Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
unaware of.

https://slp-northampton.com/

What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
in demand come from?

In message <tefr8o$kq0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:40:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
>a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>unaware of.
>
>https://slp-northampton.com/
>
>What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
>then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
>in demand come from?

We've discussed this sort of thing in the past, when debating about
whether HS2 to an "East Midlands Hub" is a good thing on account of
freeing up some freight paths on the classic lines (to these new freight
terminals).

Hell, yes.

As for why some are congregating in that part of the country, it's all
to do with agglomeration[1], and the onward motorways etc. East Midlands
Airport started it off, and is the UK's busiest freight airport
(although I think Heathrow handles the most by *value* rather than
*volume*).

It may be just observer bias, but I'm pretty sure there's another huge
collection of such warehouses growing on the east of Peterborough.
Pretty much anything I order online from multiple suppliers goes through
there via a retailer/courier depot [it's about 40 miles by white van,
and I feel happy if I can do it in an hour in my car].

There are others in places like Milton Keynes, but I don't know if they
are growing fast at the moment.

[1] It makes sense for suppliers [manufacturers/importers] and customers
[Amazon and other increasingly online large retailers and their
couriers] to build their depots close to each other.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <tefr8o$kq0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:40:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>> unaware of.
>>
>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>
>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
>> in demand come from?
>
> We've discussed this sort of thing in the past, when debating about
> whether HS2 to an "East Midlands Hub" is a good thing on account of
> freeing up some freight paths on the classic lines (to these new freight
> terminals).
>
> Hell, yes.
>
> As for why some are congregating in that part of the country, it's all
> to do with agglomeration[1], and the onward motorways etc. East Midlands
> Airport started it off, and is the UK's busiest freight airport
> (although I think Heathrow handles the most by *value* rather than
> *volume*).

East Midlands is the second busiest freight airport, a very long way behind
Heathrow, and a little ahead of Stansted.
<https://www.statista.com/statistics/303659/air-freight-at-selected-airports-in-the-uk/>

In message <teg062$l9ao$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:04:34 on Sun, 28 Aug
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <tefr8o$kq0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:40:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>>> unaware of.
>>>
>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>
>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this
>>>step change
>>> in demand come from?
>>
>> We've discussed this sort of thing in the past, when debating about
>> whether HS2 to an "East Midlands Hub" is a good thing on account of
>> freeing up some freight paths on the classic lines (to these new freight
>> terminals).
>>
>> Hell, yes.
>>
>> As for why some are congregating in that part of the country, it's all
>> to do with agglomeration[1], and the onward motorways etc. East Midlands
>> Airport started it off, and is the UK's busiest freight airport
>> (although I think Heathrow handles the most by *value* rather than
>> *volume*).
>
>East Midlands is the second busiest freight airport, a very long way behind
>Heathrow, and a little ahead of Stansted.

><https://www.statista.com/statistics/303659/air-freight-at-selected-airp
>orts-in-the-uk/>

Clearly, some people's descriptions vary. I knew Heathrow led on value,
but the way a lot of people talk they also lead on volume. Or is that
volume-at-a-primarily non-passenger airport?

Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <teg062$l9ao$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:04:34 on Sun, 28 Aug
> 2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <tefr8o$kq0e$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:40:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>>> 2022, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
>>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>>>> unaware of.
>>>>
>>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>
>>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
>>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this
>>>> step change
>>>> in demand come from?
>>>
>>> We've discussed this sort of thing in the past, when debating about
>>> whether HS2 to an "East Midlands Hub" is a good thing on account of
>>> freeing up some freight paths on the classic lines (to these new freight
>>> terminals).
>>>
>>> Hell, yes.
>>>
>>> As for why some are congregating in that part of the country, it's all
>>> to do with agglomeration[1], and the onward motorways etc. East Midlands
>>> Airport started it off, and is the UK's busiest freight airport
>>> (although I think Heathrow handles the most by *value* rather than
>>> *volume*).
>>
>> East Midlands is the second busiest freight airport, a very long way behind
>> Heathrow, and a little ahead of Stansted.
>
>> <https://www.statista.com/statistics/303659/air-freight-at-selected-airp
>> orts-in-the-uk/>
>
> Clearly, some people's descriptions vary. I knew Heathrow led on value,
> but the way a lot of people talk they also lead on volume. Or is that
> volume-at-a-primarily non-passenger airport?

As the statistics clealy show, Heathrow has almost five times the tonnage
of freight as East Midlands. In fact, it has more tonnage than all the
other UK airports combined.

>
> Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
> airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.

You made the comment, so I assume you have a source?

Before the pandemic, Heathrow usually handled about 47 cargo flights per
week.

On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>
> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to be
> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
> unaware of.
>
> https://slp-northampton.com/
>
> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69 and
> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
> in demand come from?
>

One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
centre.

I am waiting to see just how much "rail" use occurs on the site of
Parkside Colliery (Newton Le Willows), which had "rail distribution
centre" included in the original applications - but being so near to
other freight facilities in the Liverpool, Widnes (Ditton) & Manchester
(Trafford Park) areas, how many railfreight operators will want to spend
money on another facility in the same general area.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:

> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
> completely unaware of.
>
> https://slp-northampton.com/
>
> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
> this step change in demand come from?

Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
any trainload runs over 100 miles.
Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.

The East Midlands M&S branch at Castle Donnington is one that just isnt
used as it was proposed. I think some coaches are stored on it now, it
hasnt seen a working train for many years, and never had a regular
schedule. The Prologis Park at Coventry is another underused example, 15
miles from Daventry, little traffic did use it, and the tracks are rusted
now. There was another proposal for an interchange on the MML near to
Bedford, that was topped by Planners, but I think they have appealed the
decision.
If you want to see how many containers trains a day there are, go to
Rugby station, and watch there. it can be a procession of container
trains waiting for a path, containers trains from the East and South
coasts, and intermodals heading North and South. The MML around Leicester
is also very busy, with container trains and a lot of aggregate trains
from the local quarries.

On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:27:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>>
>> Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
>> airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.
>
>You made the comment, so I assume you have a source?
>
>Before the pandemic, Heathrow usually handled about 47 cargo flights per
>week.

Interesting. I'd believed that ALL Heathrow freight was conveyed in
passenger aircraft.

Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:
>
>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
>> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>> completely unaware of.
>>
>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>
>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
>> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
>> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
>> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
>> this step change in demand come from?
>
> Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
> deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
> Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
> any trainload runs over 100 miles.
> Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
> interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
> reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
> couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
> which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
> single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.

Why is a run around required at Ipswich?

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:27:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
>>> airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.
>>
>> You made the comment, so I assume you have a source?
>>
>> Before the pandemic, Heathrow usually handled about 47 cargo flights per
>> week.
>
> Interesting. I'd believed that ALL Heathrow freight was conveyed in
> passenger aircraft.
>

No, you can often see air freighters parked at the large cargo terminal.
It's visible from some of the lounges in T3 and T5.

Slots at Heathrow are precious at peak times, but there are other times
when demand for passenger slots is low, so freighters can use them.

For example:
<https://www.dreamstime.com/london-united-kingdom-august-qatar-airways-cargo-airbus-f-airplane-london-heathrow-airport-lhr-united-kingdom-airbus-image177699777>

<https://www.dreamstime.com/air-bridge-cargo-boeing-aircraft-surrey-uk-september-th-shot-air-bridge-cargo-vp-bim-boeing-aircraft-pictured-shortly-image159878571>

<https://www.dreamstime.com/editorial-photo-dhl-cargo-plane-takes-off-london-uk-july-london-heathrow-airport-image95995836>

Am 29.08.2022 um 10:34 schrieb Ken:
> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:27:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
>>> airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.
>>
>> You made the comment, so I assume you have a source?
>>
>> Before the pandemic, Heathrow usually handled about 47 cargo flights per
>> week.
>
> Interesting. I'd believed that ALL Heathrow freight was conveyed in
> passenger aircraft.

I remember stats from my childhood (1980's) that Heathrow was by far
thae largest airport in (western?) Europe, dominating both passengers
and freight.

For passengers, Gatwick was number 2 and FRA number 3 while for freight
FRA was number 2.

In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>to be
>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>> unaware of.
>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>M69 and
>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
>> in demand come from?
>>
>
>One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>centre.

Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
--
Roland Perry

On 29/08/2022 10:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>>  Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>> to be
>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>> completely
>>> unaware of.
>>>  https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>  What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>> M69 and
>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step
>>> change
>>> in demand come from?
>>>
>>
>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>> railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>> permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>> centre.
>
> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".

They are building HS2, or so we are told.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>> to be
>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was completely
>>> unaware of.
>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>> M69 and
>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step change
>>> in demand come from?
>>>
>>
>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>> railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>> permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>> centre.
>
> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".

Actually, there are now moves to provide more freight paths, at the expense
of little-used passenger services. It's now recognised that a 1600 tonne
freight train is more valuable to the railway and the country than a
two-car DMU with 16 people on board.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29/08/2022 10:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>>>  Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>>> to be
>>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>> completely
>>>> unaware of.
>>>>  https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>  What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>>> M69 and
>>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step
>>>> change
>>>> in demand come from?
>>>>
>>>
>>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>>> railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>>> permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>>> centre.
>>
>> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
>> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
>> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
>
> They are building HS2, or so we are told.

Not the only bit of HS2 that Roland cares about, his beloved Toton Parkway.

On 29 Aug 2022 at 12:17:44 PM EEST, "Rolf Mantel" <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

> Am 29.08.2022 um 10:34 schrieb Ken:
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 19:27:16 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Or is "busy" in such comments the number of freighters using the
>>>> airport, which is probably not very many for Heathrow.
>>>
>>> You made the comment, so I assume you have a source?
>>>
>>> Before the pandemic, Heathrow usually handled about 47 cargo flights per
>>> week.
>>
>> Interesting. I'd believed that ALL Heathrow freight was conveyed in
>> passenger aircraft.
>
> I remember stats from my childhood (1980's) that Heathrow was by far
> thae largest airport in (western?) Europe, dominating both passengers
> and freight.

Not any more of course, and while that can mostly be attributed to the
uniquely bad management of Covid and air travel in the UK, Heathrow (8th
busiest in Europe in 2021*) has looked likely to lose its crown for a little
while now. Since 2016 (I'll leave others to speculate what happened then)
growth rates at CDG in particular, but also Schipol and Frankfurt, have
consistently exceeded Heathrow's, and CDG would probably have overtaken
Heathrow within the next year or two even without Covid.

> For passengers, Gatwick was number 2 and FRA number 3 while for freight
> FRA was number 2.

Are you sure about that? Looking at data on Wonkypedia, and without being
entirely sure if they're counting the same thing, Frankfurt looks like it was
carrying around about twice as many passengers as Gatwick for most of the 80s?
And indeed Paris Orly looks like it was probably busier than Gatwick.

Maybe Gatwick was 2nd for /international/ traffic?

That said, the most surprising thing looking at those Wonkypedia numbers is
how small CDG was back in the 80s. Quite phenomenal growth there...

* Of course 2022 figures aren't in yet, but in the first six months of this
year CDG had carried roughly the same number of passengers as Heathrow (25
million), but since then of course Heathrow has introduced a passenger cap at
around 75% of that figure - as far as I know CDG hasn't, and while more recent
passenger data isn't available on average this year according to Eurocontrol
CDG is operating roughly 10% more flights a day than Heathrow Y2D. It
will be interesting to see if Heathrow can regain its crown in 2023...

On 29/08/2022 09:58, Recliner wrote:
> Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:
>>
>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
>>> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>> completely unaware of.
>>>
>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>
>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
>>> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
>>> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
>>> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
>>> this step change in demand come from?
>>
>> Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
>> deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
>> Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
>> any trainload runs over 100 miles.
>> Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
>> interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
>> reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
>> couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
>> which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
>> single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.
>
> Why is a run around required at Ipswich?
>

Any liner trains travelling from Felixstowe via Bury St. Edmunds have to
reverse direction at Ipswich. Some Freightliner services travelling via
the London suburbs just swap locos at Ipswich - diesel to electric, or
vice versa.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:16:33 +0100, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 29/08/2022 09:58, Recliner wrote:
>> Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
>>>> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>> completely unaware of.
>>>>
>>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>
>>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
>>>> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
>>>> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
>>>> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
>>>> this step change in demand come from?
>>>
>>> Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
>>> deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
>>> Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
>>> any trainload runs over 100 miles.
>>> Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
>>> interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
>>> reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
>>> couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
>>> which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
>>> single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.
>>
>> Why is a run around required at Ipswich?
>>
>
>Any liner trains travelling from Felixstowe via Bury St. Edmunds have to
>reverse direction at Ipswich.

Why wouldn't they just take the Bacon Factory Curve and the Europa Junction?

> Some Freightliner services travelling via
>the London suburbs just swap locos at Ipswich - diesel to electric, or
>vice versa.

Or do most just use diesel locos for the whole route?

In message <tei32u$10nma$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:06:22 on Mon, 29 Aug
2022, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 29/08/2022 10:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>>2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>>>  Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It
>>>>claims to be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The
>>>>latter I was completely unaware of.

>>>>  https://slp-northampton.com/

>>>>  What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by
>>>>the M69 and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail
>>>>freight terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other
>>>>motorway junction. There’s logistics parks springing up
>>>>everywhere. Where has this step change in demand come from?
>>>>
>>>
>>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including
>>>a railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>>>permission for what might just become another lorry-based
>>>distribution centre.

>> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say
>>"and where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given
>>that unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
>
>They are building HS2, or so we are told.

But currently only as far as Birmingham (and a spur towards Crewe).
Which doesn't help the East Midlands, and the whole thing might get
the chop by the next PM.
--
Roland Perry

In message <tei3aj$10p3v$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:10:27 on Mon, 29 Aug
2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 29/08/2022 10:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>  Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>>>> to be
>>>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>>> completely
>>>>> unaware of.
>>>>>  https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>>  What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>>>> M69 and
>>>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step
>>>>> change
>>>>> in demand come from?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>>>> railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>>>> permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>>>> centre.
>>>
>>> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
>>> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
>>> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
>>
>> They are building HS2, or so we are told.
>
>Not the only bit of HS2 that Roland cares about, his beloved Toton Parkway.

(a) It's not the only bit I care about and
(b) That's not its name - but if you think it is, that rather confirms
your blinkers.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/08/2022 12:23, Recliner wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:16:33 +0100, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 29/08/2022 09:58, Recliner wrote:
>>> Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
>>>>> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>>> completely unaware of.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
>>>>> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
>>>>> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
>>>>> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
>>>>> this step change in demand come from?
>>>>
>>>> Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
>>>> deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
>>>> Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
>>>> any trainload runs over 100 miles.
>>>> Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
>>>> interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
>>>> reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
>>>> couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
>>>> which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
>>>> single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.
>>>
>>> Why is a run around required at Ipswich?
>>>
>>
>> Any liner trains travelling from Felixstowe via Bury St. Edmunds have to
>> reverse direction at Ipswich.
>
> Why wouldn't they just take the Bacon Factory Curve and the Europa Junction?
>
I had forgotten about that - I have not been to that area since the 1990s.
>
>> Some Freightliner services travelling via
>> the London suburbs just swap locos at Ipswich - diesel to electric, or
>> vice versa.
>
> Or do most just use diesel locos for the whole route?

Some operators do use diesels throughout, but Freightliner uses Class
90s (sometimes in pairs) for some services travelling via WCML.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:29:28 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:

>In message <tei3aj$10p3v$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:10:27 on Mon, 29 Aug
>2022, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/08/2022 10:58, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <teggop$n54h$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:47:40 on Sun, 28 Aug
>>>> 2022, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 28/08/2022 14:40, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>  Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims
>>>>>> to be
>>>>>> a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>>>> completely
>>>>>> unaware of.
>>>>>>  https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>>>  What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the
>>>>>> M69 and
>>>>>> then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight terminals
>>>>>> seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway junction.
>>>>>> There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has this step
>>>>>> change
>>>>>> in demand come from?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One has to be wary of "kidology". Sometimes the promise of including a
>>>>> railfreight terminal can be used to assist in obtaining planning
>>>>> permission for what might just become another lorry-based distribution
>>>>> centre.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
>>>> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
>>>> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
>>>
>>> They are building HS2, or so we are told.
>>
>>Not the only bit of HS2 that Roland cares about, his beloved Toton Parkway.
>
>(a) It's not the only bit I care about and
>(b) That's not its name - but if you think it is, that rather confirms
> your blinkers.

I know it's not its name. It's really called the Toton Albino Pachyderm (or Hub for short).

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:44:48 +0100, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 29/08/2022 12:23, Recliner wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 12:16:33 +0100, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/08/2022 09:58, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 28 Aug 2022 13:40:40 +0000, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just drove past a big construction site off J15 of the M1. It claims to
>>>>>> be a logistics park and rail freight interchange. The latter I was
>>>>>> completely unaware of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://slp-northampton.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What with this, Daventry, one just off the M1 being planned by the M69
>>>>>> and then just by East Midlands Airport, these alleged rail freight
>>>>>> terminals seems to be springing up at seemingly every other motorway
>>>>>> junction. There’s logistics parks springing up everywhere. Where has
>>>>>> this step change in demand come from?
>>>>>
>>>>> Containers for import, and train load UK deliveries. The price of lorry
>>>>> deliveries is driving the change, as the Train Freight Operating
>>>>> Companies are a very lean machine now, and can beat road transport for
>>>>> any trainload runs over 100 miles.
>>>>> Tesco has upped its Daventry to Mossend deliveries, in fact the Daventry
>>>>> interchange has doubled in size recently. The East Midlands one has
>>>>> reached its capacity, and is expanding. London Gateway port opened a
>>>>> couple of years ago, and is doing well, an alternative to Felixstowe,
>>>>> which is having trouble with strikes and capacity, the line is still
>>>>> single in places, and a run round required at Ipswich do not help matters.
>>>>
>>>> Why is a run around required at Ipswich?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Any liner trains travelling from Felixstowe via Bury St. Edmunds have to
>>> reverse direction at Ipswich.
>>
>> Why wouldn't they just take the Bacon Factory Curve and the Europa Junction?
>>
>I had forgotten about that - I have not been to that area since the 1990s.

I travelled on it soon after it opened, on a charter train.

>>
>>> Some Freightliner services travelling via
>>> the London suburbs just swap locos at Ipswich - diesel to electric, or
>>> vice versa.
>>
>> Or do most just use diesel locos for the whole route?
>
>Some operators do use diesels throughout, but Freightliner uses Class
>90s (sometimes in pairs) for some services travelling via WCML.
>

Yes, it's a pity the route isn't electrified the whole way.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:58:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".

There are paths for them, but, they are in the middle of the night.
For various reasons, the FOCs try to run as much as possible in the day,
wages, loading/unloading etc are all subject to increased rates in the
night, along with fewer Staff wanting to work night shifts, hence the day
time is full of freight train paths.

Alan <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2022 10:58:17 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Yes, that happens. Not sure why the planners aren't allowed to say "and
>> where do you think all these trains will be coming from, given that
>> unless they build HS2 there won't be any paths for them".
>
> There are paths for them, but, they are in the middle of the night.
> For various reasons, the FOCs try to run as much as possible in the day,
> wages, loading/unloading etc are all subject to increased rates in the
> night, along with fewer Staff wanting to work night shifts, hence the day
> time is full of freight train paths.
>

I hope the above doesn’t mean we are justifying building HS2 simply because
FOCs don’t want to pay the extra costs of night working.