On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:33:35 +0100, BrightsideS9
<reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>>Why can’t the landline provider simply tell you to get stuffed and go and
>>sort your own voice solution at your own cost? A mobile with unlimited free
>>minutes is cheaper than a landline rental. Without an exhaustive search,
>>Tesco will give you unlimited voice minutes for £7.50/month. If you are
>>paying (either directly or as part of the broadband sub) for a landline to
>>get your broadband you already have an almost no ongoing cost solution,
>>other than very small call charges, from the likes of Sipgate.
>>
>
>You are proposing a Tesco mobile at £7.50 a month ontop of purchase
>price, just to use as an emergency, for a stalwart land line user eh?
>paying

If you're paying the cost of a line rental for a landline phone, which
is about £15 (more or less) then changing to fibre with a charge of
only £7 for the VOIP phone will mean you're paying *less*.

Rod.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:49:41 +0100, David Woolley
<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/08/2022 15:38, Max Demian wrote:
>> Get a PAYG SIM from giffgaff. You just have to use it every few months
>> to keep it active.
>
>I think you mean that your {son|daughter}[in-law] will get you one, drag
>it out of the drawer and charge it whenever they come and visit, and,
>every few months use it.

Or you can set a reminder in your Google calendar to do this yourself
every 90 days, or whatever the cutoff limit is for your phone. It's
not difficult.

Rod.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:41:33 +0100, BrightsideS9
<reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 13:24:16 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 14/08/2022 12:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Corded style desk telephones that connect via GSM are a thing. A mobile
>>> phone doesn’t have to look like a mobile phone.
>>
>>Not that it does not look like a mobile phone.
>>
>>It will probbaly be mains powered (with battery backup) normally be in a
>>fixed location.
>>
>
>I've got one. Looks like a desktop phone. It can be carried around but
>the battery only lasts 24 hours on standby, even less if phone used.
>The phone is designed to permenently mains connected.

Why does a phone have to look like a desktop phone? These days you can
get a phone that looks like a banana, or pretty much anything else you
feel like. As long as it works, who cares?

Rod.

Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:41:33 +0100, BrightsideS9
> <reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 13:24:16 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/2022 12:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Corded style desk telephones that connect via GSM are a thing. A mobile
>>>> phone doesn’t have to look like a mobile phone.
>>>
>>> Not that it does not look like a mobile phone.
>>>
>>> It will probbaly be mains powered (with battery backup) normally be in a
>>> fixed location.
>>>
>>
>> I've got one. Looks like a desktop phone. It can be carried around but
>> the battery only lasts 24 hours on standby, even less if phone used.
>> The phone is designed to permenently mains connected.
>
> Why does a phone have to look like a desktop phone? These days you can
> get a phone that looks like a banana, or pretty much anything else you
> feel like. As long as it works, who cares?
>
> Rod.
>

If you have some sort of cognitive or physical disability a familiar style
or larger phone may be easier to cope with.

On 14/08/2022 20:18, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Why does a phone have to look like a desktop phone? These days you can
> get a phone that looks like a banana, or pretty much anything else you
> feel like. As long as it works, who cares?

I always find that the old standard telephone handset is more
comfortable to hold than a small mobile phone which never seem to fit in
the hand well, the "smart" phones are even worse.

Having a tradition telephone instrument means you always know where it
is and do not have to hunt around for a small mobile phone.

My eyesight is not too bad and my manual dexterity is OK but I find a
traditional instrument easier to dial out on than a silly little mobile
phone and certainly easier than a "smart" phone.

On 14/08/2022 20:16, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Or you can set a reminder in your Google calendar to do this yourself
> every 90 days, or whatever the cutoff limit is for your phone. It's
> not difficult.

The sort of people I'm thinking of here, e.g. my late mother and more
recently an elderly neighbour, would not have any form of computer
literacy so would not be able to use any form of electronic calendar.

I can't remember if it was you, but someone mentioned fax and telex, and
adapting to those dying out. Those are business services, and you would
get rid of employees that could not cope with the change. That's not an
option for the people I think will most likely be landline stalwarts.

The son, daughter, etc., may well create a diary entry reminding them to
make the call to keep the account alive. I think I did, for my mother.
But the person given the phone, by the relative, may not even perceive
the importance of keeping it alive.

David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:
> On 14/08/2022 20:16, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> Or you can set a reminder in your Google calendar to do this yourself
>> every 90 days, or whatever the cutoff limit is for your phone. It's
>> not difficult.
>
> The sort of people I'm thinking of here, e.g. my late mother and more
> recently an elderly neighbour, would not have any form of computer
> literacy so would not be able to use any form of electronic calendar.
>
> I can't remember if it was you, but someone mentioned fax and telex, and
> adapting to those dying out. Those are business services, and you would
> get rid of employees that could not cope with the change. That's not an
> option for the people I think will most likely be landline stalwarts.
>
> The son, daughter, etc., may well create a diary entry reminding them to
> make the call to keep the account alive. I think I did, for my mother.
> But the person given the phone, by the relative, may not even perceive
> the importance of keeping it alive.
>

That’s why a £7.50/month contract with unlimited minutes is the way
forwards. Cheaper than a wired landline. GSM desk phone gives familiarity
and at least a day of battery power in the event of power failure. And
remember a mobile will roam to any network for 999 if the primary network
has gone AWOL.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:51:14 +0100, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:17:55 +0100, John Armstrong
><jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>City Fibre are currently installing fibre in the city where I live. My
>>street was done several months ago. When I enquired about
>>availability, giving my address, they said that I live in a "private
>>road". This does not inspire me with confidence in their service.
>
>Curious. I also live in a private road i.e. it's unadopted (though not
>fenced off like some of the more snooty "private" housing estates).

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I do NOT live in a private road. Access to my
flat (and four others) is via a path about 10 yards from the road, but
it is by no means private. As I said, I and others already have
Virgin, and that was installed quite a few years after the flats were
built.
>

In article <ipvefh1h26ujne3rdtsmd1m4028ji2ntgo@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:20:47 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> >I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
> >services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
> > will have to be able to feed a telephone.
> >
> >The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains
> >supply.

> What is the problem with the provision of a mains supply?

> Or 2). The continued function of the equipment in a power cut?

Yes.

> 2). is easily catered for with a UPS. Search for "UPS" or
> "Uninterruptible Power supply" on Amazon to see the variety already
> available. You can get big ones to power computers, or little low
> voltage ones that will just power the router and optical terminal so you
> can still use your laptop or tablet till the power is restored.

> A problem is only a problem until it's solved.

You assume:

1) That the user knows the above and is well informed *before* the change
that it will happen.

2) That they can afford to fit a UPS and use it. And know how to go about
this.

However (at least some of) the companies are taking for granted that
everyone has a 'mobile device' and will simply use that in an emergency
during a power cut. Hence no need to bother informing customers wrt when
the change will happen, etc.

This is the kind of reality Barry himself has encountered, with then the
need to phone a 'call center'... erm...

This should be simple IF the companies behave as they should. But not all
IF statements return TRUE.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <5a174c6851charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
<charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
> kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5
> days earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of
> time.

Indeed. Apparently the companies are REQUIRED to provide a UPS
arrangement for those who do not have any 'mobile' to use in the event of a
power cut + need for 999 call. It is a condition of the changeover.

However they may simply "not ask, not know" as it is for them simpler and
cheaper.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <3j8ffhd4imknnkt1r9tj1hjf8o7c5g3cr5@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> If power cuts are that much of a problem where you live, you might want
> to consider bigger batteries, or even a generator. Take precautions
> appropriate to your circumstances.

Not ideal advice for people who may already not be able to afford food or
heating.

> I can only recall two power cuts of a few hours each in the thirty years
> or so that I've lived here, so I haven't bothered. If they'd been more
> frequent I might have some sort of backup system in place by now, but if
> they lasted for days, I suspect that loss of internet might be the least
> of my worries.

They were common here up until a decade or so ago when they changed the
local substation. However given the problems with energy they might become
more common in the next year or so for those who struggle to pay their
bills.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
biog http://jcgl.orpheusweb.co.uk/history/ups_and_downs.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <td82nn$2qndo$1@dont-email.me>, Indy Jess John
<bathwatchdog@OMITTHISgooglemail.com> wrote:
> On 11/08/2022 11:36, Bob Latham wrote:

> > That's why we get hose pipe bans because the service doesn't matter,
> > only profits do. So leaks don't get properly fixed and de-salination
> > plants sit idle.

> That could be tackled if Ofwat was given sufficient teeth.

Alas, however you look at it, this means a very large cost has to be found,
one way or another, and it will take years to build/repair the
infrastructure required. Undoing decades of decay and dodging isn't a
trivial issue... whilst the ones who vampired away the money sit and laugh.

They will probably then make more profits from creaming the work done which
previously they'd ducked. Just to confirm how great 'privatisation' is...
for them. The cow that keeps on giving (them) cream - even when dead!

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <td8is7$2s842$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
wrote:

> To cope with a power cut the simple solution is a battery pack that is
> activated only when the emergency call needs to be made.

That, in essence is what the companies are required to provide *for those
who have no mobile device or other provision*. However they may 'solve'
this by simply assuming "everyone has a mobile". Don't ask, don't know.
Saves them money and bother.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <td8ds7$2rnre$2@dont-email.me>, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> From everything that I have read they are trying to clear the backlog
> but most because of the days when the water industry was state owned and
> there was little investment. Been much more investment since
> privatisation.

The FT seem to have a different story.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

On Mon, 15 Aug 2022 09:18:47 +0100, John Armstrong
<jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

>On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:51:14 +0100, Roderick Stewart
><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:17:55 +0100, John Armstrong
>><jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>City Fibre are currently installing fibre in the city where I live. My
>>>street was done several months ago. When I enquired about
>>>availability, giving my address, they said that I live in a "private
>>>road". This does not inspire me with confidence in their service.
>>
>>Curious. I also live in a private road i.e. it's unadopted (though not
>>fenced off like some of the more snooty "private" housing estates).
>
>Sorry, I wasn't clear. I do NOT live in a private road. Access to my
>flat (and four others) is via a path about 10 yards from the road, but
>it is by no means private. As I said, I and others already have
>Virgin, and that was installed quite a few years after the flats were
>built.
>>

I misunderstood. Presumably you pointed their mistake out to them? If
you did, what was their response?

Rod.

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 21:18:57 +0100, David Woolley
<david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/08/2022 20:16, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>> Or you can set a reminder in your Google calendar to do this yourself
>> every 90 days, or whatever the cutoff limit is for your phone. It's
>> not difficult.
>
>The sort of people I'm thinking of here, e.g. my late mother and more
>recently an elderly neighbour, would not have any form of computer
>literacy so would not be able to use any form of electronic calendar.

The sort of people you're thinking of will probably remember the olden
days before electronics. Some of the things people could do then were
different from today, but as far as I can recall it was possible to
keep a diary. Personally I find the Google one convenient, but other
options are available. If it's important to remember to do something
on a certain day, there have always been ways of managing it.
Samuel Pepys kept a diary, and I don't think he had a phone.

Rod.

On 15/08/2022 09:18, John Armstrong wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:51:14 +0100, Roderick Stewart
> <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 09:17:55 +0100, John Armstrong
>> <jja@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> City Fibre are currently installing fibre in the city where I live. My
>>> street was done several months ago. When I enquired about
>>> availability, giving my address, they said that I live in a "private
>>> road". This does not inspire me with confidence in their service.
>>
>> Curious. I also live in a private road i.e. it's unadopted (though not
>> fenced off like some of the more snooty "private" housing estates).
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I do NOT live in a private road. Access to my
> flat (and four others) is via a path about 10 yards from the road, but
> it is by no means private. As I said, I and others already have
> Virgin, and that was installed quite a few years after the flats were
> built.
>>
I wouldn't read City Fibre's use of "private road" literally. They may
use it as shorthand for "we think we need a wayleave".

E.g. might the issue be with the path to your flat? You and others in
the flats may have an easement that gives you rights to access your
flats but doesn't give you the right to give City Fibre a wayleave.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:04:58 +0100, Jim Lesurf <noise@audiomisc.co.uk>
wrote:

>In article <ipvefh1h26ujne3rdtsmd1m4028ji2ntgo@4ax.com>, Roderick Stewart
><rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Aug 2022 08:20:47 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>> >I find it hard to believe that BT will be allowed to remove voice
>> >services without providing a replacement. It might pass over fibre but
>> > will have to be able to feed a telephone.
>> >
>> >The big problem for most people is having provide it with a mains
>> >supply.
>
>> What is the problem with the provision of a mains supply?
>
>
>> Or 2). The continued function of the equipment in a power cut?
>
>Yes.
>
>> 2). is easily catered for with a UPS. Search for "UPS" or
>> "Uninterruptible Power supply" on Amazon to see the variety already
>> available. You can get big ones to power computers, or little low
>> voltage ones that will just power the router and optical terminal so you
>> can still use your laptop or tablet till the power is restored.
>
>> A problem is only a problem until it's solved.
>
>You assume:
>
>1) That the user knows the above and is well informed *before* the change
>that it will happen.
>
>2) That they can afford to fit a UPS and use it. And know how to go about
>this.
>
>However (at least some of) the companies are taking for granted that
>everyone has a 'mobile device' and will simply use that in an emergency
>during a power cut. Hence no need to bother informing customers wrt when
>the change will happen, etc.
>
>This is the kind of reality Barry himself has encountered, with then the
>need to phone a 'call center'... erm...
>
>This should be simple IF the companies behave as they should. But not all
>IF statements return TRUE.
>

All woderful speculative stuff from many posters about digital voice
and power.

Here's wht BT says.

Digital Voice: Will my service work in a power cut?
No, your Hub must have power for you to be able to make calls using
our Digital Voice service.

If there's a power cut, please make calls using an alternative method,
such as a mobile phone.

If you live in an area where you believe you have no mobile reception,
or you don’t have access to a mobile phone please give us a call on
150.

So if any poster knows how BT resolved that for a particular customer
maybe some information, not speculation, posted here would be
appreciated, at least by me.

brightside S9

On 14/08/2022 10:08, Jim Lesurf wrote:
> In article <5a174c6851charles@candehope.me.uk>, charles
> <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> We have been without power for about 14 hours- my laptop mwouldn't have
>> kept going that long - but some people were without power for 4 or 5
>> days earlier this year. A UPS wouldn't be much use for that length of
>> time.
>
> Indeed. Apparently the companies are REQUIRED to provide a UPS
> arrangement for those who do not have any 'mobile' to use in the event of a
> power cut + need for 999 call. It is a condition of the changeover.

AFAIK the position now is still as in Ofcom's guidance on General
Condition A3.2(b) in 2018. That is not prescriptive about /means/. It
focuses on /ends/ - in brief,

a. offer customers a minimum of 1 hour backup

b. identify customers at risk who need more than than 1 hour and provide
that free of charge.

That patently admits a mobile phone for those with coverage who can use one.

> However they may simply "not ask, not know" as it is for them simpler and
> cheaper.

I'd reckon most realise that e.g. poorly babies dying because no one
could call an ambulance leads to opprobrium, fines, and compensation.
IME companies are like individuals: most don't try it on when the odds
of getting caught are high and the punishment hurts.

And Ofcom are now (belatedly) monitoring what suppliers are doing.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/08/2022 10:46, BrightsideS9 wrote:

<snip>

> All woderful speculative stuff from many posters about digital voice
> and power.
>
> Here's wht BT says.
>
> Digital Voice: Will my service work in a power cut?
> No, your Hub must have power for you to be able to make calls using
> our Digital Voice service.
>
> If there's a power cut, please make calls using an alternative method,
> such as a mobile phone.
>
> If you live in an area where you believe you have no mobile reception,
> or you don’t have access to a mobile phone please give us a call on
> 150.
>
> So if any poster knows how BT resolved that for a particular customer
> maybe some information, not speculation, posted here would be
> appreciated, at least by me.
>

I know one vulnerable customer for whom BT provided a UPS[1] free of
charge.

I don't know what if any arrangements BT have in place for
maintenace/replacement (which Ofcom also expect under the GC) and have
not asked as it's academic for the person in qesttion.

And to forestall question, I won't provide their name or circumsatnces.

[1]
https://shop.bt.com/products/cyberpower-back-up-for-bt-digital-voice-service--fttp--097284-FV55.html

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/08/2022 10:46, BrightsideS9 wrote:
> If you live in an area where you believe you have no mobile reception,
> or you don’t have access to a mobile phone please give us a call on
> 150.

Openreach, on
<https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/sector-support-offer/supporting-financial-resilience-and-economic-recovery/digital/switchover/faqs>,
which I think means it is an official statement, says:

'Some Communication Providers will offer “at risk” customers a Battery
Back Up solution for the router and where necessary the optical network
termination for fibre to the public, however some will rely on the
customers own mobile phone service to meet the Office for Communications
guidance.'

The let out is that they don't say whether some providers includes BT
retail, although Robin's example seems to indicate that BT retail are
one that will provide back up power.

My general impression is that no company is going to go public on all
the options and when they will use them. I think they intend to play it
by ear, although there probably are or will be confidential guidelines
on the more common cases.

I don't think that what happens when one person makes a request is
likely to be a reliable indicator for anyone else. In some areas this
will already have happened (e.g Robin's example), but the policy may
well adapt in response to what happens in those areas.

On 15/08/2022 11:52, David Woolley wrote:
> On 15/08/2022 10:46, BrightsideS9 wrote:
>> If you live in an area where you believe you have no mobile reception,
>> or you don’t have access to a mobile phone please give us a call on
>> 150.
>
> Openreach, on
> <https://www.local.gov.uk/our-support/sector-support-offer/supporting-financial-resilience-and-economic-recovery/digital/switchover/faqs>,
> which I think means it is an official statement, says:
>
> 'Some Communication Providers will offer “at risk” customers a Battery
> Back Up solution for the router and where necessary the optical network
> termination for fibre to the public, however some will rely on the
> customers own mobile phone service to meet the Office for Communications
> guidance.'
>
> The let out is that they don't say whether some providers includes BT
> retail, although Robin's example seems to indicate that BT retail are
> one that will provide back up power.
>
> My general impression is that no company is going to go public on all
> the options and when they will use them.  I think they intend to play it
> by ear, although there probably are or will be confidential guidelines
> on the more common cases.
>
> I don't think that what happens when one person makes a request is
> likely to be a reliable indicator for anyone else.  In some areas this
> will already have happened (e.g Robin's example), but the policy may
> well adapt in response to what happens in those areas.
>

+1

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 15/08/2022 10:58, Robin wrote:
> I know one vulnerable customer for whom BT provided a UPS[1] free of
> charge.

I got the impression from something that I read that they might be
supplied with a backup unit using replaceable batteries rather than a
mains powered UPS. In some ways this might be better because the AA(?)
batteries can always be replaced to maintain service whereas once a
standard UPS is discharged then for most people it would be difficult to
recharge.

In article <30ihfhpupjiedmicqspbkcjcjv8ls151qs@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> if it's absolutely vital that your fibre service keeps working, and
> for some reason you can't use a mobile, then I would suggest that it's
> up to you to get yourself a suitable power backup device.

AIUI the service provider is *required* to ensure you can still 'use a
phone'. So the legal burden is on them. Problem is, they may simply take
for granted "everyone has a mobile, so that's OK".

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
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Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html

In article <tdae64$342jk$1@dont-email.me>, Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com>

> > So if you don't, make a fuss. They are apparently obliged to then
> > provide a local power backup for when there is a power cut.
> > Personally, I think that should be the case in all homes as a matter
> > of safety. Just has it has been in the past.
> >
> > Jim
> >

> It is technically trivial. Box stuffed full of lithium batteries float
> charged from mains. Pass through to keep router/ONT operating when mains
> on. When mains fails power to equipment stops.

"Technically", yes. But the real problem is that some users either don't
know any of this - or what may happen soon to them - or find they are
already easily afford food/heating - or be elderly/disabled and can't find
out about this or physically do the things needed. etc. etc.

And when the connection provider makes a change like this taking for
granted what the mere 'customer' can/will do.

The point Barry is making is that what should happen, all too often, isn't.
And trying to sort this out with the provider is a nightmare. He's quite
good at arguing with companies and finding things out. A friend of mine who
is bedridden and relies on 'pop in carers' during the day may find this
more difficult. His only way to communicate is via those visitors or his
standard phone. No mobile, no computers, etc.

Jim

--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
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