Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
£8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.

On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>
>

The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.

We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
different users 24/7.

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>
> We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
> but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
> different users 24/7.
>
>

I think rail fares cover a much higher proportion of infrastructure costs
than coach fares. And the lanes on a motorway are much more heavily used (a
vehicle every few seconds, rather than trains 5-10 minutes apart) than a
main line rail track.

Beyond that, the two staff on a coach probably earn less between them than
a train driver, the coach costs a small fraction of railway coach, seat
utilisation is probably much higher, and coaches only run when there's
demand. Coaches don't need high tech signalling systems and the manpower to
operate them.

On 31/07/2022 00:25, Recliner wrote:
> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>>
>> We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
>> but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
>> different users 24/7.
>>
>>
>
> I think rail fares cover a much higher proportion of infrastructure costs
> than coach fares. And the lanes on a motorway are much more heavily used (a
> vehicle every few seconds, rather than trains 5-10 minutes apart) than a
> main line rail track.
>
> Beyond that, the two staff on a coach probably earn less between them than
> a train driver, the coach costs a small fraction of railway coach, seat
> utilisation is probably much higher, and coaches only run when there's
> demand. Coaches don't need high tech signalling systems and the manpower to
> operate them.
>

I just go with the rail, when and where I can. I have travelled on
long-distance coach, and it was not fun.

In message <tc4193$3v290$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:37:07 on Sat, 30 Jul
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
>> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
>> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
>> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
>> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
>> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
>> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
>> Coach has two crew.

You forgot the railway station staff, signalmen en route etc.

>>Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>
>The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.

And the coach is cheaper per seat to build, plus they timetable them so
that they have high load factors most of the time.

To head off some quibbles, the cheapest AP fare with railcard is £3.60
--
Roland Perry

In message <tc42ml$3v7sk$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:01:24 on Sat, 30 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>
>We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
>but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
>different users 24/7.

And the rail infrastructure is paid for largely by central government
subsidies (circa 7bn in 2019, which is also roughly the same as the cost
of running Network Rail. The TOCs on the other hand spend a different
7bn on running trains plus another billion on track access charges.

Fares are famously not "per mile", and lines such as the ECML are a cash
cow used to cross-subsidise loss-making routes (of which ironically
Scotrail has a rather large number).

As much as £10 of to OP's walk-up train fare could be transferred to
loss-making routes, rather than go towards funding *that* particular
flow.

Coaches, on the other hand, are more likely to be run on an individual
cost-plus basis.
--
Roland Perry

hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 31/07/2022 00:25, Recliner wrote:
>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>> On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>>>
>>> We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
>>> but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
>>> different users 24/7.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think rail fares cover a much higher proportion of infrastructure costs
>> than coach fares. And the lanes on a motorway are much more heavily used (a
>> vehicle every few seconds, rather than trains 5-10 minutes apart) than a
>> main line rail track.
>>
>> Beyond that, the two staff on a coach probably earn less between them than
>> a train driver, the coach costs a small fraction of railway coach, seat
>> utilisation is probably much higher, and coaches only run when there's
>> demand. Coaches don't need high tech signalling systems and the manpower to
>> operate them.
>>
>
> I just go with the rail, when and where I can. I have travelled on
> long-distance coach, and it was not fun.

Indeed; despite all the cost savings, there is a major drawback to
travelling by coach and that is that you have to travel by coach.

Lew

On 31/07/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
> Fares are famously not "per mile", and lines such as the ECML are a cash
> cow used to cross-subsidise loss-making routes (of which ironically
> Scotrail has a rather large number).

And the buses and coaches in Scotland are free to many people if they
have an 'Entitlement Card'.

Lew 1 <email@nowhere.com> wrote:
> hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 31/07/2022 00:25, Recliner wrote:
>>> MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
>>>> On 30/07/2022 20:37, Graeme Wall wrote:
>>>>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>>>>
>>>> We seem to also pay for the railway infrastructure one way or another
>>>> but it is more economic to have infrastructure than can be used by many
>>>> different users 24/7.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think rail fares cover a much higher proportion of infrastructure costs
>>> than coach fares. And the lanes on a motorway are much more heavily used (a
>>> vehicle every few seconds, rather than trains 5-10 minutes apart) than a
>>> main line rail track.
>>>
>>> Beyond that, the two staff on a coach probably earn less between them than
>>> a train driver, the coach costs a small fraction of railway coach, seat
>>> utilisation is probably much higher, and coaches only run when there's
>>> demand. Coaches don't need high tech signalling systems and the manpower to
>>> operate them.
>>>
>>
>> I just go with the rail, when and where I can. I have travelled on
>> long-distance coach, and it was not fun.
>
> Indeed; despite all the cost savings, there is a major drawback to
> travelling by coach and that is that you have to travel by coach.
>
> Lew
>
>

Well yes. The coach I mentioned takes 11.5 hours from London to Glasgow.
I’m surprised coach travel is allegedly one of the safest forms of long
distance travel. The driver got off at Berwick for a quick smoke. He looked
late 50s early 60s and looked terrible. He had to haul himself back on to
the coach. It did look sort of doubtful that he’d make it as far as
Glasgow.

In message <tc56sl$5fpu$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:19:01 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 31/07/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Fares are famously not "per mile", and lines such as the ECML are a cash
>> cow used to cross-subsidise loss-making routes (of which ironically
>> Scotrail has a rather large number).
>
>And the buses and coaches in Scotland are free to many people if they
>have an 'Entitlement Card'.

The same is true of buses in England (I would have had a free trip last
weekend, rather than having to fork out for a rail ticket, had the bus
company not been on strike). Like the OP, the time was about the same,
and the bus was hourly (whereas the train much lumpier, with some 2hr
gaps during the day), and would have saved me a 40 minute walk to the
railway station.

What's slightly less clear is what is included, in the way of "express
coaches". Are the Scottish entitlement cards really accepted by National
Express, for example? In England we have various "X" routes, operated by
local bus companies, and sometimes they have what looks a lot like
coaches.

--
Roland Perry

On 31/07/2022 07:56, Tweed wrote:
> Well yes. The coach I mentioned takes 11.5 hours from London to Glasgow.
> I’m surprised coach travel is allegedly one of the safest forms of long
> distance travel. The driver got off at Berwick for a quick smoke. He looked
> late 50s early 60s and looked terrible. He had to haul himself back on to
> the coach. It did look sort of doubtful that he’d make it as far as
> Glasgow.

And train drivers are all a picture of health?

I think both types of drivers have regular medical checks.

on 30/07/2022, Graeme Wall supposed :
> On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
>> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
>> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
>> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
>> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
>> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
>> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
>> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>>
>>
>
> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.

Well, given that the wear and tear on the road infrastructure is
proportional to the 4th power of axle load, it is clear that all
motorists heavily subsidize buses and trucks. A typical car has
an axle load of, say, 750 kg, while a truck can have up to 7.500 kg,
so 10 times more. A truck therefore generates as much wear and tear
as 10.000 ordinary cars. But do they pay 10.000 more taxes ? Nah !

--
Marc Van Dyck

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 31/07/2022 07:56, Tweed wrote:
>> Well yes. The coach I mentioned takes 11.5 hours from London to Glasgow.
>> I’m surprised coach travel is allegedly one of the safest forms of long
>> distance travel. The driver got off at Berwick for a quick smoke. He looked
>> late 50s early 60s and looked terrible. He had to haul himself back on to
>> the coach. It did look sort of doubtful that he’d make it as far as
>> Glasgow.
>
> And train drivers are all a picture of health?
>
> I think both types of drivers have regular medical checks.
>

Train driver: every three years to age 55 then every year.

Bus driver: initial medical valid until age 45, then every 5 years until 65
then every year.

I believe the standards for train drivers are higher too, but I'm not 100%
sure and without access to the relevant standards.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Marc Van Dyck <marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
> on 30/07/2022, Graeme Wall supposed :
>> On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
>>> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
>>> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
>>> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
>>> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
>>> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
>>> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
>>> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>
> Well, given that the wear and tear on the road infrastructure is
> proportional to the 4th power of axle load, it is clear that all
> motorists heavily subsidize buses and trucks. A typical car has
> an axle load of, say, 750 kg, while a truck can have up to 7.500 kg,
> so 10 times more. A truck therefore generates as much wear and tear
> as 10.000 ordinary cars. But do they pay 10.000 more taxes ? Nah !
>

That depends whether the 10,000 cars are EVs and low-emission ICE, or
whether they're high-emissions gas guzzlers! ;)

10,000 x £0 = £0

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 31/07/2022 09:18, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <tc56sl$5fpu$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:19:01 on Sun, 31 Jul
> 2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>> On 31/07/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Fares are famously not "per mile", and lines such as the ECML are a cash
>>> cow used to cross-subsidise loss-making routes (of which ironically
>>> Scotrail has a rather large number).
>>
>> And the buses and coaches in Scotland are free to many people if they
>> have an 'Entitlement Card'.
>
> The same is true of buses in England (I would have had a free trip last
> weekend, rather than having to fork out for a rail ticket, had the bus
> company not been on strike). Like the OP, the time was about the same,
> and the bus was hourly (whereas the train much lumpier, with some 2hr
> gaps during the day), and would have saved me a 40 minute walk to the
> railway station.
>
> What's slightly less clear is what is included, in the way of "express
> coaches". Are the Scottish entitlement cards really accepted by National
> Express, for example? In England we have various "X" routes, operated by
> local bus companies, and sometimes they have what looks a lot like coaches.
>

"Your National Entitlement Card gives you free travel throughout
Scotland on nearly all local registered and long-distance scheduled bus
services. Only a few services, such as premium-fare night buses and City
Sightseeing buses, do not accept the card."

https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled/

--
Colin

In message <mn.fad37e67b7765dc6.104627@invalid.skynet.be>, at 12:03:24
on Sun, 31 Jul 2022, Marc Van Dyck <marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be>
remarked:
>on 30/07/2022, Graeme Wall supposed :
>> On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
>>> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
>>> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
>>> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
>>> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
>>> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
>>> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
>>> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>>
>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>
>Well, given that the wear and tear on the road infrastructure is
>proportional to the 4th power of axle load, it is clear that all
>motorists heavily subsidize buses and trucks. A typical car has
>an axle load of, say, 750 kg, while a truck can have up to 7.500 kg,
>so 10 times more. A truck therefore generates as much wear and tear
>as 10.000 ordinary cars. But do they pay 10.000 more taxes ? Nah !

Fixing wear and tear on the road surface is a relatively small part of
the cost of maintaining them (let alone "operating" them).
--
Roland Perry

In message <tc5kru$92bc$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:34 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Marc Van Dyck <marc.gr.vandyck@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>> on 30/07/2022, Graeme Wall supposed :
>>> On 30/07/2022 17:58, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
>>>> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
>>>> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
>>>> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
>>>> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
>>>> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
>>>> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.
>>>
>>> The taxpayer pays for the infrastructure, not the coach company.
>>
>> Well, given that the wear and tear on the road infrastructure is
>> proportional to the 4th power of axle load, it is clear that all
>> motorists heavily subsidize buses and trucks. A typical car has
>> an axle load of, say, 750 kg, while a truck can have up to 7.500 kg,
>> so 10 times more. A truck therefore generates as much wear and tear
>> as 10.000 ordinary cars. But do they pay 10.000 more taxes ? Nah !
>
>That depends whether the 10,000 cars are EVs and low-emission ICE, or
>whether they're high-emissions gas guzzlers! ;)
>
>10,000 x £0 = £0

VED (or even fuel duty/VAT) is not the only tax that EV drivers pay as a
result of their purchase and usage.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 16:58:28 -0000 (UTC), Tweed wrote:

> Just dispatched my son on a Berwick to Glasgow National Express coach. The
> warnings about Cross Country trains being packed inspired us to consider
> this option. Both journeys take around two and a half hours, as there is a
> train change at Edinburgh. The coach also goes via Edinburgh but only stops
> for 5 minutes. I was surprised that the timings were so similar. Coach fare
> £8 without any form of discount. Cheapest train fare £30 with rail card.
> Coach has two crew. Just wondering how the coach is so cheap.

Price is not directly proportional to cost.

On 31/07/2022 11:46, ColinR wrote:
> "Your National Entitlement Card gives you free travel throughout
> Scotland on nearly all local registered and long-distance scheduled bus
> services. Only a few services, such as premium-fare night buses and City
> Sightseeing buses, do not accept the card."

Does not see to cover trams, they seem to be classed same as railways.

There are also local variations, I can travel free (as a foot passenger)
on ferries in Highland region, there a couple places where a taxi is
used for the local 'bus' service and they are free.

On 31/07/2022 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:
> Fixing wear and tear on the road surface

That's a new concept! They will say they fix potholes next! :-)

MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 31/07/2022 07:56, Tweed wrote:
>> Well yes. The coach I mentioned takes 11.5 hours from London to Glasgow.
>> I’m surprised coach travel is allegedly one of the safest forms of long
>> distance travel. The driver got off at Berwick for a quick smoke. He looked
>> late 50s early 60s and looked terrible. He had to haul himself back on to
>> the coach. It did look sort of doubtful that he’d make it as far as
>> Glasgow.
>
> And train drivers are all a picture of health?
>
> I think both types of drivers have regular medical checks.
>
>

Part of the extra cost of train travel is the cost to maintain the
infrastructure that should make it the safer form of travel, some of that
will be the way a train should come to safely to a halt if the driver has a
serious medical episode that incapacitates them and at least a train does
not need steering.
A coach whose driver has a heart attack has no such provision .
The number of passengers who make the decision to travel by train and pay a
few pounds more because of that though is probably very small as
considering the number of coaches on the road the chances of being on one
that has a serious accident are quite remote.
With all passengers having a seat and a seat belt a coach won’t have
passengers injured by being thrown around unless it is a really serious
prang , trains will have vehicles that are stronger but when a crash does
happen you will be as likely to be hurt by effect of a person weighing 18
stone being thrown into you as rather than the crash itself not mention
luggage . A least in a coach large luggage
can go in its own compartment a facility that is no longer available on
most trains .

GH

In message <tc5mhq$9f52$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:46:20 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 31/07/2022 09:18, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <tc56sl$5fpu$2@dont-email.me>, at 07:19:01 on Sun, 31 Jul
>>2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> On 31/07/2022 06:33, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Fares are famously not "per mile", and lines such as the ECML are a cash
>>>> cow used to cross-subsidise loss-making routes (of which ironically
>>>> Scotrail has a rather large number).
>>>
>>> And the buses and coaches in Scotland are free to many people if
>>>they have an 'Entitlement Card'.
>> The same is true of buses in England (I would have had a free trip
>>last weekend, rather than having to fork out for a rail ticket, had
>>the bus company not been on strike). Like the OP, the time was about
>>the same, and the bus was hourly (whereas the train much lumpier,
>>with some 2hr gaps during the day), and would have saved me a 40
>>minute walk to the railway station.
>> What's slightly less clear is what is included, in the way of
>>"express coaches". Are the Scottish entitlement cards really accepted
>>by National Express, for example? In England we have various "X"
>>routes, operated by local bus companies, and sometimes they have what
>>looks a lot like coaches.
>>
>
>"Your National Entitlement Card gives you free travel throughout
>Scotland on nearly all local registered and long-distance scheduled bus
>services. Only a few services, such as premium-fare night buses and
>City Sightseeing buses, do not accept the card."
>
>https://www.transport.gov.scot/concessionary-travel/60plus-or-disabled/

Perhaps a few commas would clarify exactly what they are saying.

Is National Express any (or all, that's not clear either):

Local
Registered
Scheduled
Bus
--
Roland Perry

In message <tc5pdv$a3cb$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:35:27 on Sun, 31 Jul
2022, MB <MB@nospam.net> remarked:
>On 31/07/2022 11:49, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Fixing wear and tear on the road surface
>
>That's a new concept! They will say they fix potholes next! :-)

And round here potholes are not mainly caused by the heaviness (or not)
of the vehicles, but frost damage and plain simple subsidence.
--
Roland Perry

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 09:18:30 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
> What's slightly less clear is what is included, in the way of "express
> coaches". Are the Scottish entitlement cards really accepted by National
> Express, for example? In England we have various "X" routes, operated by
> local bus companies, and sometimes they have what looks a lot like
> coaches.

There's not really a distinction in Scotland - the "coach" routes tend to
double as local buses in town. Citylink is certainly included in the
scheme - see https://www.citylink.co.uk/travelling-with-citylink/tickets/
discount-tickets-and-savings/ . I can't find a clear statement either way
on NX but I don't see any reason why not. They're not "premium fare" or
"sightseeing" buses. However the scheme only extends to Berwick and
Carlisle, any further into England and you need a paid ticket, which
limits how useful this is on cross-border services.

Mike