On 12/08/2022 08:47, Indy Jess John wrote:
> On 11/08/2022 23:04, David Wade wrote:
>
>> They don't need to convert everyone to fibre, just to VOIP. So for
>> those of us on FTTC (or even ADSL) cease the POTS service but retain
>> the data service.
>
> Not everyone has a BT/Openreach connection. VirginMedia operate down two
> connections to my house, a twisted pair POTS service and a coax
> broadband, (which gives me 100mb). That has the distinct advantage that
> when I had a power cut last year I used the POTS phone to report it
> while the rest of the house was without power. It allowed the engineers
> to ring me back and tell me that it was a substation fault and that it
> only affected my street, and I was given an estimate of how long to fix it.
>
> On another occasion when the telephone was dead, I could use the
> broadband to report it and arrange an engineer visit to diagnose and fix.
>
> As the wires are already in place, I can't see any reason to replace
> them with fibre, and I can't see any customer benefit to changing to
> VOIP.  Besides, if I want to use VIOP, I can use Skype from my laptop
> instead.
>

Nevertheless VM plan to switch you over by end-2025.

Sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

> As the wires are already in place, I can't see any reason to
> replace them with fibre, and I can't see any customer benefit to
> changing to VOIP.

Those wires are 50 to 100 years old, connected to telephone exchanges designed
50 years ago and for which spare parts are no longer available and 100,000
aging street cabinets. Even the early FTTC street cabinets installed almost 20
years ago are reaching end of life.

Those exchanges also occupy 5,000 buildings around the country that cost a lot
to maintain and run, and have already been replaced by a few hundred newer
buildings.

Angus

In article <td1eps$1v3qk$1@dont-email.me>, Owen Rees
<orees@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> If you read the report it says that the plan was to replace the local
> loop with fibre. As for much electronics there are huge economies of
> scale. The political error is partly in the competition dogma and partly
> in the inability to understand the potential of fibre to the premises
> everywhere.

The real problem now in practice is the supplier changing over to a system
that obsoletes the old telephones without *ensuring* the customer can still
make a phone call. cf the item by Barry Fox about this in HFN where he
reports his experience and the way he is treated.

This hasn't reached us yet, but...

I'm waiting to see if we are asking if we have a 'mobile device' so I can
say "No", and then if the company ensure we can can *still* make a 999 call
during a power cut.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <5a162e05efbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
<bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <td1eps$1v3qk$1@dont-email.me>, Owen Rees <orees@hotmail.com>
> wrote:

> > The political error is partly in the competition dogma

> I don't know of any mechanism that makes a service better on price and
> quality than competition.

So you're happy with the price rises for energy and see no reason to do a
thing about it? It's just "The Market", a God that cannot be challenged?

Religion presented as rational.

Maybe you should read Galbraith. :-) There are some more modern views, but
his wit and ability to skewer such faiths is impressive as well as amusing
- if your religion isn't being shown to be absurd.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <5a1638a417noise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5a162e05efbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
> <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
> > In article <td1eps$1v3qk$1@dont-email.me>, Owen Rees <orees@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:

> > > The political error is partly in the competition dogma

> > I don't know of any mechanism that makes a service better on
> > price and quality than competition.

> So you're happy with the price rises for energy and see no reason
> to do a thing about it? It's just "The Market", a God that cannot
> be challenged?

Oh I thought you were going to debate in a mature way without
twisting what people say or attacks, leopards and spots.

How on earth have you got from what I wrote, "I don't know of any
mechanism ..." to the claim that I support price rises, or that it's
just the market.

I don't support the price rises, they've been caused by naive
stupidity. Relying on the devil's gas whilst refusing to address
energy security and make sure we had storage and production of our
own gas and electricity. Down entirely to the government but I'm
certain no other party would have done better.

The government was largely frightened to address energy because of
you're lot, the CO2 zealots.

Add Net-zero insanity and surprise surprise we have a crisis. A
crisis where ordinary people are going to be cold or hungry and
probably in debt in very large numbers.

Anyone who thinks 1% will change the climate or the weather, is
clearly unhinged and that's true even if the rest of world wasn't
increasing their CO2 output.

So well done CO2 zealots, you've immiserated millions of people for
absolutely no benefit. I hope you're so proud.

That's religion. A religion that cannot be questioned, certainly not
on the BBC.

> Religion presented as rational.

or even more bizarre that I support a religion.

> Maybe you should read Galbraith. :-) There are some more modern
> views, but his wit and ability to skewer such faiths is impressive
> as well as amusing - if your religion isn't being shown to be
> absurd.

This from the one of the most religious people I know of. You are a
high priest of the AGW, the most dangerous stupid religion of the
era.

Let me give you a quote from a well known professor:

"What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is
how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting
propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special
interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from
human industry was a dangerous planet destroying toxin. It will be
remembered as the greatest mass delusion in the history of the world
- that CO2, the life of plants, was considered for a time to be a
deadly poison."

That's rationality and the truth.

Bob.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 08:47:20 +0100, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:

>As the wires are already in place, I can't see any reason to replace
>them with fibre, and I can't see any customer benefit to changing to
>VOIP. Besides, if I want to use VIOP, I can use Skype from my laptop
>instead.

Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
replace old technology with more old technology.

Rod.

On 11/08/2022 19:08, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:13 +0100 (BST), angus@magsys.co.uk (Angus
> Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd) wrote:
>
>>> It might be realistic to adopt a policy of not installing any
>>> new copper cabling from a certain date.
>>
>> That date is September 2023 for the entire country, there are already over 300
>> exchanges where you can no longer order a new PSTN or ISDN line.
>
> So soon! I hadn't realised. Better get those old VDSL modem/routers on
> Ebay while they're still worth something.
>
>> December 2025 is when all existing Openreach PSTN and ISDN telephone lines go
>> dead, with the first exchange Salisbury due to die this December.

So who is going to provide the new routers with a phone socket? My
telecom provider (BT) or my ISP (PlusNet for ADSL2+)? What will it plug
into? Directly into the phone socket on the wall?

--
Max Demian

Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 08:47:20 +0100, Indy Jess John
> <bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
>
>> As the wires are already in place, I can't see any reason to replace
>> them with fibre, and I can't see any customer benefit to changing to
>> VOIP. Besides, if I want to use VIOP, I can use Skype from my laptop
>> instead.
>
> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
> replace old technology with more old technology.
>
> Rod.
>

The copper hold outs would soon change their minds if BT/OR was to charge
them the true economic cost of maintaining the legacy copper network once
everyone else has switched to fibre.

On 12/08/2022 12:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
> replace old technology with more old technology.

But if it has worked OK for fifty years and quite likely another fifty
if replaced with new cable .....

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 11/08/2022 19:08, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Aug 2022 16:13 +0100 (BST), angus@magsys.co.uk (Angus
>> Robertson - Magenta Systems Ltd) wrote:
>>
>>>> It might be realistic to adopt a policy of not installing any
>>>> new copper cabling from a certain date.
>>>
>>> That date is September 2023 for the entire country, there are already over 300
>>> exchanges where you can no longer order a new PSTN or ISDN line.
>>
>> So soon! I hadn't realised. Better get those old VDSL modem/routers on
>> Ebay while they're still worth something.
>>
>>> December 2025 is when all existing Openreach PSTN and ISDN telephone lines go
>>> dead, with the first exchange Salisbury due to die this December.
>
> So who is going to provide the new routers with a phone socket? My
> telecom provider (BT) or my ISP (PlusNet for ADSL2+)? What will it plug
> into? Directly into the phone socket on the wall?
>

If you have a voice only line then I expect whoever you pay your bill to
will provide a little box that is effectively a combined router and
analogue telephone adapter (ATA) with possibly an integrated DECT base
station.

If you have a voice line with Internet service it’s going to have to be the
ISP who is responsible for providing the data traffic for a phone service.
If you pay them for a voice service they are likely to provide you with a
suitable router.

Me, I’d just take Internet service and route my voice calls over Sipgate
and provide my own ATA. Sipgate for a simple service charge £0/month and
about 2p/minute for landline destined calls. The likes of Zen and BT try to
charge around £7/month, albeit with some level of bundled calls.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/08/2022 12:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
>> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
>> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
>> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
>> replace old technology with more old technology.
>
> But if it has worked OK for fifty years and quite likely another fifty
> if replaced with new cable .....
>

Not once they’ve sold off the exchange at the other end of your new cable.
The number of exchanges is going to reduce by around 80%. Most fibre
connections are not going to terminate where your existing copper line
does.

On 12/08/2022 13:32, Tweed wrote:
> The copper hold outs would soon change their minds if BT/OR was to charge
> them the true economic cost of maintaining the legacy copper network once
> everyone else has switched to fibre.

What are the maintenance costs when it is working, I don't think they
around polishing the copper regularly.

There costs when there is a fault but there are with fibre.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 12/08/2022 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>> The copper hold outs would soon change their minds if BT/OR was to charge
>> them the true economic cost of maintaining the legacy copper network once
>> everyone else has switched to fibre.
>
> What are the maintenance costs when it is working, I don't think they
> around polishing the copper regularly.
>
> There costs when there is a fault but there are with fibre.
>
>
>

Maintaining an exchange building just for you.

On 12/08/2022 11:42, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article <5a1638a417noise@audiomisc.co.uk>,
> Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk> wrote:
>> In article <5a162e05efbob@sick-of-spam.invalid>, Bob Latham
>> <bob@sick-of-spam.invalid> wrote:
>>> In article <td1eps$1v3qk$1@dont-email.me>, Owen Rees <orees@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>
>>>> The political error is partly in the competition dogma
>
>>> I don't know of any mechanism that makes a service better on
>>> price and quality than competition.
>
>> So you're happy with the price rises for energy and see no reason
>> to do a thing about it? It's just "The Market", a God that cannot
>> be challenged?
>
> Oh I thought you were going to debate in a mature way without
> twisting what people say or attacks, leopards and spots.
>
> How on earth have you got from what I wrote, "I don't know of any
> mechanism ..." to the claim that I support price rises, or that it's
> just the market.

Because that's what the competition mechanism produced!

> I don't support the price rises, they've been caused by naive
> stupidity. Relying on the devil's gas whilst refusing to address
> energy security and make sure we had storage and production of our
> own gas and electricity. Down entirely to the government but I'm
> certain no other party would have done better.

Then stop endlessly dragging party politics into it by blaming
'liberals', 'lefties', etc, for every problem that the country faces, as
in, for just one example amongst too many to count generally, and
particularly in this very thread:

On 09/08/2022 19:29, Bob Latham wrote:
> I think the reason for both is political pressure from the
> liberal/left elite media. The brainwashed 'water melons' (green on
> the outside, red on the inside) have painted energy as a great
> poluting evil and the people must be starved of it for the good of
> the planet. All fine if you're a wealthy champagne socialist.

> The government was largely frightened to address energy because of
> you're lot, the CO2 zealots.
>
> Add Net-zero insanity and surprise surprise we have a crisis. A
> crisis where ordinary people are going to be cold or hungry and
> probably in debt in very large numbers.

Just think how much worse a situation we'd be in now if we hadn't
installed so many alternative means of generating electricity, and how
the problems we face now might have been smaller if politicians over so
many governments hadn't kowtowed to climate denialists and the nuclear
lobby, thus wasting decades in prevarication and doing nothing and
£billions on white elephant technology for which this country has no
indigenous sources of fuel.

> Anyone who thinks 1% will change the climate or the weather, is
> clearly unhinged and that's true even if the rest of world wasn't
> increasing their CO2 output.

Clearly you haven't been reading the European news with its reports of
many wild fires across the continent, or Scottish news that show that
many lochs are lower than anyone can remember. Hell, even Lairg is
getting so short of water that Scottish Water are fixing leaks for free
even if they are between the toby and the customer's premises.

> So well done CO2 zealots, you've immiserated millions of people for
> absolutely no benefit. I hope you're so proud.

Change 'CO2 zealots' to 'climate denialists', and you'd be somewhere
near the truth.

> That's religion. A religion that cannot be questioned, certainly not
> on the BBC.

Climate Science is supported by scientific findings, your denialism is
the religion here.

>> Religion presented as rational.
>
> or even more bizarre that I support a religion.

You support the religion of climate denialism at least once a month here.

>> Maybe you should read Galbraith. :-) There are some more modern
>> views, but his wit and ability to skewer such faiths is impressive
>> as well as amusing - if your religion isn't being shown to be
>> absurd.
>
> This from the one of the most religious people I know of. You are a
> high priest of the AGW, the most dangerous stupid religion of the
> era.
>
> Let me give you a quote from a well known professor:
>
> "What historians will definitely wonder about in future centuries is
> how deeply flawed logic, obscured by shrewd and unrelenting
> propaganda, actually enabled a coalition of powerful special
> interests to convince nearly everyone in the world that CO2 from
> human industry was a dangerous planet destroying toxin. It will be
> remembered as the greatest mass delusion in the history of the world
> - that CO2, the life of plants, was considered for a time to be a
> deadly poison."

Your repeated quoting, even anonymously, of sources and statements that
HAVE ALREADY BEEN DEBUNKED HERE MANY TIMES earns you yet another
complaint to your news server's abuse system.

As previously debunked:

Professor Richard Lindzen [JJ Caps] ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Lindzen

"Climate sensitivity

Lindzen hypothesized that the Earth may act like an infrared iris. A sea
surface temperature increase in the tropics would result in reduced
cirrus clouds and thus more infrared radiation leakage from Earth's
atmosphere.[9] Additionally, rising temperatures would cause more
extensive drying due to increased areas of atmospheric subsidence. This
hypothesis suggests a negative feedback which would counter the effects
of CO2 warming by lowering the climate sensitivity. SATELLITE DATA FROM
CERES HAS LED RESEARCHERS INVESTIGATING LINDZEN'S THEORY TO CONCLUDE
THAT THE IRIS EFFECT WOULD INSTEAD WARM THE ATMOSPHERE.[46][47] Lindzen
disputed this, claiming that the negative feedback from high-level
clouds was still larger than the weak positive feedback estimated by Lin
et al.[48]

Lindzen has expressed his concern over the validity of computer models
used to predict future climate change. Lindzen said that predicted
warming may be overestimated because of their handling of the climate
system's water vapor feedback. The feedback due to water vapor is a
major factor in determining how much warming would be expected to occur
with increased atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, and all
existing computer models assume positive feedback — that is, that as the
climate warms, the amount of water vapour held in the atmosphere will
increase, leading to further warming. By contrast, Lindzen believes that
temperature increases will actually cause more extensive drying due to
increased areas of atmospheric subsidence as a result of the Iris
effect, nullifying future warming.[3] This claim was criticized by
climatologist Gavin Schmidt, Director of NASA's Goddard Institute for
Space Studies, who notes the more generally-accepted understanding of
the effects of the Iris effect and CITES EMPIRICAL CASES WHERE LARGE AND
RELATIVELY RAPID CHANGES IN THE CLIMATE SUCH AS EL NIÑO EVENTS, THE
ULTRA PLINIAN ERUPTION OF MOUNT PINATUBO IN 1991, AND RECENT TRENDS IN
GLOBAL TEMPERATURE AND WATER VAPOR LEVELS TO SHOW THAT, AS PREDICTED IN
THE GENERALLY-ACCEPTED VIEW, WATER VAPOR INCREASES AS THE TEMPERATURE
INCREASES, AND DECREASES AS TEMPERATURES DECREASE.[49]

Contrary to the IPCC's assessment, Lindzen said that climate models are
inadequate. Despite accepted errors in their models, e.g., treatment of
clouds, modelers still thought their climate predictions were valid.[50]
Lindzen has stated that due to the non-linear effects of carbon dioxide
in the atmosphere, CO2 levels are now around 30% higher than
pre-industrial levels but temperatures have responded by about 75% 0.6
°C (1.08 °F) of the expected value for a doubling of CO2. The IPCC
(2007) estimates that the expected rise in temperature due to a doubling
of CO2 to be about 3 °C (5.4 °F), ± 1.5°. Lindzen has given estimates of
the Earth's climate sensitivity to be 0.5 °C based on ERBE data.[51]
These estimates were criticized by Kevin E. Trenberth and others,[52]
and LINDZEN ACCEPTED THAT HIS PAPER INCLUDED "SOME STUPID MISTAKES".
When interviewed, he said "It was just embarrassing", and added that
"The technical details of satellite measurements are really sort of
grotesque." LINDZEN AND CHOI REVISED THEIR PAPER AND SUBMITTED IT TO
PNAS.[53] THE FOUR REVIEWERS OF THE PAPER, TWO OF WHOM HAD BEEN SELECTED
BY LINDZEN, STRONGLY CRITICIZED THE PAPER AND PNAS REJECTED IT FOR
PUBLICATION.[54] Lindzen and Choi then succeeded in getting a little
known Korean journal to publish it as a 2011 paper.[53][55] ANDREW
DESSLER PUBLISHED A PAPER WHICH FOUND ERRORS IN LINDZEN AND CHOI 2011,
AND CONCLUDED THAT THE OBSERVATIONS IT HAD PRESENTED "ARE NOT IN
FUNDAMENTAL DISAGREEMENT WITH MAINSTREAM CLIMATE MODELS, NOR DO THEY
PROVIDE EVIDENCE THAT CLOUDS ARE CAUSING CLIMATE CHANGE. SUGGESTIONS
THAT SIGNIFICANT REVISIONS TO MAINSTREAM CLIMATE SCIENCE ARE REQUIRED
ARE THEREFORE NOT SUPPORTED."[56]"

> So who is going to provide the new routers with a phone socket?
> My telecom provider (BT) or my ISP (PlusNet for ADSL2+)?

Your ISP will supply a new router.

But it probably won't be ADSL since that service will disappear at the same
time the PSTN exchanges close down since that is where it's delivered from.

You are presumably too far from a cabinet to get FTTC or on an exchange only
line without FTTC. BT might offer you full fibre, or put in a new cabinet
somewhere so you get FTTC.

Angus

On 12/08/2022 12:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
> replace old technology with more old technology.

They also erode by theft as scrap copper is rather valuable compared
with scrap mono-mode fibre, which is basically just a little glass when
melted down.

On 12/08/2022 12:41, Max Demian wrote:
> So who is going to provide the new routers with a phone socket? My
> telecom provider (BT) or my ISP (PlusNet for ADSL2+)? What will it plug
> into? Directly into the phone socket on the wall?

I'm pretty sure that a little research will given definitive answers,
because this is something already in progress. However, regarding the
existing sockets, I believe the master socket is no longer valid, and
the internal extension wiring is the consumer's responsibility, and will
not be connected to the VoIP system, by the installer, but could be
connected if the VoIP adapter has a socket. It would be up to the
consumer to source suitable cables, probably male to male. This assumes
you didn't hold out from before the separation of consumer and BT wiring.

I believe the BT standard offering is DECT based, with a socket as well,
and one for a standby power supply, but it is a little while since I
last looked into this.

Actually, from a quick look at
<https://www.bt.com/broadband/digital-voice> it isn't actually clear
that the hub has a phone socket. What BT seem to do is offer what is,
presumably, a DECT to analogue station adaptor, in wall wart format.
They do talk about a smart hub 2, which does have a phone socket but its
note clear to me how this will be handled when there was no OpenReach
broadband, or BT are not the broadband retailer.

The instructions for the adaptor say:

"*Making emergency calls* You won’t be able to call 999 (or any other
numbers) from phones connected to your hub or Digital Voice Adapter if
there’s a power cut, or a problem with your broadband. So make sure
you’ve got another way to call for help in an emergency."

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 12/08/2022 12:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
>> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
>> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
>> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
>> replace old technology with more old technology.
>
> They also erode by theft as scrap copper is rather valuable compared
> with scrap mono-mode fibre, which is basically just a little glass when
> melted down.
>

It’s not just the copper cable. There’s all the end point equipment in the
exchange that needs to be maintained and be periodically replaced when life
expired. There’s almost no voice call revenue left to support this.

On 12/08/2022 14:37, David Woolley wrote:
> presumably, a DECT to analogue station adaptor, in wall wart format.

Their video suggests, to me, that the adaptor may be WiFi, rather than
DECT, based.

On 11/08/2022 20:50, MB wrote:

> There are no poles anywhere near here.
>
>

They fish in the village pond you know.

Bill

> What are the maintenance costs when it is working, I don't think
> they around polishing the copper regularly.

Copper is not maintenance free, often someone getting new service disturbs
wiring for existing services, or sometimes takes over an existing service.

An Openreach engineer spent several weeks last winter and spring sitting in a
tent around my PCP green box, replacing all the krone strips used for
interconnecting cables.

Seemed bizarre due to the supposed replacement of copper real soon, but the box
serves a few hundred customers and we do like our broadband, so not complaining
if it makes the service more reliable.

Angus

The Other John wrote:

> My younger son moved into
> a newbuild house last year and it only has FTTP and although he had a
> contract with Plusnet he was not allowed to transfer it and had to take
> out a BT contract.

That would be because at the time Plusnet didn't sell an FTTP product, they do
as of a couple of weeks ago.

> Are there any places where one has a choice of ISP on FTTP?

Loads ... anywhere that openreach FTTP is available, you have a choice of all
ISPs who provide products on openreach FTTP, that list will be smaller than the
list of ISPs who provide ADSL/VDSL products.

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 13:50:40 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 12/08/2022 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>> The copper hold outs would soon change their minds if BT/OR was to charge
>> them the true economic cost of maintaining the legacy copper network once
>> everyone else has switched to fibre.
>
>What are the maintenance costs when it is working, I don't think they
>around polishing the copper regularly.
>
>There costs when there is a fault but there are with fibre.

Cables might look maintenance-free if you consider the ones behind
your hi-fi system. You just leave them alone and nothing happens to
them. But consider miles of the stuff going to millions of
destinations, some of it underground, some of it stapled to walls or
stretched overhead being roasted in the hot sun, soaked in rain and
flailed around in strong winds for years on end. There are also
millions of bits of electronics, modems, amplifiers and electrical
connections, some of them in cabinets in the street, subject to the
same sun, rain, corrosion etc, and they're all over the country.

All this stuff is made to be as reliable as possible, but with the
sheer amount of it, even the most unlikely faults will occasionally
happen somewhere. A fault could be a trivial one, but it could be
anywhere, and somebody has to find it and travel to it with a van full
of equipment, and the skills and experience needed to fix it, whatever
it turns out to be...

Rod.

On 12/08/2022 13:42, Tweed wrote:
> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

>> So who is going to provide the new routers with a phone socket? My
>> telecom provider (BT) or my ISP (PlusNet for ADSL2+)? What will it plug
>> into? Directly into the phone socket on the wall?

> If you have a voice only line then I expect whoever you pay your bill to
> will provide a little box that is effectively a combined router and
> analogue telephone adapter (ATA) with possibly an integrated DECT base
> station.
>
> If you have a voice line with Internet service it’s going to have to be the
> ISP who is responsible for providing the data traffic for a phone service.
> If you pay them for a voice service they are likely to provide you with a
> suitable router.

My voice service is from BT; my ADSL2+ is PlusNet.

--
Max Demian

On Fri, 12 Aug 2022 13:33:56 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 12/08/2022 12:31, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> Nothing lasts forever. Cables can become waterlogged and electrical
>> connections can become corroded. Engineering systems only continue to
>> work because somebody maintains them. As more people move to fibre, if
>> part of a cable system fails it won't make much economic sense to
>> replace old technology with more old technology.
>
>But if it has worked OK for fifty years and quite likely another fifty
>if replaced with new cable .....

The system works because it has people looking after it, all the time.

Rod.