one wouldn't have
> been compatible with a mono cartridge at all, which is what makes me
> think it might have been a test pressing.

Some also had a wider groove (i.e. cut deeper) to make life easier for mono
styli, and avoid them trashing the groove. Unfortunately, the record
companies didn't always detail what 'compatable' was supposed to mean.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Sun 24/07/2022 10:00, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <tbhecp$1fg6$1@dont-email.me>, Java Jive
> <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/07/2022 10:26, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>>>
>>> Been re-reading some 1970s HFN issues recently and they're very
>>> different to what you'd see on news-stands now. I'd love to see many
>>> of the more technical/practical items from then (and earlier)
>>> reprinted in a book. As it is, you need a collection of old mags to
>>> read them.
>
>> Though you clearly have reasons for having your own collection, for
>> others I will point out that, as might be expected and I recently
>> proved, you can find single items or job lots of old mags available on
>> eBay.
>
> I'd recommend the issues of HFN pre the 1980s for having quite a lot of
> technical info and construction projects. The obvious examples being ones
> like Radford's early amps, and Jim Sugden's class A. (But change the bias
> arrangements - as he did later - if you build one! 8-]) Later on, of
> course, some JLH circuitry. Plus lots of DIY speakers, etc.
>
> The explanations of how kit and systems like stereo LP, radio, etc, work
> are also quite good. And kit eviewers usually knew how things worked, so
> could give useful info. Not just 'wine tasting' opinions.
>

Ah yes, JLH (the best in my book), Williamson, and don't forget Stan
Curtis (of Lecson fame) and the great Doug Self!

In article <tbj20m$glgp$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 23/07/2022 09:51, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> > For classical music its application to give an illusion of the
> > 'spread' of an orchestra probably made more sense to producers as the
> > 'real thing' was laid out in space in a familiar way at concerts, and
> > the aim was to reproduce what going to a concert was like. Whereas
> > most 'pop' records were studio constructions with no real reference
> > point beyond "what sells"

> Could be said that classical producers were less inventive and just
> tried to reproduce the concert hall sound though it would be difficult
> with the limitations of the equipment - limited number of expensive
> microphones and limited number of recording channels.

(cough) You may be forgetting 'Phase 4' and its -alikes. 8-]

That said, if you can find copies of the digital transfers of the first
stereo recordings Decca and EMI made of orchestras as 'tests' some of them
are stunningly good, even by modern standards.

A problem later was that that some recording venues were 'difficult' to
extract such good stereo imaging from. The result - a la Phase 4 - tended
to be to throw more mics and channels at it and hope to sort it out later.

BTW Some of the "Chasing the Dragon" modern recordings using 'minimal'
setups are also pretty impressive. As is the "Vaughan Williams on Brass"
which I've been using recently as a test example for this:
https://www.audiomisc.co.uk/YouTube/SpotTheDifference.html
(if you look carefully on the page you can also find the PIDs for the
videos. Then choose which version to try. :-) )
Jim

> Whereas pop
> producers just set out to produce a sound experience within their
> limitations without worrying about whether it corresponded with what you
> would hear at a concert.

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <s2xYTTLhna3iFwNS@bancom.co.uk>, tony sayer
<tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

> Well years ago QUAD for one use to demo their speakers by having someone
> taking on stage then they just stopped speaking but the sound of tape
> carried on, most all we're very impressed!

> Or was it B&W speakers long time ago!..

Done on many occasions. Warfedale was another example. Their 'sand filled
baffle' speaker was quite impressive for its time. Strange that no-one
since has used that approach.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On 25/07/2022 10:15, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <tbj20m$glgp$1@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 23/07/2022 09:51, Jim Lesurf wrote:
>>> For classical music its application to give an illusion of the
>>> 'spread' of an orchestra probably made more sense to producers as the
>>> 'real thing' was laid out in space in a familiar way at concerts, and
>>> the aim was to reproduce what going to a concert was like. Whereas
>>> most 'pop' records were studio constructions with no real reference
>>> point beyond "what sells"
>
>> Could be said that classical producers were less inventive and just
>> tried to reproduce the concert hall sound though it would be difficult
>> with the limitations of the equipment - limited number of expensive
>> microphones and limited number of recording channels.
>
> (cough) You may be forgetting 'Phase 4' and its -alikes. 8-]
>
> That said, if you can find copies of the digital transfers of the first
> stereo recordings Decca and EMI made of orchestras as 'tests' some of them
> are stunningly good, even by modern standards.
>
> A problem later was that that some recording venues were 'difficult' to
> extract such good stereo imaging from. The result - a la Phase 4 - tended
> to be to throw more mics and channels at it and hope to sort it out later.
>
> BTW Some of the "Chasing the Dragon" modern recordings using 'minimal'
> setups are also pretty impressive. As is the "Vaughan Williams on Brass"
> which I've been using recently as a test example for this:
> https://www.audiomisc.co.uk/YouTube/SpotTheDifference.html
> (if you look carefully on the page you can also find the PIDs for the
> videos. Then choose which version to try. :-) )

2 small points

a. I don't know what options the RVWSoc had available but I knew a
musician who uploaded 24-bit Linear PCM. Might provide a different
(better?) baseline than an already-compressed file;

b. it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)

* "J. C. G. Lesurf
24th August 2022"

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 25/07/2022 13:23, Robin wrote:
> b.    it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)
>
> * "J. C. G. Lesurf
> 24th August 2022"

He's ahead of the rest of us; always has been.

Bill

On 25/07/2022 13:37, williamwright wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 13:23, Robin wrote:
>> b.    it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)
>>
>> * "J. C. G. Lesurf
>> 24th August 2022"
>
> He's ahead of the rest of us; always has been.
>

I'll believe that when he posts the winner of the 20:00 at Kempton on 24
August.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/07/2022 09:08 am, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 17:48:06 +0100, JNugent <jennings&co@fastmail.fm>
> wrote:
>
>> The first stereo single (this was late 1969) I bought bore no marking to
>> say it was in stereo.
>>
>> I put it onto the turntable as soon as I got it home and heard the first
>> notes come out of only one speaker. My first reaction was that a cable
>> had become disconnected. Then, a few bars later, the opposite channel
>> was filled with a drum roll. I rang a friend about it - he didn't
>> believe me.
>
> Possibly around the same time, I recall a friend playing a single
> called "Sky Pilot" that was unmistakeably stereo, as it began with a
> few bars of solo guitar not just from one side of the stereo stage,
> but sounding like one channel only, as if one of the speakers had been
> disconnected, before the rest of the instruments joined in. It was
> quite a dramatic surprise effect, unusual for pop music.
>
> The record was one of those "advance release" copies with a white
> label with a big letter A, so it could have been experimental and
> maybe the final published version was mono.
>
> Some records (usually LPs) were released in what was called
> "compatible stereo", which had a reduced separation to create less
> vertical movement of the groove, because most mono pickup cartridges
> couldn't physically follow much vertical movement without damage. This
> one wouldn't have been compatible with a mono cartridge at all, which
> is what makes me think it might have been a test pressing.
>
> My memory had the artistes as The Who, though a quick Wikipedia check
> only shows a title with that name by Eric Burdon and The Animals.
> There is no mention of it being an early example of stereo, so maybe
> the officially published version wasn't.

Issued in the UK in 1968 on a Hayes-pressed MGM-licenced EMI single:

<https://www.discogs.com/release/3381711-Eric-Burdon-The-Animals-Sky-Pilot>

I'd have thought it unlikely to have been stereo on a 45 (because of the
date). But you never know:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lroU7apzma8>

Not very good, is it?

In article <9uisdht3gt6ishif1ea7bhcge636u82bra@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
<jja@blueyonder.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 21:06:13 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>>And the delightful,
>>
>>https://www.ancientfm.com/
>>
>>
>>stream.ancientfm.com:8058/stream
>
>Yes, that is very pleasant. Thanks for bringing it to my attention

Pleasure Sir!

Many years ago my first wife lived in Long Melford in Suffolk music from
that time was a mainstay of the choral and music society at the church
there.

Plus copious amounts of beer after any practice, and sometimes pub first
rehearse in that order!.

Absolutely shameless plug for the place, the church is stunning, built
with all the wool money that area generated. Actually got married
there:)...

https://www.longmelfordchurch.com/

And just round the coroner the amazing Kentwell a stunningly beautify
set Tudor manor house very well worth a visit if you have children their
1549 re enactment days are super!, they just pretend it is that time and
you can't catch them out thy only know the history Up to that time not
after!!

https://www.kentwell.co.uk/

And to keep it all on topic!, the Sudbury TV mast is a few miles south
at Workhouse green!..

https://goo.gl/maps/pZWyN1zSfJaBZJrB7

What's not to like;?...
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

<snipped>
>Before this, and in the hands of other well-known EMI producers, the
>stereo and mono recordings were often made at the same time, capturing
>the same performance (not always), with the studio outputs feeding two
>control rooms, with one recording in 2-track stereo and the other
>recording in what was known as delta mono. Norrie Paramor (more
>correctly, his favoured engineer, Malcolm Addey) tended to use this
>method for his artistes (Cliff Richard, The Shadows, Helen Shapiro and
>others) plus his own and other orchestras. With this technique, once the
>performance was over, that was it, finito. The take was complete and
>either acceptable for release or needing to be done again.
>
>I'll... er... get me coat.

Nay lad keep thy coat!, all interesting stuff! Remember years ago a hi-
fi exhibition in London they, and buggered if i can remember who now,
may have even been EMI themselves! had a couple of BTR 2 machines used
by the Beatles and others at that time!..

https://www.abbeyroad.com/news/btr-2-gearthatmadeus-3175
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 21:42:15 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>Remember years ago a hi-
>fi exhibition in London they, and buggered if i can remember who now,
>may have even been EMI themselves! had a couple of BTR 2 machines used
>by the Beatles and others at that time!..

One of the practical sessions in my first television training course
at BBC Wood Norton was to line up a BTR2 with a test tape and tone
generator. It was a beautiful machine, the size of a floor standing
kitchen appliance (except it was a dull grey/green) and a recording
channel would have consisted of a pair of them in a room.

We've probably all at some time or other been required to line up some
piece of equipment "by the book", and gained the impression that the
equipment hasn't read the same book, but this was different. It went
like a dream. Everything could be adjusted to exactly the value it
should be, and stayed there, with all the preset controls near mid
range. Also, the construction and wiring of the electronics in the
cupboard underneath the tape deck was like a work of art, just to
look at. It was class.

Having learnt how to line it up, I never encountered another one, but
it felt like a privilege to work with something from the days when
they built things properly.

Rod.

In article <tblom7$1506c$2@dont-email.me>, Woody
<harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:
> Ah yes, JLH (the best in my book), Williamson, and don't forget Stan
> Curtis (of Lecson fame) and the great Doug Self!

I was annoyed when - after I emigrated out of London (and Englsnd!) I
discovered that Doug Self lived only a short distance from where I had been
living! If I'd known earlier I'd have tried to contact him.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <3fd6eb93-0182-3bd0-08e2-2363d136c547@outlook.com>, Robin
<rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

> a. I don't know what options the RVWSoc had available but I knew a
> musician who uploaded 24-bit Linear PCM. Might provide a different
> (better?) baseline than an already-compressed file;

Yes and no. I do plan to do some comparisons versus LPCM 'sources' at some
future point. However the extisting page is to compare with *what YT were
given*. My view being that perhaps YT should offer *that* - without
reprocessing - as an option for users.

> b. it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)

> * "J. C. G. Lesurf 24th August 2022"

Oops.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <0220232b-c3f4-40ee-f73d-5a7024009f7c@outlook.com>, Robin
<rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 25/07/2022 13:37, williamwright wrote:
> > On 25/07/2022 13:23, Robin wrote:
> >> b. it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)
> >>
> >> * "J. C. G. Lesurf 24th August 2022"
> >
> > He's ahead of the rest of us; always has been.
> >

> I'll believe that when he posts the winner of the 20:00 at Kempton on 24
> August.

I predict it will be a man on a horse. :-)

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 09:45:34 +0100, Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <0220232b-c3f4-40ee-f73d-5a7024009f7c@outlook.com>, Robin
><rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
>> On 25/07/2022 13:37, williamwright wrote:
>> > On 25/07/2022 13:23, Robin wrote:
>> >> b. it's July, Jim* - albeit not with July weather as we knew it ;)
>> >>
>> >> * "J. C. G. Lesurf 24th August 2022"
>> >
>> > He's ahead of the rest of us; always has been.
>> >
>
>> I'll believe that when he posts the winner of the 20:00 at Kempton on 24
>> August.
>
>I predict it will be a man on a horse. :-)
>
Sexist :-)

On Mon, 25 Jul 2022 21:25:34 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <9uisdht3gt6ishif1ea7bhcge636u82bra@4ax.com>, John Armstrong
><jja@blueyonder.co.uk> scribeth thus
>>On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 21:06:13 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>And the delightful,
>>>
>>>https://www.ancientfm.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>stream.ancientfm.com:8058/stream
>>
>>Yes, that is very pleasant. Thanks for bringing it to my attention
>
>Pleasure Sir!
>
>Many years ago my first wife lived in Long Melford in Suffolk music from
>that time was a mainstay of the choral and music society at the church
>there.
>
>Plus copious amounts of beer after any practice, and sometimes pub first
>rehearse in that order!.
>
>Absolutely shameless plug for the place, the church is stunning, built
>with all the wool money that area generated. Actually got married
>there:)...
>
>https://www.longmelfordchurch.com/
>
>
>And just round the coroner the amazing Kentwell a stunningly beautify
>set Tudor manor house very well worth a visit if you have children their
>1549 re enactment days are super!, they just pretend it is that time and
>you can't catch them out thy only know the history Up to that time not
>after!!
>
>https://www.kentwell.co.uk/
>
>And to keep it all on topic!, the Sudbury TV mast is a few miles south
>at Workhouse green!..
>
>
>https://goo.gl/maps/pZWyN1zSfJaBZJrB7
>
>What's not to like;?...

Thank you! All most interesting - and what a beautiful church.

On 26/07/2022 09:45, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> I predict it will be a man on a horse.:-)
>
> Jim

You mean 'a person'! We aren't allowed to say man any more.

Bill

On Tue 26/07/2022 09:41, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <tblom7$1506c$2@dont-email.me>, Woody
> <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>> Ah yes, JLH (the best in my book), Williamson, and don't forget Stan
>> Curtis (of Lecson fame) and the great Doug Self!
>
> I was annoyed when - after I emigrated out of London (and Englsnd!) I
> discovered that Doug Self lived only a short distance from where I had been
> living! If I'd known earlier I'd have tried to contact him.
>
> Jim
>
You know what they say? S**t happens!

On 26/07/2022 17:07, Woody wrote:

> You know what they say? S**t happens!

What, saltsantsautscatscotscutseatsectsektsentseptsettsextshatshetshotshut
siftsiltsistskatskitslatslitslotslutsmitsmutsnitsnotsoftsootsortsout
Billspatspetspitspotstatstetstotsuetsuitswatswot
?

Bill

On Tue 26/07/2022 18:55, williamwright wrote:
> On 26/07/2022 17:07, Woody wrote:
>
>> You know what they say? S**t happens!
>
> What, saltsantsautscatscotscutseatsectsektsentseptsettsextshatshetshotshut
> siftsiltsistskatskitslatslitslotslutsmitsmutsnitsnotsoftsootsortsout
> Billspatspetspitspotstatstetstotsuetsuitswatswot
> ?
>
> Bill

Come on Bill, you missed out the one vowel after the h that matters!