I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.

When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
force for safety reason if the trains were too short.

It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
from a rolling stock leasing company.

On 28/07/2022 17:47, MB wrote:
> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>
> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>
> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
> from a rolling stock leasing company.

Seeing various dates for the end of Motorail. It was possibly 26th May
1995 but could have been 28th May.

Why were Motorail trains more difficult to drive, according to one of
the drivers?

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:58:06 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>Seeing various dates for the end of Motorail. It was possibly 26th May
>1995 but could have been 28th May.

I think it's between those two. I was at Preston and photographed what
I noted as the last Up Motorail on Saturday 27th May 1995.
That said wasn't there a short lived motorail on the Great Western
later than that?

On 28/07/2022 20:50, Nigel Emery wrote:
> I think it's between those two. I was at Preston and photographed what
> I noted as the last Up Motorail on Saturday 27th May 1995.
> That said wasn't there a short lived motorail on the Great Western
> later than that?

It was just the dates of the local service, I put some pictures of the
Motorail ramp on Canmore so added a bit of text.

They were hoping the sleeper service would have been ended on the same day.

Nigel Emery <nigele3@ukonline.co.uk> wrote:
> I think it's between those two. I was at Preston and photographed what
> I noted as the last Up Motorail on Saturday 27th May 1995.
> That said wasn't there a short lived motorail on the Great Western
> later than that?

FGW ran a service 1999-2005. Apparently the vans are now used as brake
force runners by Network Rail.

Theo

In message <tbuf6v$36sm1$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:06 on Thu, 28 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 28/07/2022 17:47, MB wrote:
>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.

>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of
>>more Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to
>>hire them from a rolling stock leasing company.
>
>Seeing various dates for the end of Motorail. It was possibly 26th May
>1995 but could have been 28th May.
>
>Why were Motorail trains more difficult to drive, according to one of
>the drivers?

Wouldn't that be a consequence of them having (implied in your first
paragraph) less braking available than a regular passenger train? And
maybe the were under instructions not to jolt to the customers as much
as if it was a pure freight train.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>
>When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>
>It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>from a rolling stock leasing company.

Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 06:12:13 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tbuf6v$36sm1$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:58:06 on Thu, 28 Jul
>2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>On 28/07/2022 17:47, MB wrote:
>>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>
>>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of
>>>more Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to
>>>hire them from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>
>>Seeing various dates for the end of Motorail. It was possibly 26th May
>>1995 but could have been 28th May.
>>
>>Why were Motorail trains more difficult to drive, according to one of
>>the drivers?
>
>Wouldn't that be a consequence of them having (implied in your first
>paragraph) less braking available than a regular passenger train? And
>maybe the were under instructions not to jolt to the customers as much
>as if it was a pure freight train.

Might it also be something to do with the cars rocking backwards and
forwards during braking and acceleration? Something no doubt eurotunnel have
to worry about too especially with HGVs.

On 2022-07-28 16:58:06 +0000, MB said:

> On 28/07/2022 17:47, MB wrote:
>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>
>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>
>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>
>
> Seeing various dates for the end of Motorail. It was possibly 26th May
> 1995 but could have been 28th May.
>
> Why were Motorail trains more difficult to drive, according to one of
> the drivers?

I think there may be issues relating to the different braking
characteristics of the car transporters compared with passenger rolling
stock. In general the difference in weight of a full or empty coach is
not much while the difference in wieght between a full and empty
freight vehicle is quie significant, so the way the brakes are set up
and operate is different. On a mixed train, that needs to be driven to
standards acceptable for passenger comfort, I imagine this makes the
job more difficult.

Robin

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>
>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>
>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>
> Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
> at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.

Pre-Chunnel we did a Motorrail from Calais to Brive-la-Gaillard near the
Dordogne. I suspect it must have taken the ceinture around Paris, but I
don’t know. We definitely started with a pair of diesel engines on the
front, but Brive is deep in 1500VDC territory so there may have been a
traction change en route somewhere.

The train was going further - Toulouse? - but our family of five was woken
up in our couchette (rattle, rattle, “Brive, quart d’heure! Brive, quart
d’heure!”) and we were given breakfast in the old roundhouse while the cars
were unloaded from the wagons that had been dropped off. It was the first
time I ever experienced warm fog.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 12:26:47 +0200
Bob <email@domain.com> wrote:
>On 2022-07-28 16:58:06 +0000, MB said:
>> Why were Motorail trains more difficult to drive, according to one of
>> the drivers?
>
>I think there may be issues relating to the different braking
>characteristics of the car transporters compared with passenger rolling
>stock. In general the difference in weight of a full or empty coach is
>not much while the difference in wieght between a full and empty
>freight vehicle is quie significant, so the way the brakes are set up
>and operate is different. On a mixed train, that needs to be driven to
>standards acceptable for passenger comfort, I imagine this makes the
>job more difficult.

Ditto with HGVs. The brakes are (obviously) designed to work well with a full
load so when you're driving empty you have to be careful not to inadvertantly
do an almost emergency stop by pressing the pedal too hard.

In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>
>>When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>
>>It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>from a rolling stock leasing company.
>
>Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.

But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.

That was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation
to remove a handful of cars from the roads.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/07/2022 15:17, Roland Perry wrote:
> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>
> That was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation
> to remove a handful of cars from the roads.

But they would now say it is 'green' abd get lots Brownie points from it,

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>
>>>When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>
>>>It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>
>>Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>
>>at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>
>But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.

There is that. But at current prices you're probably looking at 150-200 quid
just in fuel to get to the south of france from calais. Then you need to factor
in an overnight hotel stop for N people (unless you're up to doing 600 miles in
one go) plus wear and tear on the car and the general hassle and risks of
driving that far.

Anything up to maybe 500 quid one way for a car + passengers I'd pay for it,
spend 4 or 5 days driving around down there, head into northern italy then back
home via whatever seemed a nice route, perhaps the alps.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>
>>>When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>
>>>It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>
>>Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>>at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>
>But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>
>That was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation
>to remove a handful of cars from the roads.

There were similar services which didn't cost much to run like the
service through the Severn tunnel before the M4 bridge was built.

The photos I've seen show a large 2-6-2T, a non-corridor coach and a
bogie flat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport

During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]

Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>>
>>>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>>
>>>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>>
>>> Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>>> at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>>
>> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>>
>> That was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation
>> to remove a handful of cars from the roads.
>
> There were similar services which didn't cost much to run like the
> service through the Severn tunnel before the M4 bridge was built.
>
> The photos I've seen show a large 2-6-2T, a non-corridor coach and a
> bogie flat.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>
> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>

That's more comparable with the Swiss alpine tunnel car services, or
perhaps even Eurotunnel, than with multi-hour overnight journeys
potentially with multiple pick-up/drop-offs.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>>
>>>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>>
>>>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>>
>>> Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>>
>>> at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>>
>> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>
> There is that. But at current prices you're probably looking at 150-200 quid
> just in fuel to get to the south of france from calais. Then you need to factor
> in an overnight hotel stop for N people (unless you're up to doing 600 miles in
> one go) plus wear and tear on the car and the general hassle and risks of
> driving that far.
>
> Anything up to maybe 500 quid one way for a car + passengers I'd pay for it,
> spend 4 or 5 days driving around down there, head into northern italy then back
> home via whatever seemed a nice route, perhaps the alps.
>

A bit of extra driving at each end, admittedly, but Düsseldorf to Verona?
<https://www.autoreisezug-planer.de/motorail-services-in-germany>

Playing a little with their booking engine, however, reveals some
inconveniences. It seems to run about once a fortnight; you can only book a
return trip (extra cost even if you don't intent to use it); the car
transport is €300 each way but the costs of sleeping car compartment, or
couchettes, each way for a family adds €400-700 each way.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:04:50 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>>>
>>>>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>>>
>>>>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>>>
>>>> Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping
>off
>>>
>>>> at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>>>
>>> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>>
>> There is that. But at current prices you're probably looking at 150-200 quid
>
>> just in fuel to get to the south of france from calais. Then you need to
>factor
>> in an overnight hotel stop for N people (unless you're up to doing 600 miles
>in
>> one go) plus wear and tear on the car and the general hassle and risks of
>> driving that far.
>>
>> Anything up to maybe 500 quid one way for a car + passengers I'd pay for it,
>
>> spend 4 or 5 days driving around down there, head into northern italy then
>back
>> home via whatever seemed a nice route, perhaps the alps.
>>
>
>A bit of extra driving at each end, admittedly, but Düsseldorf to Verona?
><https://www.autoreisezug-planer.de/motorail-services-in-germany>
>
>Playing a little with their booking engine, however, reveals some
>inconveniences. It seems to run about once a fortnight; you can only book a
>return trip (extra cost even if you don't intent to use it); the car
>transport is €300 each way but the costs of sleeping car compartment, or
>couchettes, each way for a family adds €400-700 each way.

Might be an idea though having to book a return is a PITA. However dusseldorf
is a lot nearer than the med!

In message <tc0sge$3hf9k$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:57:17 on Fri, 29 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:

>On 29/07/2022 15:17, Roland Perry wrote:

>> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver. That
>>was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation to
>>remove a handful of cars from the roads.
>
>But they would now say it is 'green' abd get lots Brownie points from it,

Others would then say "it's greenwash".
--
Roland Perry

In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>>MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>>
>>>>When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>>empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>>force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>>
>>>>It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>>Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>>from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>>
>>>Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps
>>>stopping off
>>>at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>>
>>But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>>
>>That was always the issue with Motorail: a hugely loss-making operation
>>to remove a handful of cars from the roads.
>
>There were similar services which didn't cost much to run like the
>service through the Severn tunnel before the M4 bridge was built.
>
>The photos I've seen show a large 2-6-2T, a non-corridor coach and a
>bogie flat.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>
>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]

Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
--
Roland Perry

On 29/07/2022 16:43, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> There were similar services which didn't cost much to run like the
> service through the Severn tunnel before the M4 bridge was built.

And Connel Bridge - was it the first "motorail"?

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:

>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>
>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>
>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?

The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1]. In today's prices,
allowing for inflation, that's around £28.

That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.

The rail shuttle would have been more reliable, of course, and possibly a
little quicker, but it had to be booked in advance ("by letter, telegram or
telephone") and it only ran twice a day in each direction.

[1] Page 89 on https://tinyurl.com/msak6ya5 as shortened from
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=dfe5c6fe-2a0b-4235-a67e-961d9cc3c809
[2] https://tinyurl.com/3uutkm2w as shortened from
https://www.alamy.com/chepstow-uk-circa-september-2019-beachley-aust-ferry-tickets-at-chepstow-museum-image337482731.html

Mark

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:17:05 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tc09l1$dj3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 09:35:29 on Fri, 29 Jul
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Jul 2022 17:47:51 +0100
>>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>>> I was just looking up the start and end dates of Motorail.
>>>>>
>>>>> When the service ended, they had an unnecessary baggage car running
>>>>> empty on the sleep train to London, to avoid speed limits that come into
>>>>> force for safety reason if the trains were too short.
>>>>>
>>>>> It waas asked why they did not do this by continuing to add one of more
>>>>> Motorail vans and seating carriages but they would have had to hire them
>>>>> from a rolling stock leasing company.
>>>>
>>>> Wish they'd do a motorrail service to the south of france perhaps stopping off
>>>
>>>> at Paris on the way. I reckon it would be pretty popular.
>>>
>>> But not if priced to reflect what it would cost to deliver.
>>
>> There is that. But at current prices you're probably looking at 150-200 quid
>> just in fuel to get to the south of france from calais. Then you need to factor
>> in an overnight hotel stop for N people (unless you're up to doing 600 miles in
>> one go) plus wear and tear on the car and the general hassle and risks of
>> driving that far.
>>
>> Anything up to maybe 500 quid one way for a car + passengers I'd pay for it,
>> spend 4 or 5 days driving around down there, head into northern italy then back
>> home via whatever seemed a nice route, perhaps the alps.
>>
>
> A bit of extra driving at each end, admittedly, but Düsseldorf to Verona?
> <https://www.autoreisezug-planer.de/motorail-services-in-germany>
>
> Playing a little with their booking engine, however, reveals some
> inconveniences. It seems to run about once a fortnight; you can only book a
> return trip (extra cost even if you don't intent to use it); the car
> transport is €300 each way but the costs of sleeping car compartment, or
> couchettes, each way for a family adds €400-700 each way.

Oh, yes, of course! In 2018 we took the sleeper from Cologne to Innsbruck
(terminates) and on the front of the train there were some flats with cars
and motorbikes on them. We didn’t wait to see how they were unloaded.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>
>>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>
>>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>
>The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>
125.5p
See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
<snip>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>
>>>> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>
>>> Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>
>> The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>
> 125.5p

How do you work that out? I think it's 112.5p.