Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
deny it was what he said.

The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
will stop making it

On Sat 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have
> a constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
> didn't deny it was what he said.
>
> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>

I think there is a word missing there - we don't have a WRITTEN
constitution. If CF did say written then the BBC is correct, but if he
didn't then the BBC is definitely in the wrong.

On 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
> deny it was what he said.
>
> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.

I thought the Manx Parliament was older?

From the reply, it seems he might have left out one word from his
comment (or you misheard him) so hardly seems a reason to shut down what
is still probably the greatest broadcasting organisation in the world.

Have you ever tried complaining to any of the other channels, do they
even have mechanisms to handle complaints?

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:05:12 +0000, Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Sat 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have
>> a constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
>> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
>> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
>> didn't deny it was what he said.
>>
>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>
>I think there is a word missing there - we don't have a WRITTEN
>constitution. If CF did say written then the BBC is correct, but if he
>didn't then the BBC is definitely in the wrong.

Actually, a lot of it probably is written - just not all in one place.

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 09:18:42 +0000, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
>> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>> deny it was what he said.
>>
>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>
>
>I thought the Manx Parliament was older?

I thought the Icelandic Parliament was.

In article <xn0nx3wu444naeu006@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
<jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:

> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
> didn't deny it was what he said.

> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.

There is no written constitution

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 21/01/2023 in message <tqg9s8$2hfug$1@dont-email.me> Woody wrote:

>On Sat 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>>our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>>reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>>into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>>deny it was what he said.
>>
>>The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>
>I think there is a word missing there - we don't have a WRITTEN
>constitution. If CF did say written then the BBC is correct, but if he
>didn't then the BBC is definitely in the wrong.

He didn't say "written" which is why I challenged it, they accepted that
as well otherwise they would have pointed out that I had missed "written".

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Those are my principles – and if you don’t like them, well, I have
others.
(Groucho Marx)

On 21/01/2023 at 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
> deny it was what he said.
>
> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>

And that's a reason for destroying a world-recognised and acclaimed
British institution?
--
Wilf

But we don't have one do we? Governments can rewrite the law and do so all
the time. As for the bib, I have noticed of late that if they put up an
email for them, nobody ever gets back to you, It seems far worse if its the
crowd at media City in Salford. I mean its hardly rocket science to send an
automated reply to the effect that your email has been opened is it?

What is the point in soliciting comment if it never is being read?
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:xn0nx3wu444naeu006@news.individual.net...
>
> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
> deny it was what he said.
>
> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>
> --
> Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
> If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
> will stop making it

On 21/01/2023 10:00, charles wrote:
> In article <xn0nx3wu444naeu006@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
>> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
>> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
>> didn't deny it was what he said.
>
>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>
> There is no written constitution
>

The UK constitution is largely in writing. What we don't have is a
codified constitution in a single document. That's unusual but not unique.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 21/01/2023 in message <tqggoh$2ilrk$1@dont-email.me> Wilf wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 at 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
>>constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>>reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>>into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>>deny it was what he said.
>>
>>The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>
>And that's a reason for destroying a world-recognised and acclaimed
>British institution?

One of many, many reasons. It's lack of impartiality being the main one,
if it leant any further to the left it would fall over.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
The first five days after the weekend are the hardest.

Morning Brian.

We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a constitution,
which is evidenced in writing in many ways.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
You can't tell which way the train went by looking at the tracks

On 21/01/2023 in message <tqgh2v$2inno$1@dont-email.me> Brian Gaff wrote:

>But we don't have one do we? Governments can rewrite the law and do so all
>the time. As for the bib, I have noticed of late that if they put up an
>email for them, nobody ever gets back to you, It seems far worse if its
>the crowd at media City in Salford. I mean its hardly rocket science to
>send an automated reply to the effect that your email has been opened is
>it?
>
>What is the point in soliciting comment if it never is being read?
>Brian

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:41 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 10:00, charles wrote:
>> In article <xn0nx3wu444naeu006@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>>> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
>>> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
>>> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
>>> didn't deny it was what he said.
>>
>>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>> There is no written constitution
>>
>The UK constitution is largely in writing. What we don't have is a
>codified constitution in a single document. That's unusual but not unique.

Indeed, very topically at the moment, New Zealand does not have a
codified constitution.

On 21/01/2023 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld?

No, usually they only ever give bland equivocal replies to complaints.

> Christian
> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have
> a constitution.

We don't as such, there is no single document or similar source that you
could identify as our constitution. While you could claim that our
'constitution' is the sum total of the procedures governing the workings
of Parliament and all the legislation ever passed by Parliament that has
not since been revoked, wide ranging though that is, even that seems to
be a debatable and ambiguous definition, for the same sorts of reasons
that even the 'official' so-called 'definition' is somewhat vague and
ambiguous:

https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/commons-committees/political-and-constitutional-reform/The-UK-Constitution.pdf

"Status:

The United Kingdom constitution is composed of the laws and rules
that create the institutions of the state, regulate the relationships
between those institutions, or regulate the relationship between the
state and the individual.

These laws and rules are not codified in a single, written document.
Constitutional laws and rules have no special legal status."

Although IANAL, the above doesn't actually identify any of the the said
"laws and rules" - what laws and rules, and is it all of them, some of
them, or what exactly? - so I would say even the official definition
is ambiguous and open to interpretation, which in itself is a proof that
the claim that we don't have a constitution must be correct, since
no-one has defined unambiguously and exactly what it is.

> I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world.

You are wrong in many of these claims, which are worthless jingoism.

> I got the usual
> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
> didn't deny it was what he said.

He was right.

> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.

The sooner you understand the British system of government the better.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 21/01/2023 11:12, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> One of many, many reasons. It's lack of impartiality being the main one,
> if it leant any further to the left it would fall over.

The usual complaint of one who has leaned too far to the right and has
fallen over mentally.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 21 Jan 2023 11:12:37 GMT, "Jeff Gaines" <jgnewsid@outlook.com>
wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 in message <tqggoh$2ilrk$1@dont-email.me> Wilf wrote:
>
>>On 21/01/2023 at 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>>Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>>Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>>constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>>democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and our
>>>constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>>>reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>>>into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>>>deny it was what he said.
>>>
>>>The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>>
>>
>>And that's a reason for destroying a world-recognised and acclaimed
>>British institution?
>
>One of many, many reasons. It's lack of impartiality being the main one,
>if it leant any further to the left it would fall over.

Selective reporting
Cult of the personality
Populist presentational style

I believe in plurality of sources but I wouldn't abolish the BBC
though.

On 21/01/2023 11:14, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
> We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a
> constitution, which is evidenced in writing in many ways.

As already explained to you, we don't have a constitution because no-one
can define unambiguously what it is. You are welcome to try to define
it, but I bet you can't come up with a definition that is both
unambiguous and widely agreed upon.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:08:09 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
<brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:

>But we don't have one do we? Governments can rewrite the law and do so all
>the time. As for the bib, I have noticed of late that if they put up an
>email for them, nobody ever gets back to you, It seems far worse if its the
>crowd at media City in Salford. I mean its hardly rocket science to send an
>automated reply to the effect that your email has been opened is it?
>
>What is the point in soliciting comment if it never is being read?

Unfortunately, I think this represents a wider decline of email.

I tried to contact British Gas by email as I wanted to send
attachments. Not possible.

I tried to contact John Lewis by mail about a subject that did not fit
any of the boxes in their web-based system. We no longer monitor
this email address.

On 21/01/2023 11:02, Wilf wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 at 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>> our
>> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>> deny it was what he said.
>>
>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>
> And that's a reason for destroying a world-recognised and acclaimed
> British institution?

Not by itself. But it is a tiny further example of a BBC culture of
"never admit we were wrong and never apologise"[1]. It wasn't a point
that requires sanction or correction. But when they won't even accept
that he was wrong then they come across as no different from any other
political body with an agenda of its own.

[1] well, not until faced with the risk of legal action and heavy costs

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:22:45 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 11:14, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a
>> constitution, which is evidenced in writing in many ways.
>
>As already explained to you, we don't have a constitution because no-one
>can define unambiguously what it is. You are welcome to try to define
>it, but I bet you can't come up with a definition that is both
>unambiguous and widely agreed upon.

Do we not have common law either then?

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:25:59 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 11:02, Wilf wrote:
>> On 21/01/2023 at 08:47, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>>> our
>>> constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual bland
>>> reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to put it
>>> into a context where it would be a true statement, although they didn't
>>> deny it was what he said.
>>>
>>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>>
>>
>> And that's a reason for destroying a world-recognised and acclaimed
>> British institution?
>
>Not by itself. But it is a tiny further example of a BBC culture of
>"never admit we were wrong and never apologise"[1]. It wasn't a point
>that requires sanction or correction. But when they won't even accept
>that he was wrong then they come across as no different from any other
>political body with an agenda of its own.
>
>[1] well, not until faced with the risk of legal action and heavy costs

You certainly make a valid point. I used to listen to Feedback before
Roger Bolton was removed (for giving the BBC a hard time?). Whatever
the issue, the BBC invariably always said the listener(s) were wrong
and the BBC knew better.

On 21/01/2023 11:22, Java Jive wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 11:14, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a
>> constitution, which is evidenced in writing in many ways.
>
> As already explained to you, we don't have a constitution because no-one
> can define unambiguously what it is.  You are welcome to try to define
> it, but I bet you can't come up with a definition that is both
> unambiguous and widely agreed upon.
>

How much are you willing to wager and who will you accept as the arbiter?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 21/01/2023 11:27, Scott wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:22:45 +0000, Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21/01/2023 11:14, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a
>>> constitution, which is evidenced in writing in many ways.
>>
>> As already explained to you, we don't have a constitution because no-one
>> can define unambiguously what it is. You are welcome to try to define
>> it, but I bet you can't come up with a definition that is both
>> unambiguous and widely agreed upon.
>
> Do we not have common law either then?

See section 'Common law and statute':

https://www.iclr.co.uk/knowledge/topics/the-english-legal-system/

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 21/01/2023 11:43, Robin wrote:
> On 21/01/2023 11:22, Java Jive wrote:
>> On 21/01/2023 11:14, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>
>>> We don't have a written constitution but we certainly have a
>>> constitution, which is evidenced in writing in many ways.
>>
>> As already explained to you, we don't have a constitution because
>> no-one can define unambiguously what it is.  You are welcome to try to
>> define it, but I bet you can't come up with a definition that is both
>> unambiguous and widely agreed upon.
>
> How much are you willing to wager and who will you accept as the arbiter?

I don't have spare money to wager.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Sat, 21 Jan 2023 11:10:41 +0000, Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 10:00, charles wrote:
>> In article <xn0nx3wu444naeu006@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Has anybody here ever had a complaint about the BBC upheld? Christian
>>> Fraser said on a news programme a few days ago that the UK doesn't have a
>>> constitution. I complained and pointed out we are one of the oldest
>>> democracies in the world, that we house the Mother of Parliaments, and
>>> our constitution is one of the oldest in the world. I got the usual
>>> bland reply telling me they had watched a recording and then tried to
>>> put it into a context where it would be a true statement, although they
>>> didn't deny it was what he said.
>>
>>> The sooner we sell off he BBC the better.
>>
>> There is no written constitution
>>
>
>The UK constitution is largely in writing. What we don't have is a
>codified constitution in a single document. That's unusual but not unique.

Until recently there has been a general understanding of the British
way of doing things.

As long as you're British of course, or you've been brought up in the
British way of life. Maybe customs and traditions are not as permanent
a way of preserving things as we have previously relied upon,
particularly as we dilute (or some might say pollute) our indigenous
culture with some other very different ones. Maybe we should consider
preserving our fundamental values by writing them down for everybody
to understand.

Rod.