<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>
> Trains are starting to move towards Paddington from Reading now.
>
> This one was delayed at Reading for 73 minutes but there is a procession
> of services behind which are not so delayed:-
> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43332/2022-09-20
>
> About 29 hours from the start of the problem to get trains on the move
> must be something of a record.
>

Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:

UPDATES:
*All below are on 19/Sep*

Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
All trains on stop.

Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
Slough & Paddington.

Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
until end of day.

Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.

Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
safe.

Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.

Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
and Up Relief reopening.

Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.

Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.

Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.

Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.

Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
0.

Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
20.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

><martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Trains are starting to move towards Paddington from Reading now.
>>
>> This one was delayed at Reading for 73 minutes but there is a procession
>> of services behind which are not so delayed:-
>> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43332/2022-09-20
>>
>> About 29 hours from the start of the problem to get trains on the move
>> must be something of a record.
>>
>
>Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>
>UPDATES:
>*All below are on 19/Sep*
>
>Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>All trains on stop.
>
>Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>Slough & Paddington.
>
>Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>until end of day.
>
>Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>
>Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>safe.
>
>Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>
>Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>and Up Relief reopening.
>
>Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>
>Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>
>Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>
>Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>
>Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>0.
>
>Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>20.

Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Trains are starting to move towards Paddington from Reading now.
>>>
>>> This one was delayed at Reading for 73 minutes but there is a procession
>>> of services behind which are not so delayed:-
>>> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:W43332/2022-09-20
>>>
>>> About 29 hours from the start of the problem to get trains on the move
>>> must be something of a record.
>>>
>>
>> Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>>
>> UPDATES:
>> *All below are on 19/Sep*
>>
>> Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>> All trains on stop.
>>
>> Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>> Slough & Paddington.
>>
>> Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>> until end of day.
>>
>> Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>>
>> Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>> safe.
>>
>> Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>>
>> Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>> and Up Relief reopening.
>>
>> Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>>
>> Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>> between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>> available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>>
>> Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>>
>> Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>> exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>>
>> Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>> expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>> 0.
>>
>> Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>> 20.
>
> Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the
> wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
> an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had
> already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
> affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?
>

Other way round, AFAIK; the 345 damaged the wires and the damaged OLE then
damaged the 800.

What's not know to me yet is whether the 345 was in turn damaged by an OLE
fault.

Trains now running to Paddington, IETs on diesel from Reading to
Paddington.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 19/09/2022 16:24, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 10:31:53 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/09/2022 10:20, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 09:15:45 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> From
>>>>
>> <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/09/19/london-train-cancellations
>>
>>>> -queen-funeral-slough-paddington-delays/>
>>>>
>>>> Mourners hoping to travel to the Queen’s funeral faced more than an
>> hour’s
>>>> worth of disruption on Monday morning after all trains between Paddington
>>>> and Slough were cancelled.
>>>>
>>>> Damage to overhead electric wires meant cancellations and delays of up to
>>>> 90 minutes, with travellers warned to expect delays up until 10am.
>>>>
>>>> Slough is a change point between Paddington and Windsor and Eton Central –
>>
>>>> one of two overland stations that serve Windsor Castle, which is to be the
>>>> monarch's final resting place after a procession from London on Monday
>>>> afternoon.
>>>>
>>>> Great Western Railway confirmed in a Tweet the 6.25am service to Slough was
>>>> "to be evacuated" just after 8.45am, after passengers found themselves
>>>> "stuck" for over two hours just outside Paddington.
>>>>
>>>> The power fault is also affecting the Elizabeth Line and Heathrow Express
>>>> trains heading out of central London.
>>>>
>>>> Social media posts showed Transport for London was urging travellers to
>>>> instead change at Hammersmith and use the Piccadilly line.
>>>
>>> At least the ones who sensibly took the 3rd rail line to Eton riverside will
>>> still get there. Can't remember the last time a service were stopped because
>>> the 3rd rail fell over.
>>>
>>
>> I remember problems with the third rail back in 1980s in very cold
>> weather. Lots of pick-up shoes welding themselves to the icy current
>> rail by flash-overs.
>
> There is that, though thanks to climate change not so much of a problem these
> days. Bottom or side contact 3rd rail is obviously preferable if there's a
> choice.
>

It is easier, however, to install contact shoes on over-riding 3rd
rails, rather than under-riding.

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 14:59:19 +0100
"hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On 19/09/2022 16:24, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> There is that, though thanks to climate change not so much of a problem these
>
>> days. Bottom or side contact 3rd rail is obviously preferable if there's a
>> choice.
>>
>
>It is easier, however, to install contact shoes on over-riding 3rd
>rails, rather than under-riding.

DLR doesn't seem to have many/any issues on that score though the trains
don't exactly go fast.

On 20/09/2022 16:48, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 14:59:19 +0100
> "hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk" <hounslow3@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/09/2022 16:24, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> There is that, though thanks to climate change not so much of a problem these
>>
>>> days. Bottom or side contact 3rd rail is obviously preferable if there's a
>>> choice.
>>>
>>
>> It is easier, however, to install contact shoes on over-riding 3rd
>> rails, rather than under-riding.
>
> DLR doesn't seem to have many/any issues on that score though the trains
> don't exactly go fast.
>
>
It has nothing to do with speed, but rather with installing and
servicing shoes on the actual trains.

On 20/09/2022 13:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>>>
>>> UPDATES:
>>> *All below are on 19/Sep*
>>>
>>> Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>>> All trains on stop.
>>>
>>> Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>>> Slough & Paddington.
>>>
>>> Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>>> until end of day.
>>>
>>> Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>>>
>>> Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>>> safe.
>>>
>>> Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>>>
>>> Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>>> and Up Relief reopening.
>>>
>>> Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>>>
>>> Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>>> between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>>> available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>>>
>>> Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>>>
>>> Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>>> exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>>>
>>> Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>>> expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>>> 0.
>>>
>>> Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>>> 20.
>>
>> Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the
>> wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
>> an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had
>> already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
>> affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?
>>
>
> Other way round, AFAIK; the 345 damaged the wires and the damaged OLE then
> damaged the 800.
>
> What's not know to me yet is whether the 345 was in turn damaged by an OLE
> fault.

Not sure I'm correctly interpreting what RTT is showing:
It shows 1K01 passing HAY at 0635 before presumably encountering the damaged
OHL a few seconds later.
However it also shows three EL trains (9P23 and 9P25 up, and 9R18 down) due
to depart STL, HAY and HAY at 0628, 0628 and 0633 which did not depart, so
it appears that trains were stopped from running on the reliefs at least 7
minutes before 1K01 ran into trouble on the up main.
In addition 9P19 and 2P14 up were stopped just outside Paddington at about
0630 and 9R14 down did not depart Taplow at 0644, so I'm guessing that power
was shut off over a wide area.

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 20/09/2022 13:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>>>>
>>>> UPDATES:
>>>> *All below are on 19/Sep*
>>>>
>>>> Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>>>> All trains on stop.
>>>>
>>>> Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>>>> Slough & Paddington.
>>>>
>>>> Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>>>> until end of day.
>>>>
>>>> Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>>>>
>>>> Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>>>> safe.
>>>>
>>>> Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>>>>
>>>> Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>>>> and Up Relief reopening.
>>>>
>>>> Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>>>>
>>>> Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>>>> between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>>>> available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>>>>
>>>> Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>>>> exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>>>>
>>>> Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>>>> expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>>>> 0.
>>>>
>>>> Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>>>> 20.
>>>
>>> Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the
>>> wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
>>> an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had
>>> already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
>>> affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?
>>>
>>
>> Other way round, AFAIK; the 345 damaged the wires and the damaged OLE then
>> damaged the 800.
>>
>> What's not know to me yet is whether the 345 was in turn damaged by an OLE
>> fault.
>
> Not sure I'm correctly interpreting what RTT is showing:
> It shows 1K01 passing HAY at 0635 before presumably encountering the damaged
> OHL a few seconds later.
> However it also shows three EL trains (9P23 and 9P25 up, and 9R18 down) due
> to depart STL, HAY and HAY at 0628, 0628 and 0633 which did not depart, so
> it appears that trains were stopped from running on the reliefs at least 7
> minutes before 1K01 ran into trouble on the up main.
> In addition 9P19 and 2P14 up were stopped just outside Paddington at about
> 0630 and 9R14 down did not depart Taplow at 0644, so I'm guessing that power
> was shut off over a wide area.
>

Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
say 0627. Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
(the pan is over the second car).

Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
> On 20/09/2022 13:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>>>>
>>>> UPDATES:
>>>> *All below are on 19/Sep*
>>>>
>>>> Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>>>> All trains on stop.
>>>>
>>>> Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>>>> Slough & Paddington.
>>>>
>>>> Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>>>> until end of day.
>>>>
>>>> Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>>>>
>>>> Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>>>> safe.
>>>>
>>>> Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>>>>
>>>> Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>>>> and Up Relief reopening.
>>>>
>>>> Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>>>>
>>>> Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>>>> between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>>>> available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>>>>
>>>> Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>>>>
>>>> Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>>>> exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>>>>
>>>> Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>>>> expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>>>> 0.
>>>>
>>>> Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>>>> 20.
>>>
>>> Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the
>>> wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
>>> an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had
>>> already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
>>> affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?
>>>
>>
>> Other way round, AFAIK; the 345 damaged the wires and the damaged OLE then
>> damaged the 800.
>>
>> What's not know to me yet is whether the 345 was in turn damaged by an OLE
>> fault.
>
> Not sure I'm correctly interpreting what RTT is showing:
> It shows 1K01 passing HAY at 0635 before presumably encountering the damaged
> OHL a few seconds later.
> However it also shows three EL trains (9P23 and 9P25 up, and 9R18 down) due
> to depart STL, HAY and HAY at 0628, 0628 and 0633 which did not depart, so
> it appears that trains were stopped from running on the reliefs at least 7
> minutes before 1K01 ran into trouble on the up main.
> In addition 9P19 and 2P14 up were stopped just outside Paddington at about
> 0630 and 9R14 down did not depart Taplow at 0644, so I'm guessing that power
> was shut off over a wide area.
>

I don't think you can necessarily read that much in to the recorded timings
at stations; one of 9R18's pantographs was flat against the roof, and OLE
components hanging down above the train. That damage presumably caused the
loss of OLE voltage, which 1K01 experienced approximately 45 seconds before
the pantograph encountered the damaged OLE.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roger Lynn <usenet@rilynn.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 20/09/2022 13:20, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:38:53 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Yesterday's timeline of events that I have access to:
>>>>>
>>>>> UPDATES:
>>>>> *All below are on 19/Sep*
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 1 (0655): 1K01 (05:34 Bedwyn to Paddington) reports very loud bang.
>>>>> All trains on stop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 2 (0705): An emergency electrical switch off is now in place between
>>>>> Slough & Paddington.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 3 (0840): Overhead Line (OHL) team advises all lines likely closed
>>>>> until end of day.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 4 (1020): Confirmed damage to OHL on Down Relief.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 5 (1205): Team on site to inspect equipment. Priority is to make
>>>>> safe.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 6 (1239): Inspection ongoing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 7 (1317): OHL team have ID'd 2 sites of work to may allow Down Main
>>>>> and Up Relief reopening.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 8 (1326): Isolation in place to secure damaged pantograph on 1K01.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 9 (1330): OLE energised between Paddington and Southall East Jn, and
>>>>> between Stockley Bridge Jn/Maidenhead. There are no overhead lines
>>>>> available between Southall East Jn and Stockley Bridge Jn.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 10 (1627): Infrastructure will be handed back with restrictions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 11 (1807): Up Main and Down relief will remain blocked with the
>>>>> exception of the rescue of Elizabeth line 9R18.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 12 (2255): Disruptions remains until end of service. Line not
>>>>> expected back until 0900 on 20th Sep, where we will enter Contingency Plan
>>>>> 0.
>>>>>
>>>>> Update 13 (2335): Line possession granted. Line expected back at 0900 Sep
>>>>> 20.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. I take it that 800024 (a 5-car IET) on the Up Main brought the
>>>> wires down, damaging its pan in the process, but
>>>> an EL 345 on the Down Relief was then caught up in the mess? It had
>>>> already passed H&H, so it was presumably only
>>>> affected by the cut in power, and not the actual tangled wires?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Other way round, AFAIK; the 345 damaged the wires and the damaged OLE then
>>> damaged the 800.
>>>
>>> What's not know to me yet is whether the 345 was in turn damaged by an OLE
>>> fault.
>>
>> Not sure I'm correctly interpreting what RTT is showing:
>> It shows 1K01 passing HAY at 0635 before presumably encountering the damaged
>> OHL a few seconds later.
>> However it also shows three EL trains (9P23 and 9P25 up, and 9R18 down) due
>> to depart STL, HAY and HAY at 0628, 0628 and 0633 which did not depart, so
>> it appears that trains were stopped from running on the reliefs at least 7
>> minutes before 1K01 ran into trouble on the up main.
>> In addition 9P19 and 2P14 up were stopped just outside Paddington at about
>> 0630 and 9R14 down did not depart Taplow at 0644, so I'm guessing that power
>> was shut off over a wide area.
>>
>
> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
> say 0627.

The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.

> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
> (the pan is over the second car).
>

And also the eighth car.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Tue, 20 Sep 2022 11:41:41 +0100, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 20:42:49 +0100, "NY" <me@privacy.invalid> wrote:
>
>>"Graeme Wall" <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:tg9cu9$11quq$2@dont-email.me...
>>
>>>> At least the ones who sensibly took the 3rd rail line to Eton riverside
>>>> will
>>>> still get there. Can't remember the last time a service were stopped
>>>> because
>>>> the 3rd rail fell over.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I remember problems with the third rail back in 1980s in very cold
>>> weather. Lots of pick-up shoes welding themselves to the icy current rail
>>> by flash-overs.
>>
>>I wonder how many trains per year are delayed/cancelled by OHLE faults
>>compared with 3rd rail faults? I get the impression that OHLE is much more
>>prone to problems.
>>
>>What is involved in un-welding a 3rd rail shoe? Does it take more or less
>>time than to replace the OHLE knitting and maybe the train's pantograph,
>>than it does to unweld (and maybe replace) a 3rd rail shoe? I presume if you
>>can unweld the shoe, the train can still be hauled in limp-home by coupling
>>up another train set,
>
>Why? The train will almost certainly have other shoes in contact with the third rail. Losing a single shoe doesn't
>disable the train.
>
>> whereas only a diesel train/loco can rescue a train
>>that has brought down the OHLE.
>
>And only after the tangled wires have been removed. At least a broken third rail doesn't block the tracks.
>
Now, but not always perhaps, although it depends on the degree of
entanglement.

There was an OHLE problem just outside Bishop's Stortford that arose
as I was on my way to work. After a protracted delay we were told to
close all windows on the right hand side of the train. We then
proceeded slowly, a contact wire hanging at what looked like arm's
length directly outside the windows.

Of course this was a good old late-1950s installation and did not have
headspans.
>>
>>If a flashover occurs in icy weather, and the shoe welds itself while the
>>train is moving, does the shoe typically get ripped off, maybe damaging
>>other shoes on the train?

>>
>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>> say 0627.
>
> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>
>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>
>
> And also the eighth car.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 10:38:07 +0200
Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>> say 0627.
>>
>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>
>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>
>>
>> And also the eighth car.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
>I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?

Perhaps its also time to look at a pantograph design that can't snag the wire
no matter how saggy it might be. Instead of just turning down and stopping
at the edges perhaps make it go all the way around underneath and join up so
there'd be nothing to snag with.

Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>Perhaps its also time to look at a pantograph design that can't snag the wire
>no matter how saggy it might be. Instead of just turning down and stopping
>at the edges perhaps make it go all the way around underneath and join up so
>there'd be nothing to snag with.

Once the wire is not where it is expected to be, it would be
quite tricky to stop something basically "T" shaped from becoming
tangled.

A further issue is that, if the pantograph head was to be
constructed as you suggest, then the housed height would be
correspondingly increased, which would need the pan well to be
deeper, with unacceptable incursion into the passenger space.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>> say 0627.
>>
>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>
>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>
>>
>> And also the eighth car.
>>
>
> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>
>

It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
any easier.

Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
neutral section-to-neutral section).

Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.

The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 10:38:07 +0200
> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>> say 0627.
>>>
>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>
>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>
>>>
>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>
>>
>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>
> Perhaps its also time to look at a pantograph design that can't snag the wire
> no matter how saggy it might be. Instead of just turning down and stopping
> at the edges perhaps make it go all the way around underneath and join up so
> there'd be nothing to snag with.
>

When there's one of the registration arms hanging down nothing much will
help.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>> say 0627.
>>>
>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>
>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>
>>>
>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>
>>
>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>
>>
>
> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
> any easier.
>
> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>
> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>
> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver

Thank you Anna.

The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
the UK.

I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:09:05 +0200, Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:

>On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>>> say 0627.
>>>>
>>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
>> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
>> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
>> any easier.
>>
>> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
>> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
>> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
>> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
>> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>>
>> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
>> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
>> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
>> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>>
>> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
>> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
>> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
>> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>Thank you Anna.
>
>The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
>here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
>one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
>the UK.
>
>I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
>than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
>certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
>my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
>having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
>involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.

As has been pointed out by Anna, this happened in the part of the GWML that was electrified in the 1990s for the
Heathrow Express. It has less robust headspan electrification, rather than the mighty Forth Bridge-like structures that
support the new wires.

When that OHLE was installed 30 years ago, I wondered why they used fragile headspan supports; we already knew from the
ECML that they're fragile, and if one contact wire comes down, all four become unusable. I know they're cheaper to
erect, but perhaps not cheaper in the long run.

>>
>> I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
>> than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
>> certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
>> my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
>> having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
>> involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.
>
> As has been pointed out by Anna, this happened in the part of the GWML that was electrified in the 1990s for the
> Heathrow Express. It has less robust headspan electrification, rather than the mighty Forth Bridge-like structures that
> support the new wires.
>
> When that OHLE was installed 30 years ago, I wondered why they used fragile headspan supports; we already knew from the
> ECML that they're fragile, and if one contact wire comes down, all four become unusable. I know they're cheaper to
> erect, but perhaps not cheaper in the long run.

Ah, that I didn't notice, perhaps I should have gone to Specsavers :-).
Thank you for pointing that out. It explains a lot.

On 19/09/2022 10:31, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 19/09/2022 10:20, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2022 09:15:45 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> From
>>> <https://www.telegraph.co.uk/royal-family/2022/09/19/london-train-cancellations
>>>
>>> -queen-funeral-slough-paddington-delays/>
>>>
>>> Mourners hoping to travel to the Queen’s funeral faced more than an
>>> hour’s
>>> worth of disruption on Monday morning after all trains between
>>> Paddington
>>> and Slough were cancelled.
>>>
>>> Damage to overhead electric wires meant cancellations and delays of
>>> up to
>>> 90 minutes, with travellers warned to expect delays up until 10am.
>>>
>>> Slough is a change point between Paddington and Windsor and Eton
>>> Central –
>>> one of two overland stations that serve Windsor Castle, which is to
>>> be the
>>> monarch's final resting place after a procession from London on Monday
>>> afternoon.
>>>
>>> Great Western Railway confirmed in a Tweet the 6.25am service to
>>> Slough was
>>> "to be evacuated" just after 8.45am, after passengers found themselves
>>> "stuck" for over two hours just outside Paddington.
>>>
>>> The power fault is also affecting the Elizabeth Line and Heathrow
>>> Express
>>> trains heading out of central London.
>>>
>>> Social media posts showed Transport for London was urging travellers to
>>> instead change at Hammersmith and use the Piccadilly line.
>>
>> At least the ones who sensibly took the 3rd rail line to Eton
>> riverside will
>> still get there. Can't remember the last time a service were stopped
>> because
>> the 3rd rail fell over.
>>
>
> I remember problems with the third rail back in 1980s in very cold
> weather. Lots of pick-up shoes welding themselves to the icy current
> rail by flash-overs.
>

If that was so it was an issue of much lighter shoes - not 3rd rail per se.

PA

Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
> On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>>> say 0627.
>>>>
>>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>>
>>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
>> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
>> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
>> any easier.
>>
>> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
>> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
>> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
>> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
>> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>>
>> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
>> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
>> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
>> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>>
>> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
>> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
>> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
>> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>>
>
> Thank you Anna.
>
> The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
> here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
> one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
> the UK.
>
> I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
> than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
> certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
> my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
> having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
> involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.
>

This incident was on 1990s headspan wiring installed originally for HEx,
rather than the new F&F Series 1 equipment, which wouldn't have transferred
the damage from the first line to the second, and would have made opening
the undamaged lines easier.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:09:05 +0200, Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>>>> say 0627.
>>>>>
>>>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>>>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>>>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>>>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>>>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
>>> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
>>> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
>>> any easier.
>>>
>>> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
>>> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
>>> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
>>> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
>>> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>>>
>>> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
>>> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
>>> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
>>> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>>>
>>> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
>>> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
>>> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
>>> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>> Thank you Anna.
>>
>> The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
>> here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
>> one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
>> the UK.
>>
>> I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
>> than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
>> certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
>> my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
>> having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
>> involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.
>
> As has been pointed out by Anna, this happened in the part of the GWML
> that was electrified in the 1990s for the
> Heathrow Express. It has less robust headspan electrification, rather
> than the mighty Forth Bridge-like structures that
> support the new wires.
>
> When that OHLE was installed 30 years ago, I wondered why they used
> fragile headspan supports; we already knew from the
> ECML that they're fragile, and if one contact wire comes down, all four
> become unusable. I know they're cheaper to
> erect, but perhaps not cheaper in the long run.
>

Presumably BAA were paying? And at the time it had only 4tph rather than
20tph as now.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:51:04 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:09:05 +0200, Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>>>>> say 0627.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>>>>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>>>>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>>>>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>>>>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
>>>> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
>>>> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
>>>> any easier.
>>>>
>>>> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
>>>> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
>>>> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
>>>> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
>>>> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>>>>
>>>> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
>>>> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
>>>> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
>>>> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>>>>
>>>> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
>>>> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
>>>> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
>>>> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>> Thank you Anna.
>>>
>>> The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
>>> here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
>>> one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
>>> the UK.
>>>
>>> I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
>>> than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
>>> certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
>>> my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
>>> having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
>>> involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.
>>
>> As has been pointed out by Anna, this happened in the part of the GWML
>> that was electrified in the 1990s for the
>> Heathrow Express. It has less robust headspan electrification, rather
>> than the mighty Forth Bridge-like structures that
>> support the new wires.
>>
>> When that OHLE was installed 30 years ago, I wondered why they used
>> fragile headspan supports; we already knew from the
>> ECML that they're fragile, and if one contact wire comes down, all four
>> become unusable. I know they're cheaper to
>> erect, but perhaps not cheaper in the long run.
>>
>
>Presumably BAA were paying?

Yes, I was wondering about that.

> And at the time it had only 4tph rather than 20tph as now.

I didn't realise it had risen quite so dramatically!

On 21/09/2022 09:50, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 10:38:07 +0200
> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>> say 0627.
>>>
>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>
>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>
>>>
>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>
> Perhaps its also time to look at a pantograph design that can't snag the wire
> no matter how saggy it might be. Instead of just turning down and stopping
> at the edges perhaps make it go all the way around underneath and join up so
> there'd be nothing to snag with.
>

Perhaps install AI programming on the cameras already mounted on many
newer train models?

On 21/09/2022 13:38, Recliner wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 14:09:05 +0200, Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>
>> On 21.09.2022 11:21, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Eddie King <xxxeddie_ce@gmx.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna reported that it was 9R18 that knotted the knitting. It arrived at HAY
>>>>>> at 0629, so it probably brought the wires down a couple of minutes earlier,
>>>>>> say 0627.
>>>>>
>>>>> The power on the main lines (so presumably all lines) went out at 0635.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, its driver may not have known why the power was lost
>>>>>> (the pan is over the second car).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And also the eighth car.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering why if on two lines the OHLE is damaged such a widespread
>>>> isolation is needed. If this event happened on the main lines couldn't
>>>> the relief lines stay energized with perhaps a dalek placed to lower
>>>> speed on them? If I interpret things correctly power was off between PAD
>>>> and at least Slough. A huge area. Or am I being too simplistic?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's headspan area so the wires are essentially tensioned like a net. Lose
>>> integrity of one element and none of it is behaving as it's supposed to.
>>> It's also in between two junctions with complex OLE which won't make life
>>> any easier.
>>>
>>> Smaller sections of OLE can be isolated, and often are for overnight
>>> possessions, but that involves operating lineside switches (remote
>>> operation is being installed). An 'emergency switch off' as in the
>>> immediate aftermath will be over a wider area (though not necessarily
>>> neutral section-to-neutral section).
>>>
>>> Yesterday the shuttle service was running from Reading to West Drayton,
>>> somewhat closer to the incident. Can anyone confirm whether trains were
>>> running from Paddington to Heathrow, ie right past the incident? The track
>>> layout at Hayes allows access via just one line if necessary.
>>>
>>> The lines damaged were the two middle lines (up main and down relief), and
>>> initially the adjacent lines would need to be closed for access to the
>>> train roofs to remove the damaged pantographs etc. Also I don't know where
>>> the damaged lines ended up, ie potentially foul of the other lines.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>> Thank you Anna.
>>
>> The UK does seem to have quite a few OHLE incidents. This also happens
>> here in Deutschland and I can only speak for my local area, we have had
>> one or two incidents recently but it seems to happen far more often it
>> the UK.
>>
>> I thought the GWML electrification was supposed to be more resilient
>> than the ECML which seems to fall down on a regular basis, the metalwork
>> certainly seems impressive, I was quite surprised when I first revisited
>> my old haunting ground in Maidenhead at how imposing it was.. But,
>> having seen video clips of what happens when a pantograph gets too
>> involved with the wires I can see why damage over a wide area can occur.
>
> As has been pointed out by Anna, this happened in the part of the GWML that was electrified in the 1990s for the
> Heathrow Express. It has less robust headspan electrification, rather than the mighty Forth Bridge-like structures that
> support the new wires.
>
> When that OHLE was installed 30 years ago, I wondered why they used fragile headspan supports; we already knew from the
> ECML that they're fragile, and if one contact wire comes down, all four become unusable. I know they're cheaper to
> erect, but perhaps not cheaper in the long run.

Slightly unrelated, but is there a ban now on installation of new 3rd
rail, save for the Underground and DLR?