I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
now?
Brian

--

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briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!

On 03/10/2022 09:51, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
> now?
> Brian
>

Satellites either get moved to less profitable slots and often renamed.

They also often end up in inclined orbits to eke out the remaining fuel
supplies before finally being moved to a graveyard orbit......

S.

On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100, "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
>yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
>systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
>now?
> Brian

DBS are designed to last 10 years.
--

Martin in Zuid Holland

On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 09:51:04 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
> now?
> Brian
>
> --
>
> --:
> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Seven to ten years is fairly typical.

DBS satellites are fairly dumb. Each transponder receives a signal on ~14GHz and rebroadcasts it on ~10GHz.

Each transponder channel is 30Mhz wide and by alternating the polarity can be 15MHz apart.

The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.

On 03/10/2022 11:13, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 09:51:04 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
>> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
>> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
>> now?
>> Brian
>>
>> --
>>
>> --:
>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>
>
> Seven to ten years is fairly typical.
>
> DBS satellites are fairly dumb. Each transponder receives a signal on ~14GHz and rebroadcasts it on ~10GHz.
>
> Each transponder channel is 30Mhz wide and by alternating the polarity can be 15MHz apart.
>
> The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.

D2-MAC? Ooohh thats a blast from the past! I remember the Pace D100
decoder hooked up to a Pace MSS300 reciever!

The D2MAC channels were on Sirius 5.0 East and Thor / Intelsat 1.0 West....

Now long gone!

On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched,
> and yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they
> all actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern
> broadcast systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to
> third world areas now?
> Brian

The moon has been there for quite a while.

Brian Gaff wrote:

> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
> actually doing?

They only contain enough propellant to perform "station keeping" for a certain
number of years, after that they're on borrowed time and can't actually start
geostationary

On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100
"Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being
> launched, and yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning,
> what are they all actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not
> work with modern broadcast systems or are clapped out, or is there a
> growth in DBS to third world areas now?
> Brian
>

It's nice to see a post using the word 'satellite' correctly, instead
of having it refer to a satellite dish, which is an all-too common use.
Thank you Brian.

Don't forget that china and Russia use them for target practice.
--
Davey.

On 03/10/2022 11:13, R. Mark Clayton wrote:
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 09:51:04 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
>> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
>> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
>> now?
>> Brian
>>
>> --
>>
>> --:
>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>
>
> Seven to ten years is fairly typical.
>
> DBS satellites are fairly dumb. Each transponder receives a signal on ~14GHz and rebroadcasts it on ~10GHz.
>
> Each transponder channel is 30Mhz wide and by alternating the polarity can be 15MHz apart.
>
> The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.

I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
which had previously escaped me :(

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 15:23:22 UTC+1, Robin wrote:

> >
> > The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.
> I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
> shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
> which had previously escaped me :(

I can't think what's going on here.

Bill

On 03/10/2022 19:48, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 15:23:22 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.
>> I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
>> shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
>> which had previously escaped me :(
>
> I can't think what's going on here.
>

morally vs modally

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Well some are up there still being used well after that time, if you look on
some of the lists you can download. Not sure why they would want one in an
inclined orbit, as the whole point was that they seem to be static in the
sky. It would be silly to have a sat that moved in little circles as viewed
from earth, surely?

I did wonder why they don't use gyros and ion thrusters as that should make
things a lot longer lasting. As you say there are graveyard orbits, and one
supposes fuel is kept to achieve them, which seems wasteful. I wonder why
nobody decided to launch fuel tankers so they could be refuelled on orbit.
Most are in the same plane, so moving between them should be relatively
easy. OK its a long way up, but launching a whole new sat is always risky.
Brian

--

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"Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:2ubljh512316kig6u17mqnmfu9g3g4u2op@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100, "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched,
>>and
>>yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>>actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern
>>broadcast
>>systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world
>>areas
>>now?
>> Brian
>
> DBS are designed to last 10 years.
> --
>
> Martin in Zuid Holland
>
>
>

I know at least one of them has a Ham radio repeater on it, working at a
high frequency as well, whether this utilised the same hardware or not I do
not know.

At least then you do not have the same Doppler problems you have on low
earth orbiting ones.

So, I'd have thought the different transmission standards would alter the
duty cycle of the power devices doing the transmitting. What powers are
used, I guess a lot depends on the footprint being aimed for and the gain
over the bandwidth of the aerial.
Brian

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"R. Mark Clayton" <notyalckram@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d85a226-94e9-4091-9d9c-3893ea03794fn@googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 09:51:04 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched,
>> and
>> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern
>> broadcast
>> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world
>> areas
>> now?
>> Brian
>>
>> --
>>
>> --:
>> This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
>> The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
>
>
> Seven to ten years is fairly typical.
>
> DBS satellites are fairly dumb. Each transponder receives a signal on
> ~14GHz and rebroadcasts it on ~10GHz.
>
> Each transponder channel is 30Mhz wide and by alternating the polarity can
> be 15MHz apart.
>
> The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC,
> DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally
> redundant.

No, mortally perhaps. You can after all be mortally wounded, but can you use
that term to a non living piece of space hardware.
Incidentally, what became of Marco Polo and its Squarial receivers?
Brian

--

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"wrightsaerials@aol.com" <wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:4d1bd5ea-c132-455c-b8cc-3b63bf13c827n@googlegroups.com...
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 15:23:22 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
>
>> >
>> > The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC,
>> > DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become
>> > morally redundant.
>> I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
>> shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
>> which had previously escaped me :(
>
> I can't think what's going on here.
>
> Bill

Hmm, not sure that would be that clear either, as it implies it has on board
a lot of modes of operation, something I'm not really aware of. I know some
have additional functions paid for by third parties, often to do with
sensing or comms like telemetry, which often do differ.
Brian

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"Robin" <rbw@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:ed06be9e-5ae5-abea-4185-a86319b9231d@outlook.com...
> On 03/10/2022 19:48, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
>> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 15:23:22 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC,
>>>> DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become
>>>> morally redundant.
>>> I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
>>> shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
>>> which had previously escaped me :(
>>
>> I can't think what's going on here.
>>
>
> morally vs modally
>
> --
> Robin
> reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

and... How does that connect? There is only one moon, with DBS sats there
are many and all in the same orbit.
Brian

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"jon" <jon@nospam.cn> wrote in message news:thedj8$250ug$2@dont-email.me...
> On Mon, 03 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched,
>> and yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they
>> all actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern
>> broadcast systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to
>> third world areas now?
>> Brian
>
> The moon has been there for quite a while.

So with the solar wind, how come they are not all bumping into each other?
Brian

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"Andy Burns" <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote in message
news:jq02ebFh5afU1@mid.individual.net...
> Brian Gaff wrote:
>
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched,
>> and
>> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
>> actually doing?
>
> They only contain enough propellant to perform "station keeping" for a
> certain number of years, after that they're on borrowed time and can't
> actually start geostationary

Well, I think the target practice is mainly in low earth orbit otherwise
there would be so much junk about we would be stuck on the planet or
building spacecraft made of rubber.
Brian

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"Davey" <davey@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:ther1d$27odr$3@dont-email.me...
> On Mon, 3 Oct 2022 09:51:00 +0100
> "Brian Gaff" <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being
>> launched, and yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning,
>> what are they all actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not
>> work with modern broadcast systems or are clapped out, or is there a
>> growth in DBS to third world areas now?
>> Brian
>>
>
> It's nice to see a post using the word 'satellite' correctly, instead
> of having it refer to a satellite dish, which is an all-too common use.
> Thank you Brian.
>
> Don't forget that china and Russia use them for target practice.
> --
> Davey.
>

On 04/10/2022 12:06, Brian Gaff wrote:
> No, mortally perhaps. You can after all be mortally wounded, but can you use
> that term to a non living piece of space hardware.
> Incidentally, what became of Marco Polo and its Squarial receivers?
> Brian
>

Marco Polo 1 and Marco Polo 2 had 5 transponders each so could support
broadcasting of up to 10 channels (assuming no redundancy)

They were launched as part of the Ill fated British Sky Broadcasting. I
don't recall what satellite orbital slot it went to.

At launch there was 5 TV channels in D2 Mac.

Sky Television lauched to Astra 19.2E. Later, it merged with BSB to form
BSkyB.

The two Marcopolo satellites were sold off, one went to NSAB who
operated 5.0 East and one of the Marcopolos became Sirius 1.

The othetr Marcopolo was sold to Telenor who operated 1.0 West. That
Marcopolo became Thor 1.

Both Marcopolos are now end of lifed and in a graveyard orbit somewhere.

On 04/10/2022 12:41, SH wrote:
> On 04/10/2022 12:06, Brian Gaff wrote:
>> No, mortally perhaps. You can after all be mortally wounded, but can
>> you use
>> that term to a non living piece of space hardware.
>>   Incidentally, what became of Marco Polo and its Squarial receivers?
>>   Brian
>>
>
> Marco Polo 1 and Marco Polo 2 had 5 transponders each so could support
> broadcasting of up to 10 channels (assuming no redundancy)
>
> They were launched as part of the Ill fated British Sky Broadcasting. I
> don't recall what satellite orbital slot it went to.
>
> At launch there was 5 TV channels in D2 Mac.
>
> Sky Television lauched to Astra 19.2E. Later, it merged with BSB to form
> BSkyB.
>
> The two Marcopolo satellites were sold off, one went to NSAB who
> operated 5.0 East and one of the Marcopolos became Sirius 1.
>
> The othetr Marcopolo was sold to Telenor who operated 1.0 West. That
> Marcopolo became Thor 1.
>
> Both Marcopolos are now end of lifed and in a graveyard orbit somewhere.
>

Found my answer, The two Marcopolos were originally at 31 West (which is
not far from the current Hispasat C and D at 30.0 West!

Sirius 1 moved to graveyard in 2003 and Thor 1 moved to Graveyard in the
same year.

Both Marcopolos were launched in 1989 and 1990 respectively.

S.

On 04/10/2022 12:02, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I know at least one of them has a Ham radio repeater on it, working at a
> high frequency as well, whether this utilised the same hardware or not I do
> not know.

As far as I am aware, the OSCAR satellites are not geosynchronous and
not HF, the original one was 144 MHz but later ones were on various
bands in VHF, UHF and higher (I think).

If they're not completely full up with broadcast TV and radio then some
of the available bandwidth is usually available to be hired for
relatively short periods (typically a few hours but down to just minutes
is possible) and is used for feeds from outside broadcasts, feeds or
backup feeds to regional transmitters, and similar uses. Even though
most feeds are encrypted I've been able to watch quite a few interesting
ones on occasion even though the dish available for me to use is fixed
and only points at Astra 2 at 28.2°E.

On 03/10/2022 09:51, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I just wondered, as geosynchronous ones still seem to be being launched, and
> yet direct sat broadcasting does seem to be waning, what are they all
> actually doing? Is it just that old ones will not work with modern broadcast
> systems or are clapped out, or is there a growth in DBS to third world areas
> now?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Completely different uplink frequency.
The Downlink frequency seems to be just below the frequencies used for
DBS downlink.

Narrowband Linear transponder (for all narrowband modes)
2400.050 - 2400.300 MHz Uplink
10489.550 - 10489.800 MHz Downlink

Wideband digital transponder (For amateur digital TV)
2401.500 - 2409.500 MHz Uplink
10491.000 - 10499.000 MHz Downlink

On 04/10/2022 12:02, Brian Gaff wrote:
> I know at least one of them has a Ham radio repeater on it, working at a
> high frequency as well, whether this utilised the same hardware or not I do
> not know.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).

Brian Gaff wrote:

> Well some are up there still being used well after that time, if you
> look on some of the lists you can download. Not sure why they would
> want one in an inclined orbit, as the whole point was that they seem
> to be static in the sky. It would be silly to have a sat that moved
> in little circles as viewed from earth, surely?
>
Snip
> Brian

I've transmitted to an old Astra satellite that was in an inclined
orbit. This was for SNG (Satellite News Gathering). We had the ability
to automatically track the figure of eight movement of the satellite.

--

On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 19:48:05 UTC+1, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, 3 October 2022 at 15:23:22 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
>
> > >
> > > The satellite knows nothing of the signal structure (analogue, D2-MAC, DVB-S, DVB-S2 etc.) nor encryption [if any], so they do not become morally redundant.
> > I perpetrate so many typos that I truly comment only to say I spent a
> > shameful number of seconds wondering if that was a meaning of 'morally'
> > which had previously escaped me :(
> I can't think what's going on here.
>
> Bill

An item which is worn out or served its purpose is physically redundant - e.g. old car, empty non-returnable bottle.

An item which was made for a purpose no longer utilised is morally redundant - e.g. videocrypt decoder, analogue mobile phone, VHF TV aerial - even if it would still function.