On 09/03/2022 09:41, David Wade wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t08tbn$hcc$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:45:44 on Wed, 9 Mar
>> 2022, John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> remarked:
>>
>>> On 08/03/2022 23:06, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>> lighting  circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a
>>>>> fairly new one, no  immersion heater).
>>>>>
>>>>> One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>
>>>>  Do you know if the circuits are in good order (eg from EICR before
>>>> purchase)?
>>>
>>> Yup, the subtext here is expect to uncover a few additional bits that
>>> might need fixing...
>>>
>>> Equipotential bonding might not be up to scratch. Circuits might not
>>> text successfully (ring continuity etc), requiring extra
>>> investigation. There might be shared neutrals between circuits (will
>>> cause RCD trip), or circuits might fail insulation resistance checks.
>>
>> We'll have to take that as it comes.
>
> Well yes, but investigation takes time. Most electricians don't want "if
> then maybe" jobs they want predictable work so they can schedule the
> next. I think most will want to re-wire.

Much will depend on the actual fault, and the general state of the wiring.

> If you have shared neutrals,
> for example between upstairs and downstairs lights how on earth can any
> one find that? It could be in any junction box. In my case it was linked
> smoke detectors that caused issues. Upstairs on on upstairs lights,
> downstairs one on downstairs lights. Linked by wire it was enough to
> trip the RCD/ELCB. Took me ages to find, and then get Sparks back to
> finish job.
>
> Later when the kitchen was re-fitted we had issues with broken rings.
> Again a pig to find, you probably need to remove every socket.

You can usually find that much quicker with access to both ends at the
circuit at the CU - you don't even need to take a socket off:

If you get a continuity failure at the ends, short one set together, and
then use a ohm meter connected to a test plug. It will quickly show you
which sockets are either side of the break.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 09/03/2022 06:31, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t08mln$35r$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:51:35 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> remarked:
>> On 08/03/2022 19:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t08au1$5pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:31:12 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>> 2022,  ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>> lighting  circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a
>>>>> fairly new one,  no immersion heater).
>>>
>>>>>  One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>>>
>>>> It should be what you are asking.
>>>  ?
>>>
>>>> IMHO get a price for all RCBO for a five circuit CU.
>
>>>  I'm asking here what would one expect to pay for something like
>>> that,  fitted.
>
>>>  Half a day sounds about right, which round here is cheaper than in a
>>> big  city.
>>>
>>>> Are the two CU's getting combined or are you just swapping the older
>>>> one?
>
>>>  It's actually two older ones: one probably pre-war, the other maybe
>>> 50's.
>>
>> so only fuses in existing, no RCD/ELCB etc. If so be prepared for
>> problems...
>
> Apart from anything else, it's upgrading to a more modern configuration
> I'm trying to achieve.
>
> Or do you think it's possible the existing wiring might have undetected
> 'leaks'?

There might be - but in general it is better to find and fix them than
ignore them... that would count as upgrading to a more modern
installation as well IMHO :-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

In message <2ii*p5HIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:54:06 on Wed,
9 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> Apart from anything else, it's upgrading to a more modern configuration
>> I'm trying to achieve.
>>
>> Or do you think it's possible the existing wiring might have undetected
>> 'leaks'?
>
>Several issues. One is lack of RCDs could find undetected cross-wiring - eg
>lighting circuit borrowing neutral from nearby sockets.

Seems unlikely, there aren't any sockets (which are all at floor level,
rewired under the floorboards) anywhere near the lighting.

>Or just straight
>leaky appliances - an old boiler, immersion or something.

No immersion. Boiler isn't particularly old.

>The other is the general condition of the installation: if the CUs are that
>old, how old is the wiring? Do you know it's sound - not rubber, not
>cotton, no 'green goo' (failed PVC insulation)? Earthing in place where
>it's needed?

Looks relatively recent, the house had a big refurb about 20yrs ago and
I expect it dates from then. (Unfortunate they didn't do the fuse boxes
though, but did decommission the old round-pin sockets).

>For something of that age you might be advised to commission an EICR
>(£100-200) and get the system tested. Testing is part of the CU change
>anyway, so it's work that needs to be done (although an electrician should
>retest once the CU is replaced).
>
>Having done an EICR it's essentially a todo list of work that needs to be
>done, and you can then show it to people when you're asked for quotes. It
>puts them on more solid ground than quoting for a CU change, taking it apart
>and discovering wiring issues that make the job much bigger. It may result
>in lower quotes if it means they need allow for less contingency since the
>job has lower risks. It may also allow you to fix more things on the EICR
>while the electrician is on site.

So perhaps if the electrician can first do an up to date EICR then come
back later to quote for the remedial work? He's very local.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <2ii*p5HIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:54:06 on Wed,
> 9 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
> >The other is the general condition of the installation: if the CUs are that
> >old, how old is the wiring? Do you know it's sound - not rubber, not
> >cotton, no 'green goo' (failed PVC insulation)? Earthing in place where
> >it's needed?
>
> Looks relatively recent, the house had a big refurb about 20yrs ago and
> I expect it dates from then. (Unfortunate they didn't do the fuse boxes
> though, but did decommission the old round-pin sockets).

'Looks' doesn't just mean the colour of the sockets, but what's going on
with the buried wiring. If they're replaced a round pin socket with a new
faceplate but connected it to rubber wiring, I'd be worried. PVC could look
OK from the outside but be corroding inside, etc.

For something of that age an EICR is an extremely good idea to check if
there is anything lurking. Maybe they installed completely new modern
wiring runs and capped off the old ones, but maybe there were some bits
where they didn't do that. That they didn't also change the CU at the same
time suggests it wasn't an entirely new installation.

> So perhaps if the electrician can first do an up to date EICR then come
> back later to quote for the remedial work? He's very local.

Sounds like a plan. A good EICR will take a few hours minimum. But worth
it for knowing that you're living in a house that doesn't have any
electrical timebombs.

On the CU question, given the 'interesting' history I might be tempted to
merge the old and new CUs into a single new one. May cost a bit more, but
will remove the past heritage of additions and bodges, leaving you with a
single modern electrical system. If you go for an SPD as well, that will
surge protect all the ways, and can tidy up some of the meter box wiring (no
Henley blocks to tee off to the second CU, maybe make space for an EV
charger).

WRT meter tails, ask your electricity supplier how much it would cost to
upgrade them. They own the meter so tails either side of the meter are
their responsibility. There's a bit of variation between suppliers as to
how much it costs.

Theo

On 09/03/2022 10:43, Theo wrote:
<snip>

> WRT meter tails, ask your electricity supplier how much it would cost to
> upgrade them. They own the meter so tails either side of the meter are
> their responsibility. There's a bit of variation between suppliers as to
> how much it costs.
>

the tails from the meter to the CU are the customer's as part of the
internal wiring

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

> the tails from the meter to the CU are the customer's as part of the internal
> wiring

Most sparks seem willing to cut the seal(s); when I replaced my CU (before part
P) I cut the fuse seal, inserted the 16mm tails out of the meter into my own
cut-out, then used 25mm tails into my new CU, also upgraded the 6mm earth to 16mm.

A few years later when the elec meter was being replaced, the fitter noticed the
new tails on my side, and replaced the tails from cutout to meter and meter to
my isolator with 25mm, he replaced the 60A fuse with an 80A, re-sealed the
cutout and sealed the isolator input side.

So I didn't have to pay anything other than for the isolator.

Andy Burns wrote:

> when I replaced my CU (before part P) I cut the fuse seal, inserted the 16mm
> tails out of the meter into my own cut-out ^^^^^^^^
isolator

> then used 25mm tails into my new CU, also upgraded the 6mm earth to 16mm.

In message <0ii*UeIIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:43:04 on Wed,
9 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <2ii*p5HIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 09:54:06 on Wed,
>> 9 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >The other is the general condition of the installation: if the CUs are that
>> >old, how old is the wiring? Do you know it's sound - not rubber, not
>> >cotton, no 'green goo' (failed PVC insulation)? Earthing in place where
>> >it's needed?
>>
>> Looks relatively recent, the house had a big refurb about 20yrs ago and
>> I expect it dates from then. (Unfortunate they didn't do the fuse boxes
>> though, but did decommission the old round-pin sockets).
>
>'Looks' doesn't just mean the colour of the sockets,

I was commenting on the wiring emerging from the old fuse boxes.

>but what's going on with the buried wiring.

It's all been added later.

>If they're replaced a round pin socket with a new faceplate but
>connected it to rubber wiring, I'd be worried. PVC could look OK from
>the outside but be corroding inside, etc.

The obsolete round pin sockets are incompletely different places to the
new 13Aones.

>For something of that age an EICR is an extremely good idea to check if
>there is anything lurking. Maybe they installed completely new modern
>wiring runs and capped off the old ones, but maybe there were some bits
>where they didn't do that. That they didn't also change the CU at the same
>time suggests it wasn't an entirely new installation.

The wiring appears to be.

>> So perhaps if the electrician can first do an up to date EICR then come
>> back later to quote for the remedial work? He's very local.
>
>Sounds like a plan. A good EICR will take a few hours minimum. But worth
>it for knowing that you're living in a house that doesn't have any
>electrical timebombs.
>
>On the CU question, given the 'interesting' history I might be tempted to
>merge the old and new CUs into a single new one. May cost a bit more, but
>will remove the past heritage of additions and bodges, leaving you with a
>single modern electrical system. If you go for an SPD as well, that will
>surge protect all the ways, and can tidy up some of the meter box wiring (no
>Henley blocks to tee off to the second CU, maybe make space for an EV
>charger).

The fuse box area is so far from wherever I might park a car, that's a
non-starter.

>WRT meter tails, ask your electricity supplier how much it would cost to
>upgrade them.

I already did. They said "whatever to person you need to hire to do
that, charges you".

>They own the meter so tails either side of the meter are their
>responsibility.

Not according to the UK Power Networks (nee Eastern Electrickery) people
who came round to do a free survey.

--
Roland Perry

In message <2ii*R+HIy@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:17:18 on Wed,
9 Mar 2022, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roger Mills <mills37.fslife@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Precisely. There's a lot to be said for letting sleeping dogs lie as far
>> as existing circuits are concerned, and installing a new CU to current
>> regs for any additional circuits.
>
>It seems like that's already been done: the geriatric CU remains, a
>secondary

Tertiary.

>CU has been added for the extension. At some point the installation is
>unsafe and somebody has to bite the bullet and be prepared to rectify
>anything that may be lurking. While a 'sleeping dogs' approach might
>be fine if the installation is actually OK, just not up to current
>regs, from the description I'm not convinced this installation is OK.

The geriatric and secondary units definitely need replacing. That's all.
--
Roland Perry

In message <j8rcprFj0pqU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:11:07 on Wed, 9 Mar
2022, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns remarked:
>>
>>> "it'll all need replacing" ...
>> Neither the installation for the new kitchen/extension, nor the
>>smart meter, qualify for that.
>> Yes, the installation comprising the two old fuseboxes does, which
>>is why I want them replacing, Dear Liza.
>
>Confine him to that then
>
>> Part of me wants him to upgrade the tails (quite short) between the
>>main fuse, the Smart Meter and the consumer unit backboard
>
>Most of which isn't yours to upgrade, no isolator after the meter?

The tails from the meter go into three different (one newish, one
medium, one ancient) fuse boxes, each with their own ON/OFF switches.
There's not one master "all three off" switch between the meter and the
fuse boxes.

>> I'm about to send off a request to an IT department regarding three
>>separate (but interlinked) tasks, and which would be *vastly* more
>>efficient for them to do all three at the same time. But I have this
>>sense of foreboding they'll just pick the easiest and ignore the other two.
>
>I understand their attitude, the more things you do at once, the
>chances of finding some undocumented interaction between them rapidly
>increases, and the one person who knew about the baler-twine holding it
>together left years ago, you get more departments involved, they all
>want you to sneak their own pet change in at the same time ...

This is three separate changes to a really simple Access Database. A
teenager ought to be able to do it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t09ueu$obo$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:10:38 on Wed, 9 Mar 2022,
John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> remarked:
>On 09/03/2022 09:28, Roger Mills wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 00:45, John Rumm wrote:
>>> On 08/03/2022 23:06, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>>lighting circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a fairly
>>>>>new one, no immersion heater).
>>>>>
>>>>> One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>>weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>>>
>>>> Do you know if the circuits are in good order (eg from EICR before
>>>>purchase)?
>>>
>>> Yup, the subtext here is expect to uncover a few additional bits
>>>that might need fixing...
>>>
>>> Equipotential bonding might not be up to scratch. Circuits might not
>>>text successfully (ring continuity etc), requiring extra
>>>investigation. There might be shared neutrals between circuits (will
>>>cause RCD trip), or circuits might fail insulation resistance checks.
>>>
>>>
>> Precisely. There's a lot to be said for letting sleeping dogs lie as
>>far as existing circuits are concerned, and installing a new CU to
>>current regs for any additional circuits.
>
>There is some argument for switching existing stuff to a new CU if it
>means you get RCD protection on socket circuits that currently have
>none,

The kitchen/extension sockets on the newest box already have that.

>or if you have re-wireable fuses and the place is likely to be occupied
>by people not able to re-wire a fuse etc.

The biggest problem post-Brexit post-Covid is finding anyone with the
fuse wire in stock.
--
Roland Perry

On 08/03/2022 22:39, williamwright wrote:
> On 08/03/2022 18:12, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two lighting
>>> circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a fairly new one,
>>> no immersion heater).
>>>
>>> One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>> To be shafted.
>>
>>
> Not all one-man bands are crooks. Fewer than if you use a big firm, I'd
> say.
>
> Bill

Big firms have big overheads that means they are always more
expensive. Far too many one-man bands resort to lies and
bullshit, especially when dealing with older people.

On 09/03/2022 11:28, Robin wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 10:43, Theo wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> WRT meter tails, ask your electricity supplier how much it would cost to
>> upgrade them.  They own the meter so tails either side of the meter are
>> their responsibility.  There's a bit of variation between suppliers as to
>> how much it costs.
>>
>
> the tails from the meter to the CU are the customer's as part of the
> internal wiring
>

But the meter is sealed so the 'customer' cannot access them,
so ought really be down to the electricity co to change them.

On 09/03/2022 09:35, Roland Perry wrote:

> [Recursively, I asked the guy doing the electrics for the new extension
> to quote separately for doing this latest project, and despite several
> reminders - and not even needing to do a special site survey as he was
> already here - just ignored it. I suppose someone will now claim that's
> evidence it's "too difficult" work, rather than "I'm already fully
> booked till the end of the year"; which isn't true because I know for a
> fact these guys moonlight at weekends].

They only moonlight if they are someone else's payroll. If they are
self-employed then they can work whatever hours they choose.

On 09/03/2022 09:41, David Wade wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t08tbn$hcc$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:45:44 on Wed, 9 Mar
>> 2022, John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> remarked:
>>
>>> On 08/03/2022 23:06, Robin wrote:
>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>> lighting  circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a
>>>>> fairly new one, no  immersion heater).
>>>>>
>>>>> One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>
>>>>  Do you know if the circuits are in good order (eg from EICR before
>>>> purchase)?
>>>
>>> Yup, the subtext here is expect to uncover a few additional bits that
>>> might need fixing...
>>>
>>> Equipotential bonding might not be up to scratch. Circuits might not
>>> text successfully (ring continuity etc), requiring extra
>>> investigation. There might be shared neutrals between circuits (will
>>> cause RCD trip), or circuits might fail insulation resistance checks.
>>
>> We'll have to take that as it comes.
>
> Well yes, but investigation takes time. Most electricians don't want "if
> then maybe" jobs they want predictable work so they can schedule the
> next. I think most will want to re-wire. If you have shared neutrals,
> for example between upstairs and downstairs lights how on earth can any
> one find that? It could be in any junction box. In my case it was linked
> smoke detectors that caused issues. Upstairs on on upstairs lights,
> downstairs one on downstairs lights. Linked by wire it was enough to
> trip the RCD/ELCB. Took me ages to find, and then get Sparks back to
> finish job.
>
> Later when the kitchen was re-fitted we had issues with broken rings.
> Again a pig to find, you probably need to remove every socket.
>

When I bought my current (1976) house in 1991 I noticed that the metal
cover above the wylex rewireable fuses had scorch marks above
both the cooker and ring main 30amp fuses.

Many years later I needed to remove the wall cabinet above the
cooker main switch (kitchen was refitted by previous owner)
and discovered the 6mm cable had been exposed and was surrounded
by a huge burn mark, and where the numpty had drilled through the
live *and* earth, it had been 'repaired' with a bit of choc-bloc !!.

Another few years later I removed another kitchen cabinet above
a wall socket and found one of those hammer-in picture hooks
right through the ring main cable neutral. Still don't know
how they blew the 30 amp fuse but the cooker one had melted a
small quadrant out of the metal shield above the fuses.

I had a full survey that never mentioned it or some really
bad faults with the baxi back boiler either :-(

The lighting circuits in the loft all had 'green goo' coming
out of the insulation into the loop-in fixings so I replaced
all that and fixed the borrowed neutral on the hall/landing
lights too.

On 09/03/2022 10:17, John Rumm wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 09:41, David Wade wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t08tbn$hcc$1@dont-email.me>, at 00:45:44 on Wed, 9 Mar
>>> 2022, John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 08/03/2022 23:06, Robin wrote:
>>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>>> lighting  circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a
>>>>>> fairly new one, no  immersion heater).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>>
>>>>>  Do you know if the circuits are in good order (eg from EICR before
>>>>> purchase)?
>>>>
>>>> Yup, the subtext here is expect to uncover a few additional bits
>>>> that might need fixing...
>>>>
>>>> Equipotential bonding might not be up to scratch. Circuits might not
>>>> text successfully (ring continuity etc), requiring extra
>>>> investigation. There might be shared neutrals between circuits (will
>>>> cause RCD trip), or circuits might fail insulation resistance checks.
>>>
>>> We'll have to take that as it comes.
>>
>> Well yes, but investigation takes time. Most electricians don't want
>> "if then maybe" jobs they want predictable work so they can schedule
>> the next. I think most will want to re-wire.
>
> Much will depend on the actual fault, and the general state of the wiring.
>
>> If you have shared neutrals, for example between upstairs and
>> downstairs lights how on earth can any one find that? It could be in
>> any junction box. In my case it was linked smoke detectors that caused
>> issues. Upstairs on on upstairs lights, downstairs one on downstairs
>> lights. Linked by wire it was enough to trip the RCD/ELCB. Took me
>> ages to find, and then get Sparks back to finish job.
>>
>> Later when the kitchen was re-fitted we had issues with broken rings.
>> Again a pig to find, you probably need to remove every socket.
>
> You can usually find that much quicker with access to both ends at the
> circuit at the CU - you don't even need to take a socket off:
>
> If you get a continuity failure at the ends, short one set together, and
> then use a ohm meter connected to a test plug. It will quickly show you
> which sockets are either side of the break.
>
>
>
>

One of those £10 Schneider test plugs in Wickes might be useful.

On 09/03/2022 16:14, Roland Perry wrote:

>
> The biggest problem post-Brexit post-Covid is finding anyone with the
> fuse wire in stock.

Some Wickes have it (Littlehampton has 4) :-

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Wickes-Fuse-Wire---Pack-of-3/p/710136?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplp710136&sc_intid=710136&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrKzO7My59gIVSoBQBh1LUQcDEAQYBiABEgKU0_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

If they are Wylex rewireable fuses then you can still get these,
even though there are circumstances where they might not do what
they are supposed to do :-

https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-32a-sp-type-b-mcb/87979?tc=KC8&ds_kid=92700055281954493&ds_rl=1249401&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyZzYnMy59gIVD-ztCh1WKwCjEAQYASABEgIyW_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

On 08/03/2022 19:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t08au1$5pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:31:12 on Tue, 8 Mar 2022,
> ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two lighting
>>> circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a fairly new one,
>>> no immersion heater).
>
>>>  One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>
>> It should be what you are asking.
>
> ?
>
>> IMHO get a price for all RCBO for a five circuit CU.
>
> I'm asking here what would one expect to pay for something like that,
> fitted.
>
> Half a day sounds about right, which round here is cheaper than in a big
> city.
>
>> Are the two CU's getting combined or are you just swapping the older one?
>
> It's actually two older ones: one probably pre-war, the other maybe 50's.

The pre war one, unless the circuits have been rewired at some point may
have VIR or lead sheathed cables.

If you go all RCBO then if there is a faulty circuit you can replace the
RCBO for a MCB until there is time to fault find. If a certificate is
being issued then I would expect this to be noted as a deviation.

I swapped a 5 way fuse box to an all RCBO CU in under two hours last
week (no testing) - most of the work was in preparing cables so that
they could reach the new terminals and I did not rush.

Under £100 in parts inc VAT. I asked what we would charge if this was a
normal customer (the one I did was for a friend of the MDs) and was told
£300 + VAT and that included a test. It would not include any remedial
works.

I hope that gives you some idea.

On 09/03/2022 17:57, Andrew wrote:

> If they are Wylex rewireable fuses then you can still get these,
> even though there are circumstances where they might not do what
> they are supposed to do :-
>
> https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-32a-sp-type-b-mcb/87979?tc=KC8&ds_kid=92700055281954493&ds_rl=1249401&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyZzYnMy59gIVD-ztCh1WKwCjEAQYASABEgIyW_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
>

What might they do that you would not expect them to do?

On 09/03/2022 18:22, ARW wrote:
> On 09/03/2022 17:57, Andrew wrote:
>
>> If they are Wylex rewireable fuses then you can still get these,
>> even though there are circumstances where they might not do what
>> they are supposed to do :-
>>
>> https://www.screwfix.com/p/wylex-32a-sp-type-b-mcb/87979?tc=KC8&ds_kid=92700055281954493&ds_rl=1249401&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyZzYnMy59gIVD-ztCh1WKwCjEAQYASABEgIyW_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
>>
>
> What might they do that you would not expect them to do?

It's more a case of what you might expect them to do that they don't :-)

(like interrupt a fault current >3kA, or let you get the fuse cover back
on the old CU)

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

In message <t0aojl$1da2$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:36:51 on Wed, 9 Mar
2022, Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> remarked:
>On 09/03/2022 09:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> [Recursively, I asked the guy doing the electrics for the new
>>extension to quote separately for doing this latest project, and
>>despite several reminders - and not even needing to do a special site
>>survey as he was already here - just ignored it. I suppose someone
>>will now claim that's evidence it's "too difficult" work, rather than
>>"I'm already fully booked till the end of the year"; which isn't true
>>because I know for a fact these guys moonlight at weekends].
>
>They only moonlight if they are someone else's payroll. If they are
>self-employed then they can work whatever hours they choose.

It's a bit more complicated than that, because from what I've seen there
are contractors (quite possibly self employed) who sell their services
in blocks to developers and builders, but then do jobs 'on the side' at
weekends, or sometimes when en-route to/from their daily site.

Not being a developer myself, I don't know what their expectation is of
having the exclusive use of the contractor's services for the duration
of the block. If they were actual short-term employees, there would be
working time and statutory annual leave rules to comply with too.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t0ar0h$umv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:53 on Wed, 9 Mar 2022,
ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>On 08/03/2022 19:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <t08au1$5pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:31:12 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>2022, ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>lighting circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a fairly
>>>>new one, no immersion heater).
>>
>>>>  One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>>
>>> It should be what you are asking.
>> ?
>>
>>> IMHO get a price for all RCBO for a five circuit CU.
>> I'm asking here what would one expect to pay for something like
>>that, fitted.
>> Half a day sounds about right, which round here is cheaper than in a
>>big city.
>>
>>> Are the two CU's getting combined or are you just swapping the older
>>>one?
>> It's actually two older ones: one probably pre-war, the other maybe
>>50's.
>
>The pre war one, unless the circuits have been rewired at some point

It *has* been rewired. With grey T&E. But it's a mess, with cables going
off in various directions under the floor, downstairs and upstairs) none
of them tidily cut to length. Which might be a blessing, if there's some
spare length to re-route them all to one replacement box.

>may have VIR or lead sheathed cables.
>
>If you go all RCBO then if there is a faulty circuit you can replace
>the RCBO for a MCB until there is time to fault find. If a certificate
>is being issued then I would expect this to be noted as a deviation.
>
>I swapped a 5 way fuse box to an all RCBO CU in under two hours last
>week (no testing) - most of the work was in preparing cables so that
>they could reach the new terminals and I did not rush.
>
>Under £100 in parts inc VAT. I asked what we would charge if this was a
>normal customer (the one I did was for a friend of the MDs) and was
>told £300 + VAT and that included a test. It would not include any
>remedial works.
>
>I hope that gives you some idea.

Thanks.
--
Roland Perry

In message <t0anoi$guo$3@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:22:24 on Wed, 9 Mar
2022, Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> remarked:
>On 09/03/2022 11:28, Robin wrote:
>> On 09/03/2022 10:43, Theo wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> WRT meter tails, ask your electricity supplier how much it would
>>>cost to
>>> upgrade them.  They own the meter so tails either side of the meter are
>>> their responsibility.  There's a bit of variation between suppliers as to
>>> how much it costs.
>>>
>> the tails from the meter to the CU are the customer's as part of the
>>internal wiring
>
>But the meter is sealed so the 'customer' cannot access them,
>so ought really be down to the electricity co to change them.

The "customer", as far as the infrastructure company is concerned is
whichever energy supplier fitted the smart meter. And the "customer" as
far as the energy supplier is concerned is the householder, who should
employ a qualified electrician to play with these things.

I don't know if your "ought" is an aspiration in some parallel universe,
or an attempt to refute what the infrastructure company told me?
--
Roland Perry

In message <t0appm$2qb$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:57:08 on Wed, 9 Mar
2022, Andrew <Andrew97d-junk@mybtinternet.com> remarked:
>On 09/03/2022 16:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> The biggest problem post-Brexit post-Covid is finding anyone with
>>the fuse wire in stock.
>
>Some Wickes have it (Littlehampton has 4) :-

I would normally expect to find it somewhere like Wilko, but their
shelves have been especially bare the last few years.

As for Screwfix - yes I have frequently had to visit the third/fourth
most local one to get something.

And last week I was trying to find a pair of safety boots, which they
claimed was in stock in just one size (luckily my size) in one store,
but when I went to put it in the click-and-collect basket said "haha!
fooled you! It's not in stock after all".

I've also seen stuff available (allegedly) in just one Wickes in the
Southeast, about three hours drive away. But not convinced it wasn't
some administrative error too.

About five years ago I needed a few breeze blocks, which are
surprisingly difficult to buy 'retail'. And eventually found them in a
branch of Homebase 50 miles away, so reserved them to collect. When I
turned up, they denied they even sold the item at all.

After about half an hour of faffing around, it was determined they *did*
have some on the premises, but they had been used to construct a raised
bed in their garden centre section. Apparently the only mechanism for
obtaining some for this project, was to order them off their supplier as
if they were ordinary stock. At which point, after they'd done the
"goods in", they showed as available to customers.

Luckily, they had not quite used all of them (a couple of palette loads
I think) so we tracked down the handful I needed, in a pile out the back
of the store.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/03/2022 06:39, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <t0ar0h$umv$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:17:53 on Wed, 9 Mar 2022,
> ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 08/03/2022 19:54, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <t08au1$5pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:31:12 on Tue, 8 Mar
>>> 2022,  ARW <adamwadsworth@blueyonder.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> On 08/03/2022 18:03, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Need a new consumer unit for approx three ring mains and two
>>>>> lighting  circuits (kitchen/extension and cooker already on a
>>>>> fairly new one,  no immersion heater).
>>>
>>>>>  One-man-band professional electrician coming round to quote at the
>>>>> weekend. What should I reasonably be expecting?
>>>>
>>>> It should be what you are asking.
>>>  ?
>>>
>>>> IMHO get a price for all RCBO for a five circuit CU.
>>>  I'm asking here what would one expect to pay for something like
>>> that,  fitted.
>>>  Half a day sounds about right, which round here is cheaper than in a
>>> big  city.
>>>
>>>> Are the two CU's getting combined or are you just swapping the older
>>>> one?
>>>  It's actually two older ones: one probably pre-war, the other maybe
>>> 50's.
>>
>> The pre war one, unless the circuits have been rewired at some point
>
> It *has* been rewired. With grey T&E. But it's a mess, with cables going
> off in various directions under the floor, downstairs and upstairs) none
> of them tidily cut to length. Which might be a blessing, if there's some
> spare length to re-route them all to one replacement box.

So you have met my apprentice:-)

Spare/slack cable can be a blessing on a CU swap.