On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>
>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>
>>>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>
>>>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>
>>The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>
>125.5p
>See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
><snip>

Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?

Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.

Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
that much-heralded Monday.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>
>>>>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>
>>>>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>
>>>The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>
>>125.5p
>>See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>><snip>
>
>Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>
>Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>
>Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>that much-heralded Monday.

The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.

At the time, the pound was at $2.40 - so a new unit of 100 old pence
would have been a good idea.

But Britain is too (small c) conservative, and the pound was and still
is part of our national identity.

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>>><usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>>>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>>
>>>>>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>>>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>>>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>>>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>>
>>>>The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>>
>>>125.5p
>>>See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>>><snip>
>>
>>Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>>exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>>
>>Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>>and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>>
>>Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>>that much-heralded Monday.
>
>The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
>a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.

Your point being, to a then Dominion-ite from the South Pacific who
had intimate knowledge of £sd as a (manual) Payroll Person for about
five dozen employees under varying union contracts waitiing to receive
Fresh Multi-Coloured Notes on Tuesday, the day following DC Day in
Aotearoa!

My (and Recliner's) response was about the strict conversion value of
22/6.

Those were the days when a slash had a different meaning... <g>

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote:

....
> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of a
> pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.

Did it?

A plot of inflation against time shows just a tiny blip in 1971, it
really took off 4? years later with the oil crisis.

nib

On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of a
> pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.

1/200th of a pound - the decimal halfpenny was introduced at
decimalisation and not withdrawn until the 1980s. Though the smallest
unit until 1969 was 1/480th - the pre-decimal halfpenny - and the
farthing (1/960th) was only withdrawn in 1961.

The original Victorian-era decimalisation plan had the pound being
divided into 1000 mils, or 100 pennies, or 10 florins. One mil would be
worth very slightly less than one farthing.

Mike

On 30/07/2022 01:07, Nobody wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at 10:43:32 on
>>>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>>> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>>> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>>> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>>> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>>>>> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>>>>> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>>> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>>>>> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>>>
>>>>> The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>>>
>>>> 125.5p
>>>> See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>>> exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>>>
>>> Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>>> and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>>>
>>> Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>>> that much-heralded Monday.
>>
>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
>> a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>
> Your point being, to a then Dominion-ite from the South Pacific who
> had intimate knowledge of £sd as a (manual) Payroll Person for about
> five dozen employees under varying union contracts waitiing to receive
> Fresh Multi-Coloured Notes on Tuesday, the day following DC Day in
> Aotearoa!
>
> My (and Recliner's) response was about the strict conversion value of
> 22/6.
>
> Those were the days when a slash had a different meaning... <g>

So did Lsd.

On 30/07/2022 11:29, Certes wrote:
> On 30/07/2022 01:07, Nobody wrote:
>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
>> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 10:43:32 on
>>>>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>>>> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>>>> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>>>> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>>>> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the
>>>>>>>> tides,
>>>>>>>> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle
>>>>>>>> service was
>>>>>>>> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>>>> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading
>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>>>>
>>>>> 125.5p
>>>>> See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>> Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>>>> exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>>>>
>>>> Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>>>> and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>>>> that much-heralded Monday.
>>>
>>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
>>> a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>>
>> Your point being, to a then Dominion-ite from the South Pacific who
>> had intimate knowledge of £sd as a (manual) Payroll Person for about
>> five dozen employees under varying union contracts waitiing to receive
>> Fresh Multi-Coloured Notes on Tuesday, the day following DC Day in
>> Aotearoa!
>>
>> My (and Recliner's) response was about the strict conversion value of
>> 22/6.
>>
>> Those were the days when a slash had a different meaning... <g>
>
> So did Lsd.

An acid comment!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>
>>>During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the tides,
>>>or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle service was
>>>continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading to its
>>>discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>
>>Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>
>The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1]. In today's prices,
>allowing for inflation, that's around £28.
>
>That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
>(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
>that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.

The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.

Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
they were making huge operating losses.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 09:18:01 -0000 (UTC), nib
<news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>
>...
>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of a
>> pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>
>Did it?
>
>A plot of inflation against time shows just a tiny blip in 1971, it
>really took off 4? years later with the oil crisis.
>
>nib

Think of the weekly grocery bill, not the entire economy.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
>>(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
>>that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>>relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>
>The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>
>Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>they were making huge operating losses.

Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very few roads
make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford crossing and M6 Toll
perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads because they cost money to
maintain.

In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
>>>(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
>>>that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>>>relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>
>>The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>
>>Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>they were making huge operating losses.
>
>Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very few roads
>make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford crossing and M6 Toll
>perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads because they cost money to
>maintain.

Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny
amount of electricity to raise the barriers at the M6 Toll) because the
cost of conveyance is externalised to the travelers. Who also pay per
mile to use the road via their full duty - if an internal combustion
engine. The M6 toll is 27 miles, and I reckon that this raises around
£2.50 for the Treasury (on top of the £7 I paid as a toll).

Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 06:03:47 +0100
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>>That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
>>>>(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
>>>>that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>>>>relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>>
>>>The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>>hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>>
>>>Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>>all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>>they were making huge operating losses.
>>
>>Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very few roads
>>make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford crossing and M6 Toll
>>perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads because they cost money to
>>maintain.
>
>Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny

Really? So they don't require any maintenance of the surface, drainage,
traffic lights, street lights, signage, miscellanious road furniture? It all
just lasts forever?

>Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
>lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.

Irrelevant. Railways were a public utility to many communities. That didn't
stop Beeching.

In message <tc5ao4$s18$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 07:24:52 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 06:03:47 +0100
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>>>Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>>That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d in 1966
>>>>>(65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my guess is
>>>>>that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>>>>>relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>>>
>>>>The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>>>hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>>>
>>>>Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>>>all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>>>they were making huge operating losses.
>>>
>>>Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very few roads
>>>make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford crossing and M6 Toll
>>>perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads because they cost money to
>>>maintain.
>>
>>Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny
>
>Really? So they don't require any maintenance of the surface, drainage,
>traffic lights, street lights, signage, miscellanious road furniture? It all
>just lasts forever?

That's maintenance, and like railways, does happen. I was talking about
*operating* costs for each individual passenger mile.

>>Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
>>lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.
>
>Irrelevant. Railways were a public utility to many communities. That didn't
>stop Beeching.

Many of the lines which didn't get closed, and now cost a fortune to
operate, survived because they did provide an important and less easily
substituted (for example by a new bus service) utility.

The ones which closed tended to have a handful of passenger trains a day
(or sometime none, by then the stations en-route having closed, and just
a small amount of through freight traffic remaining).

Most of the lines were built to carry freight, and one that had been
transferred to road by societal changes after WW2, there simply wasn't
sufficient demand from the public for passenger travel.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 30/07/2022 11:29, Certes wrote:
>> On 30/07/2022 01:07, Nobody wrote:
>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
>>> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 10:43:32 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>>>>> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>>>>> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>>>>> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>>>>> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the
>>>>>>>>> tides,
>>>>>>>>> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle
>>>>>>>>> service was
>>>>>>>>> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>>>>> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading
>>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>>> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> 125.5p
>>>>>> See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>>>>> exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>>>>> and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>>>>> that much-heralded Monday.
>>>>
>>>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
>>>> a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>>>
>>> Your point being, to a then Dominion-ite from the South Pacific who
>>> had intimate knowledge of £sd as a (manual) Payroll Person for about
>>> five dozen employees under varying union contracts waitiing to receive
>>> Fresh Multi-Coloured Notes on Tuesday, the day following DC Day in
>>> Aotearoa!
>>>
>>> My (and Recliner's) response was about the strict conversion value of
>>> 22/6.
>>>
>>> Those were the days when a slash had a different meaning... <g>
>>
>> So did Lsd.
>
> An acid comment!

Like groovy, man!

Sam (who does actually remember the 60s)

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 31/07/2022 10:15, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 30/07/2022 11:29, Certes wrote:
>>> On 30/07/2022 01:07, Nobody wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
>>>> <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 16:21:55 -0700, Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 23:18:13 +0100, Charles Ellson
>>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:56 +0100, Mark Goodge
>>>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 17:26:50 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <sou7eh1681bau4ho3bnqr5lajm2vmq0chi@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>> 10:43:32 on
>>>>>>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severn_Tunnel#Car_transport
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> During 1924, the Great Western Railway started a car shuttle train
>>>>>>>>>> service using the tunnel, which would transport cars on rail trucks
>>>>>>>>>> through the tunnel between Pilning and Severn Tunnel Junction. The
>>>>>>>>>> service functioned as a rail-based alternative to the Aust Ferry,
>>>>>>>>>> which was operated under an erratic timetable determined by the
>>>>>>>>>> tides,
>>>>>>>>>> or lengthy road journeys via Gloucester. The rail shuttle
>>>>>>>>>> service was
>>>>>>>>>> continued after the end of World War II, but was ultimately made
>>>>>>>>>> redundant by the opening of the Severn Bridge in 1966, leading
>>>>>>>>>> to its
>>>>>>>>>> discontinuation shortly thereafter.[15]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, but what was the fare, and did it reflect the operating cost?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The fare in 1962 was 22s 6d, or £1.15 in decimal[1].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 125.5p
>>>>>>> See also "they will round everything up with decimalisation" ;-)
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Splinters in finger from scratching head vigorously: wooden tit in
>>>>>> exactitude before any rounding be 112.5p?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank goodness NZ followed RSA and Oz by splitting at ten shillings,
>>>>>> and thus bits on DC Day were rounded both down and up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, the 55th anniversary just passed three weeks ago: 10 July 1967,
>>>>>> that much-heralded Monday.
>>>>>
>>>>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of
>>>>> a pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>>>>
>>>> Your point being, to a then Dominion-ite from the South Pacific who
>>>> had intimate knowledge of £sd as a (manual) Payroll Person for about
>>>> five dozen employees under varying union contracts waitiing to receive
>>>> Fresh Multi-Coloured Notes on Tuesday, the day following DC Day in
>>>> Aotearoa!
>>>>
>>>> My (and Recliner's) response was about the strict conversion value of
>>>> 22/6.
>>>>
>>>> Those were the days when a slash had a different meaning... <g>
>>>
>>> So did Lsd.
>>
>> An acid comment!
>
> Like groovy, man!
>
> Sam (who does actually remember the 60s)
>

In which case you weren't really there!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 31/07/2022 06:03, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d
>>>> in 1966
>>>> (65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating costs, my
>>>> guess is
>>>> that the rail shuttle was priced to cover costs, which is why it was
>>>> relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>>
>>> The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>> hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>>
>>> Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>> all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>> they were making huge operating losses.
>>
>> Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very few
>> roads
>> make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford crossing and M6
>> Toll
>> perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads because they cost money to
>> maintain.
>
> Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny
> amount of electricity to raise the barriers at the M6 Toll) because the
> cost of conveyance is externalised to the travelers. Who also pay per
> mile to use the road via their full duty - if an internal combustion
> engine. The M6 toll is 27 miles, and I reckon that this raises around
> £2.50 for the Treasury (on top of the £7 I paid as a toll).
>
> Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
> lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.

It is not correct to say roads cost nothing to operate.

The following needs be paid for:-
Police control rooms for the motorways
Policing costs for roads
NHS costs for accidents
Fire service costs for accidents
Building new roads
Maintaining existing roads
Operation Stack
Department for roads in all four counties
Local authority costs (road closures etc)
Plus whatever I've forgotten

On 31/07/2022 10:27, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> It is not correct to say roads cost nothing to operate.
>
> The following needs be paid for:-
> Police control rooms for the motorways
> Policing costs for roads
> NHS costs for accidents
> Fire service costs for accidents
> Building new roads
> Maintaining existing roads
> Operation Stack
> Department for roads in all four counties
> Local authority costs (road closures etc)
> Plus whatever I've forgotten

Not correct to say all rail costs paid by the railways

Taxpayer pays for
Police control rooms for road traffic around railway stations
Police costs for major rail accidents
NHS costs for rail accidents
Fire costs for rail accidents
Road infrastructure around railway stations and maintenance of it
Policing regular strikes by railway unions
Not sure what "Department for roads in all four counties" means

In message <tc5lab$95mj$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:25:14 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 31/07/2022 10:27, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> It is not correct to say roads cost nothing to operate.
>> The following needs be paid for:-
>> Police control rooms for the motorways
>> Policing costs for roads
>> NHS costs for accidents
>> Fire service costs for accidents
>> Building new roads
>> Maintaining existing roads
>> Operation Stack
>> Department for roads in all four counties
>> Local authority costs (road closures etc)
>> Plus whatever I've forgotten
>
>Not correct to say all rail costs paid by the railways
>
>Taxpayer pays for
>Police control rooms for road traffic around railway stations
>Police costs for major rail accidents
>NHS costs for rail accidents
>Fire costs for rail accidents

And "rail accidents" is rather more than just trains getting derailed.
We shouldn't forget about suicides enabled by the railway
infrastructure, all the way to people working in the rail company HQ
tripping over and breaking their leg.

>Road infrastructure around railway stations and maintenance of it
>Policing regular strikes by railway unions
>Not sure what "Department for roads in all four counties" means

"all four countries", I expect.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tc5htv$8bcd$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:27 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 31/07/2022 06:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
>>2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d
>>>>>in 1966 (65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating
>>>>>costs, my guess is that the rail shuttle was priced to cover
>>>>>costs, which is why it was relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>>>
>>>> The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>>> hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>>> all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>>> they were making huge operating losses.
>>>
>>> Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very
>>>few roads make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford
>>>crossing and M6 Toll perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads
>>>because they cost money to maintain.

>> Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny
>>amount of electricity to raise the barriers at the M6 Toll) because
>>the cost of conveyance is externalised to the travelers. Who also pay
>>per mile to use the road via their full duty - if an internal
>>combustion engine. The M6 toll is 27 miles, and I reckon that this
>>raises around £2.50 for the Treasury (on top of the £7 I paid as a toll).
>> Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
>>lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.
>
>It is not correct to say roads cost nothing to operate.
>
>The following needs be paid for:-
>Police control rooms for the motorways
>Policing costs for roads
>NHS costs for accidents
>Fire service costs for accidents
>Building new roads
>Maintaining existing roads
>Operation Stack
>Department for roads in all four counties
>Local authority costs (road closures etc)
>Plus whatever I've forgotten

Is your solution to make all roads toll-roads? After all, railways are
overwhelmingly toll-railways, with almost everyone paying a fare.

What toll would you charge ambulances? More, I expect, because they want
other people to get out of their way.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tc5htv$8bcd$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:27:27 on Sun, 31 Jul
> 2022, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 31/07/2022 06:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <tc3fba$gou$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 14:31:06 on Sat, 30 Jul
>>> 2022, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 11:47:40 +0100
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <1c48ehpaubaishu388pjl59ioe8lvl8hip@4ax.com>, at 18:38:56 on
>>>>> Fri, 29 Jul 2022, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> That was much more expensive than the Aust Ferry, which was 11s 6d
>>>>>> in 1966 (65p in decimal)[2]. So, without knowing the operating
>>>>>> costs, my guess is that the rail shuttle was priced to cover
>>>>>> costs, which is why it was relatively unpopular compared to the ferry.
>>>>>
>>>>> The complaint in BR days was the they had no idea what anything cost,
>>>>> hence bleeding to death on the lines that Beeching identified.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, there's an argument that many of those "Beeching lines" (not
>>>>> all of which closed) were performing a social good, but there's no doubt
>>>>> they were making huge operating losses.
>>>>
>>>> Though as is always pointed out but politicians never listen, very
>>>> few roads make any money at all , never mind a profit. Dartford
>>>> crossing and M6 Toll perhaps. Yet they never suggest closing roads
>>>> because they cost money to maintain.
>
>>> Apples and Oranges. Roads cost nothing to operate (OK, maybe a tiny
>>> amount of electricity to raise the barriers at the M6 Toll) because
>>> the cost of conveyance is externalised to the travelers. Who also pay
>>> per mile to use the road via their full duty - if an internal
>>> combustion engine. The M6 toll is 27 miles, and I reckon that this
>>> raises around £2.50 for the Treasury (on top of the £7 I paid as a toll).
>>> Roads also have a public utility for things like ambulances and bin
>>> lorries, neither of which applies to the railways.
>>
>> It is not correct to say roads cost nothing to operate.
>>
>> The following needs be paid for:-
>> Police control rooms for the motorways
>> Policing costs for roads
>> NHS costs for accidents
>> Fire service costs for accidents
>> Building new roads
>> Maintaining existing roads
>> Operation Stack
>> Department for roads in all four counties
>> Local authority costs (road closures etc)
>> Plus whatever I've forgotten
>
> Is your solution to make all roads toll-roads? After all, railways are
> overwhelmingly toll-railways, with almost everyone paying a fare.

Road pricing is likely to replace our existing vehicle and fuel taxes, when
we get a government brave enough to do it. Rather than the highly complex
schemes that have been proposed here, it's likely to be a flat rate per
mile, rising with vehicle weight (so BEVs will be more highly taxed than
ICE cars). There will be pressure for all sorts of exemptions and discounts
(eg, for taxis, public service vehicles, or people living in rural areas),
but with every discount comes an evasion loophole, so it's best to keep it
simple.

>
> What toll would you charge ambulances? More, I expect, because they want
> other people to get out of their way.

The same per mile as other vehicles of the same weight.

On 31/07/2022 12:07, Recliner wrote:
> There will be pressure for all sorts of exemptions and discounts
> (eg, for taxis, public service vehicles, or people living in rural areas),
> but with every discount comes an evasion loophole, so it's best to keep it
> simple.

That is OK if you live in an urban area with mainly short distances and
good public transport.

On 31/07/2022 11:47, Roland Perry wrote:
> And "rail accidents" is rather more than just trains getting derailed.
> We shouldn't forget about suicides enabled by the railway
> infrastructure, all the way to people working in the rail company HQ
> tripping over and breaking their leg.

I was just joking!

We could charge Network Rail when one of their bridges is too low and
hits a vehicle so causing traffic problems.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 31/07/2022 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>> There will be pressure for all sorts of exemptions and discounts
>> (eg, for taxis, public service vehicles, or people living in rural areas),
>> but with every discount comes an evasion loophole, so it's best to keep it
>> simple.
>
> That is OK if you live in an urban area with mainly short distances and
> good public transport.
>

People in rural areas trade higher transport costs for much lower property
costs.

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 18:38:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee wrote:
>> The decimal pound meant that the smallest price increment was 1/100 of a
>> pound instead of 1/240 - setting off inflation.
>
> 1/200th of a pound - the decimal halfpenny was introduced at
> decimalisation and not withdrawn until the 1980s. Though the smallest
> unit until 1969 was 1/480th - the pre-decimal halfpenny - and the
> farthing (1/960th) was only withdrawn in 1961.
>
> The original Victorian-era decimalisation plan had the pound being
> divided into 1000 mils, or 100 pennies, or 10 florins. One mil would be
> worth very slightly less than one farthing.
>
> Mike
>

Hence the florin or two shilling piece which was the only coin issued from
the Victorian era plan.
Without the plan which was soon abandoned there was probably little need
for a coin whose function was already cared for by the Half Crown which was
not hugely more valuable.
Still once introduced the florin proved useful enough to survive to be
converted to ten new pence at Decimalisation which meant along with
shillings a coin issued in the 19th century could be used until the size
change in 1992.

GH

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 31/07/2022 12:07, Recliner wrote:
>>> There will be pressure for all sorts of exemptions and discounts
>>> (eg, for taxis, public service vehicles, or people living in rural areas),
>>> but with every discount comes an evasion loophole, so it's best to keep it
>>> simple.
>>
>> That is OK if you live in an urban area with mainly short distances and
>> good public transport.
>>
>
> People in rural areas trade higher transport costs for much lower property
> costs.
>
>

I’m not sure that is true for many areas where it is a desirable place to
live ,Cornwall for instance
where Fisherman can no longer afford to live in the small fishing ports and
have to commute in
from small towns like Redruth . Similar with agricultural workers who now
can’t live in a village near the farms they work but drive in from a small
town estate. This creates more traffic as the more well off who have moved
in from London and surrounds driven out by even more wealthy people from
abroad now commute out of the villages to the motorway or railway station
meeting the farm workers, care workers etc commuting the other way.
So a once rural road often single track gradually goes from a cheaply
maintained road resurfaced
about once in 15 years with a bit of paint to one thats gets eroded on the
edges needing constan repair then widened , then come more signs that have
to be maintained followed by some traffic lights or illuminated bollards
and a cheap to maintain country lane becomes a more expensive thoroughfare
needing constant attention.

GH