"Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:s8m3bk$90u$1@dont-email.me...
> On 26/05/2021 11:39, Recliner wrote:
>> tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I wonder what made him think that he needed to tap out?
>>
>> It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the constant TfL advice to,
>> "Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end on
>> a
>> yellow card reader to pay the right fare". Only in the fine print do you
>> find, "Only touch in on buses and trams".
>>
>> <https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out>
>
> Except for viewers in Wimbledon.

what part of

"Only touch in on buses and trams." did you not understand?

In message <s8o5h3$qfg$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:06:41 on Thu, 27 May
2021, tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>
>"Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>news:s8m3bk$90u$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 26/05/2021 11:39, Recliner wrote:
>>> tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder what made him think that he needed to tap out?
>>>
>>> It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the constant TfL advice to,
>>> "Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the
>>>end on a
>>> yellow card reader to pay the right fare". Only in the fine print do you
>>> find, "Only touch in on buses and trams".
>>>
>>>
>>><https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyst
>>>er/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out>
>>
>> Except for viewers in Wimbledon.
>
>what part of
>
>"Only touch in on buses and trams." did you not understand?

There's always been something odd about Wimbledon, and the need (or not)
to touch in/out when changing modes here.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 27 May 2021 14:06:41 +0100, tim... wrote:

> "Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:s8m3bk$90u$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 26/05/2021 11:39, Recliner wrote:
>>> tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder what made him think that he needed to tap out?
>>>
>>> It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the constant TfL advice
>>> to,
>>> "Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end
>>> on a
>>> yellow card reader to pay the right fare". Only in the fine print do
>>> you find, "Only touch in on buses and trams".
>>>
>>> <https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-
oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out>
>>
>> Except for viewers in Wimbledon.
>
> what part of
>
> "Only touch in on buses and trams." did you not understand?

Does it not say: Tram journeys to and from Wimbledon: If you're
travelling to Wimbledon, touch in at the start of your journey and when
leaving Wimbledon station, touch out at the gates?

So yes, Wimbledon appears to be an exception!

nib

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at 16:02:27
>>> on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam>
>>> remarked:
>
>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be even
>>>> easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off. There's
>>>> no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll work out the
>>>> cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys you make during
>>>> the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a day's travel, or £18
>>>> for a week. All you need to do is tap the same card
>
>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>> card.
>>
>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>
>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>
> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all concessionary
> bus passes are ITSO.

Just because one type of pass is already an (inert, no interaction with the
contents of the card required, ever) ITSO card, doesn't mean that adopting
a type of card which many passengers already carry, is "going against the
flow".

And from this thread, it appears to be many bus companies not just one!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8jjkf$p8d$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:36:47 on Tue, 25 May
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique:
>>>
>>> Coming soon
>>> tap on tap off
>>> whether you travel a little or a lot
>>> you'll always get the best price
>>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> From 26th May it will be even easier to travel with First Leicester
>>> with Tap on Tap off. There's no need to work out which bus ticket you
>>> need as we'll work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the
>>> journeys you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for
>>> a day's travel, or £18 for a week.
>>>
>>> All you need to do is tap the same card or contactless device on the
>>> dedicated reader as you board and exit the bus and your payment will
>>> be calculated based on the number of journeys you make.
>>>
>>> How it works?
>>> " When you tap on and tap off, we'll automatically calculate the
>>> single fare for your journey.
>>> " If you only make one trip, you'll pay the single fare - if you
>>> make several trips in one day the price you'll pay will be capped at
>>> the day ticket price.
>>> " If you travel several days in a week, the price you'll pay
>>> will be capped at the weekly ticket price.
>>>
>>> Payment is taken at the end of the day and you don't receive a paper
>>> receipt while on the bus.
>>
>> Ah, nothing to do with “taps aff” then...
>
> Talking of tapping-off, how many other bus PAYG schemes require the
> passenger to tap both getting on, and off, the bus?

Anywhere which doesn't have a flat, single fare, I guess.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8krmv$h72$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:47 on Wed, 26 May
> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>> On 2021-05-25 17:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>
>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at
>>>>> 16:02:27 on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson
>>>>> <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be
>>>>>> even easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off.
>>>>>> There's no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll
>>>>>> work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys
>>>>>> you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a
>>>>>> day's travel, or £18 for a week. All you need to do is tap the same card
>>>
>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>> card.
>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all
>>> concessionary bus passes are ITSO.
>>
>> Looking at a few bus company webistes, it looks like all the major bus
>> companies (first, Arriva, Stagecoach and GoAhead) all ccept contactless
>> payment on their buses. First and GoAhead are both rolling out a
>> system like the one described above to parts fo their network. For Go
>> Ahead, it looks like it covers Gatwick and environs, Brighton & Hove,
>> Porstsmouth and Solent, Oxford, and Newcastle area (possibly others),
>
> The Brighton and Gatwick buses are also covered by GTR's KeyGo ITSO
> card.
>
>> while for first it's currently available in Aberdeen, Doncaster,
>> Southampton and Bristol. Of course London is also covered via the
>> contactless on Oyster as well. The bus companies are certainly
>> swimming, but when it comes to ITSO, I'm not sure I'd say that they are
>> against the flow exactly.
>
> The problem with CCC, especially on buses, is that it disenfranchises
> the young and non-credit-worthy.

No reason it can't run in parallel with ITSO, though, for those who don't
have a suitable ITSO card.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 27/05/2021 14:06, tim... wrote:
>
>
> "Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:s8m3bk$90u$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 26/05/2021 11:39, Recliner wrote:
>>> tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I wonder what made him think that he needed to tap out?
>>>
>>> It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the constant TfL advice
>>> to,
>>> "Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the
>>> end on a
>>> yellow card reader to pay the right fare".  Only in the fine print do
>>> you
>>> find, "Only touch in on buses and trams".
>>>
>>> <https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out>
>>>
>>
>> Except for viewers in Wimbledon.
>
> what part of
>
> "Only touch in on buses and trams." did you not understand?

The trams at Wimbledon are inside the station gate line, so you need to
touch out. And while trams - other than at Wimbledon - are touch-in only
like buses, the readers are off-vehicle, unlike buses. Like the DLR,
except on the DLR you need to touch out.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In message <s8om7r$fn9$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8krmv$h72$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:47 on Wed, 26 May
>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-05-25 17:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>> 16:02:27 on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson
>>>>>> <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be
>>>>>>> even easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off.
>>>>>>> There's no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll
>>>>>>> work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys
>>>>>>> you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a
>>>>>>> day's travel, or £18 for a week. All you need to do is tap
>>>>>>>the same card
>>>>
>>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>>> card.
>>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all
>>>> concessionary bus passes are ITSO.
>>>
>>> Looking at a few bus company webistes, it looks like all the major bus
>>> companies (first, Arriva, Stagecoach and GoAhead) all ccept contactless
>>> payment on their buses. First and GoAhead are both rolling out a
>>> system like the one described above to parts fo their network. For Go
>>> Ahead, it looks like it covers Gatwick and environs, Brighton & Hove,
>>> Porstsmouth and Solent, Oxford, and Newcastle area (possibly others),
>>
>> The Brighton and Gatwick buses are also covered by GTR's KeyGo ITSO
>> card.
>>
>>> while for first it's currently available in Aberdeen, Doncaster,
>>> Southampton and Bristol. Of course London is also covered via the
>>> contactless on Oyster as well. The bus companies are certainly
>>> swimming, but when it comes to ITSO, I'm not sure I'd say that they are
>>> against the flow exactly.
>>
>> The problem with CCC, especially on buses, is that it disenfranchises
>> the young and non-credit-worthy.
>
>No reason it can't run in parallel with ITSO, though, for those who don't
>have a suitable ITSO card.

It could, but few bus companies appear to want to operate a two-pronged
contactless scheme.

Most locals will be using whatever's available, so that kind of
safety-net is only for 'visitors'.
--
Roland Perry

In message <s8om7q$fn9$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:54 on Thu, 27 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at 16:02:27
>>>> on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam>
>>>> remarked:
>>
>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be even
>>>>> easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off. There's
>>>>> no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll work out the
>>>>> cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys you make during
>>>>> the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a day's travel, or £18
>>>>> for a week. All you need to do is tap the same card
>>
>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>> card.
>>>
>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>
>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>
>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all concessionary
>> bus passes are ITSO.
>
>Just because one type of pass is already an (inert, no interaction with the
>contents of the card required, ever) ITSO card, doesn't mean that adopting
>a type of card which many passengers already carry, is "going against the
>flow".
>
>And from this thread, it appears to be many bus companies not just one!

Some of the tap-in tap-off schemes are using ITSO cards.
--
Roland Perry

In message <s8om7r$fn9$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8jjkf$p8d$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:36:47 on Tue, 25 May
>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique:
>>>>
>>>> Coming soon
>>>> tap on tap off
>>>> whether you travel a little or a lot
>>>> you'll always get the best price
>>>>
>>>> Hi there,
>>>>
>>>> From 26th May it will be even easier to travel with First Leicester
>>>> with Tap on Tap off. There's no need to work out which bus ticket you
>>>> need as we'll work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the
>>>> journeys you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for
>>>> a day's travel, or £18 for a week.
>>>>
>>>> All you need to do is tap the same card or contactless device on the
>>>> dedicated reader as you board and exit the bus and your payment will
>>>> be calculated based on the number of journeys you make.
>>>>
>>>> How it works?
>>>> " When you tap on and tap off, we'll automatically calculate the
>>>> single fare for your journey.
>>>> " If you only make one trip, you'll pay the single fare - if you
>>>> make several trips in one day the price you'll pay will be capped at
>>>> the day ticket price.
>>>> " If you travel several days in a week, the price you'll pay
>>>> will be capped at the weekly ticket price.
>>>>
>>>> Payment is taken at the end of the day and you don't receive a paper
>>>> receipt while on the bus.
>>>
>>> Ah, nothing to do with “taps aff” then...
>>
>> Talking of tapping-off, how many other bus PAYG schemes require the
>> passenger to tap both getting on, and off, the bus?
>
>Anywhere which doesn't have a flat, single fare, I guess.

Further investigation reveals it's not quite as simple as that.

Quite a few areas have a two-zone (inner/outer) flat fare, in the sense
that there's one flat fare if you stay within a zone, and a higher flat
fare if you travel in both.

And then there's the flat all-day-tickets (with often single fares only
economic if you are travelling less than half a mile), where again it
can be either a one-zone-fits-all or a dual-zone scheme.

And people accuse train ticketing of being too complicated!
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 25 May 2021 16:02:27 +0100, Peter Johnson
<peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
[snip]

I thought this was a description of the weather in Glasgow :-)

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8om7r$fn9$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <s8krmv$h72$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:47 on Wed, 26 May
>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2021-05-25 17:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>> 16:02:27 on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson
>>>>>>> <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be
>>>>>>>> even easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off.
>>>>>>>> There's no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll
>>>>>>>> work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys
>>>>>>>> you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a
>>>>>>>> day's travel, or £18 for a week. All you need to do is tap
>>>>>>>> the same card
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all
>>>>> concessionary bus passes are ITSO.
>>>>
>>>> Looking at a few bus company webistes, it looks like all the major bus
>>>> companies (first, Arriva, Stagecoach and GoAhead) all ccept contactless
>>>> payment on their buses. First and GoAhead are both rolling out a
>>>> system like the one described above to parts fo their network. For Go
>>>> Ahead, it looks like it covers Gatwick and environs, Brighton & Hove,
>>>> Porstsmouth and Solent, Oxford, and Newcastle area (possibly others),
>>>
>>> The Brighton and Gatwick buses are also covered by GTR's KeyGo ITSO
>>> card.
>>>
>>>> while for first it's currently available in Aberdeen, Doncaster,
>>>> Southampton and Bristol. Of course London is also covered via the
>>>> contactless on Oyster as well. The bus companies are certainly
>>>> swimming, but when it comes to ITSO, I'm not sure I'd say that they are
>>>> against the flow exactly.
>>>
>>> The problem with CCC, especially on buses, is that it disenfranchises
>>> the young and non-credit-worthy.
>>
>> No reason it can't run in parallel with ITSO, though, for those who don't
>> have a suitable ITSO card.
>
> It could, but few bus companies appear to want to operate a two-pronged
> contactless scheme.
>

Except for the, apparently, many who do.

After all, they already have CCC readers on the bus to accept payment with,
so adding oyster-like functionality doesn't require any additional
card-interface equipment.

> Most locals will be using whatever's available, so that kind of
> safety-net is only for 'visitors'.

IMX (a couple of years ago when I went through a phase of using the bus
more often) many locals (including me) were using phone 'scan the barcode'
tickets.

I'm not sure, in your sentence above, what you think locals will be using
and what you think visitors will be using? Or indeed why they should, at
present, be different?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8om7q$fn9$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:54 on Thu, 27 May
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at 16:02:27
>>>>> on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be even
>>>>>> easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off. There's
>>>>>> no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll work out the
>>>>>> cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys you make during
>>>>>> the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a day's travel, or £18
>>>>>> for a week. All you need to do is tap the same card
>>>
>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>> card.
>>>>
>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>>
>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>>
>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all concessionary
>>> bus passes are ITSO.
>>
>> Just because one type of pass is already an (inert, no interaction with the
>> contents of the card required, ever) ITSO card, doesn't mean that adopting
>> a type of card which many passengers already carry, is "going against the
>> flow".
>>
>> And from this thread, it appears to be many bus companies not just one!
>
> Some of the tap-in tap-off schemes are using ITSO cards.

May I ask you a few questions about ISTO? You say that different operators
require a different 'app' on the card? How do I install that? Then how do I
add money to the app (rather than the card, presumably?) to pay for my bus
travel?

It seems as complicated and confusing to a novice like me (particularly
compared to just touching my debit card) as you seem to find the concept of
having a ticket emailed, tbh.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <s8om7r$fn9$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <s8jjkf$p8d$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:36:47 on Tue, 25 May
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique:
>>>>>
>>>>> Coming soon
>>>>> tap on tap off
>>>>> whether you travel a little or a lot
>>>>> you'll always get the best price
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>
>>>>> From 26th May it will be even easier to travel with First Leicester
>>>>> with Tap on Tap off. There's no need to work out which bus ticket you
>>>>> need as we'll work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the
>>>>> journeys you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for
>>>>> a day's travel, or £18 for a week.
>>>>>
>>>>> All you need to do is tap the same card or contactless device on the
>>>>> dedicated reader as you board and exit the bus and your payment will
>>>>> be calculated based on the number of journeys you make.
>>>>>
>>>>> How it works?
>>>>> " When you tap on and tap off, we'll automatically calculate the
>>>>> single fare for your journey.
>>>>> " If you only make one trip, you'll pay the single fare - if you
>>>>> make several trips in one day the price you'll pay will be capped at
>>>>> the day ticket price.
>>>>> " If you travel several days in a week, the price you'll pay
>>>>> will be capped at the weekly ticket price.
>>>>>
>>>>> Payment is taken at the end of the day and you don't receive a paper
>>>>> receipt while on the bus.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, nothing to do with “taps aff” then...
>>>
>>> Talking of tapping-off, how many other bus PAYG schemes require the
>>> passenger to tap both getting on, and off, the bus?
>>
>> Anywhere which doesn't have a flat, single fare, I guess.
>
> Further investigation reveals it's not quite as simple as that.
>
> Quite a few areas have a two-zone (inner/outer) flat fare, in the sense
> that there's one flat fare if you stay within a zone, and a higher flat
> fare if you travel in both.
>

That fits within my definition of "Anywhere which doesn't have a flat,
single fare".

Bristol has the added complication of a "three-stop-hop" which is cheaper
than either of the zonal fares.

> And then there's the flat all-day-tickets

ie the day fare which the t-i-t-o scheme charges you if you make more than
one journey?

> (with often single fares only
> economic if you are travelling less than half a mile),

Eh?

> where again it
> can be either a one-zone-fits-all or a dual-zone scheme.
>
> And people accuse train ticketing of being too complicated!
>

What you've said above really doesn't sound particularly complicated to me.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <s8qf6k$o1a$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:04 on Fri, 28 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8om7r$fn9$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <s8krmv$h72$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:00:47 on Wed, 26 May
>>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-05-25 17:56:42 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>>>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>> 16:02:27 on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson
>>>>>>>> <peter@parksidewood.nospam> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be
>>>>>>>>> even easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off.
>>>>>>>>> There's no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll
>>>>>>>>> work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys
>>>>>>>>> you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a
>>>>>>>>> day's travel, or £18 for a week. All you need to do is tap
>>>>>>>>> the same card
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>>>>> card.
>>>>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>>>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all
>>>>>> concessionary bus passes are ITSO.
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at a few bus company webistes, it looks like all the major bus
>>>>> companies (first, Arriva, Stagecoach and GoAhead) all ccept contactless
>>>>> payment on their buses. First and GoAhead are both rolling out a
>>>>> system like the one described above to parts fo their network. For Go
>>>>> Ahead, it looks like it covers Gatwick and environs, Brighton & Hove,
>>>>> Porstsmouth and Solent, Oxford, and Newcastle area (possibly others),
>>>>
>>>> The Brighton and Gatwick buses are also covered by GTR's KeyGo ITSO
>>>> card.
>>>>
>>>>> while for first it's currently available in Aberdeen, Doncaster,
>>>>> Southampton and Bristol. Of course London is also covered via the
>>>>> contactless on Oyster as well. The bus companies are certainly
>>>>> swimming, but when it comes to ITSO, I'm not sure I'd say that they are
>>>>> against the flow exactly.
>>>>
>>>> The problem with CCC, especially on buses, is that it disenfranchises
>>>> the young and non-credit-worthy.
>>>
>>> No reason it can't run in parallel with ITSO, though, for those who don't
>>> have a suitable ITSO card.
>>
>> It could, but few bus companies appear to want to operate a two-pronged
>> contactless scheme.
>
>Except for the, apparently, many who do.

It's a mixture. I haven't counted sufficient to call it "many".

>After all, they already have CCC readers on the bus to accept payment with,

Do they though?

>so adding oyster-like functionality doesn't require any additional
>card-interface equipment.

But it requires quite a bit in the back-office (agreements with card
companies as well as I stuff).

>> Most locals will be using whatever's available, so that kind of
>> safety-net is only for 'visitors'.
>
>IMX (a couple of years ago when I went through a phase of using the bus
>more often) many locals (including me) were using phone 'scan the barcode'
>tickets.

My impression is they are fairly rare, overall.

>I'm not sure, in your sentence above, what you think locals will be using
>and what you think visitors will be using?

Locals: whatever often quirky scheme their bus company happens to have
rolled out. Visitors: whatever they can, which if the bus only accepts a
proprietary smartcard could be cash.

>Or indeed why they should, at present, be different?

Because there are so many quirky local schemes.
--
Roland Perry

In message <s8qf6k$o1a$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:04 on Fri, 28 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8om7q$fn9$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:54 on Thu, 27 May
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <s8jar8$e3o$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:06:48 on Tue, 25 May
>>>> 2021, bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-05-25 15:55:08 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <s44qagt5qovq64d4btkv30qn2jao7l74f4@4ax.com>, at 16:02:27
>>>>>> on Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique: Coming
>>>>>>> soon tap on tap off whether you travel a little or a lot you'll
>>>>>>> always get the best price Hi there, From 26th May it will be even
>>>>>>> easier to travel with First Leicester with Tap on Tap off. There's
>>>>>>> no need to work out which bus ticket you need as we'll work out the
>>>>>>> cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the journeys you make during
>>>>>>> the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for a day's travel, or £18
>>>>>>> for a week. All you need to do is tap the same card
>>>>
>>>>>> I presume they mean "Credit/Debit card" not ITSO or Tesco Loyalty
>>>>>> card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Contactless Visa or Mastercard, Apple pay, Google pay.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another reason not to bother with an ITSO card.
>>>>
>>>> Or a bus company swimming against the flow, given that all concessionary
>>>> bus passes are ITSO.
>>>
>>> Just because one type of pass is already an (inert, no interaction with the
>>> contents of the card required, ever) ITSO card, doesn't mean that adopting
>>> a type of card which many passengers already carry, is "going against the
>>> flow".
>>>
>>> And from this thread, it appears to be many bus companies not just one!
>>
>> Some of the tap-in tap-off schemes are using ITSO cards.
>
>May I ask you a few questions about ISTO? You say that different operators
>require a different 'app' on the card? How do I install that?

You don't, the person operating the card scheme does.

>Then how do I add money to the app (rather than the card, presumably?)
>to pay for my bus travel?

By whatever scheme the card operator has implemented. I've seen linkage
to "auto-topup" schemes, or you might need to visit a website, or in
extreme cases visit a TVM/Window to get the funds added manually.

The distinction between the money being "in the App" or "on the card"
doesn't matter. They'll probably call it a "wallet" and the money is
just data anyway.

>It seems as complicated and confusing to a novice like me (particularly
>compared to just touching my debit card)

And pertinent to this thread, knowing by osmosis (as a visitor) whether
or not you have to touch-out.

>as you seem to find the concept of
>having a ticket emailed, tbh.

I don't have a big problem with "emailing" tickets, it's what the
passenger has to do to extract such tickets to operate barriers/
validators which is the issue.

There's the associated problem with setting up and registering with the
bus/train operator, new email addresses to have tickets delivered to,
though. If you don't want them mixed up with all your other email, which
might be mainly read on your desktop.
--
Roland Perry

In message <s8qf6l$o1a$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:04:05 on Fri, 28 May
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <s8om7r$fn9$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:51:55 on Thu, 27 May
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <s8jjkf$p8d$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:36:47 on Tue, 25 May
>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Peter Johnson <peter@parksidewood.nospam> wrote:
>>>>>> This just received rom First Leicester so won't be unique:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Coming soon
>>>>>> tap on tap off
>>>>>> whether you travel a little or a lot
>>>>>> you'll always get the best price
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From 26th May it will be even easier to travel with First Leicester
>>>>>> with Tap on Tap off. There's no need to work out which bus ticket you
>>>>>> need as we'll work out the cheapest on-bus fare for you based on the
>>>>>> journeys you make during the day. You'll never pay more than £4.40 for
>>>>>> a day's travel, or £18 for a week.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All you need to do is tap the same card or contactless device on the
>>>>>> dedicated reader as you board and exit the bus and your payment will
>>>>>> be calculated based on the number of journeys you make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How it works?
>>>>>> " When you tap on and tap off, we'll automatically calculate the
>>>>>> single fare for your journey.
>>>>>> " If you only make one trip, you'll pay the single fare - if you
>>>>>> make several trips in one day the price you'll pay will be capped at
>>>>>> the day ticket price.
>>>>>> " If you travel several days in a week, the price you'll pay
>>>>>> will be capped at the weekly ticket price.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Payment is taken at the end of the day and you don't receive a paper
>>>>>> receipt while on the bus.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, nothing to do with “taps aff” then...
>>>>
>>>> Talking of tapping-off, how many other bus PAYG schemes require the
>>>> passenger to tap both getting on, and off, the bus?
>>>
>>> Anywhere which doesn't have a flat, single fare, I guess.
>>
>> Further investigation reveals it's not quite as simple as that.
>>
>> Quite a few areas have a two-zone (inner/outer) flat fare, in the sense
>> that there's one flat fare if you stay within a zone, and a higher flat
>> fare if you travel in both.
>
>That fits within my definition of "Anywhere which doesn't have a flat,
>single fare".
>
>Bristol has the added complication of a "three-stop-hop" which is cheaper
>than either of the zonal fares.

That's a typical example of the half-mile fare I referred to.

>> And then there's the flat all-day-tickets
>
>ie the day fare which the t-i-t-o scheme charges you if you make more than
>one journey?

That's a cap. Usually there is a corresponding one-off-purchase all-day
ticket.

>> (with often single fares only economic if you are travelling less
>>than half a mile),
>
>Eh?

See above. Nottingham had one too. I think it's a PR exercise to placate
people who only want to take a bus half a mile once a day, and object to
buying an "all-day" ticket which they regard as overkill.

Stagecoach Cambs has a similar fare, but they keep it a secret.

>> where again it
>> can be either a one-zone-fits-all or a dual-zone scheme.
>>
>> And people accuse train ticketing of being too complicated!
>
>What you've said above really doesn't sound particularly complicated to me.

Two-zone, tap-out only if you've travelled from one zone to the next
(how are you supposed to tell?) is pretty complicated.
--
Roland Perry

"nib" <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> wrote in message
news:s8o880$qpg$2@dont-email.me...
> On Thu, 27 May 2021 14:06:41 +0100, tim... wrote:
>
>> "Certes" <none@nowhere.net> wrote in message
>> news:s8m3bk$90u$1@dont-email.me...
>>> On 26/05/2021 11:39, Recliner wrote:
>>>> tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I wonder what made him think that he needed to tap out?
>>>>
>>>> It's a perfectly reasonable assumption, given the constant TfL advice
>>>> to,
>>>> "Always touch in at the start of your journey and touch out at the end
>>>> on a
>>>> yellow card reader to pay the right fare". Only in the fine print do
>>>> you find, "Only touch in on buses and trams".
>>>>
>>>> <https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-
> oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out>
>>>
>>> Except for viewers in Wimbledon.
>>
>> what part of
>>
>> "Only touch in on buses and trams." did you not understand?
>
> Does it not say: Tram journeys to and from Wimbledon: If you're
> travelling to Wimbledon, touch in at the start of your journey and when
> leaving Wimbledon station, touch out at the gates?

well you don't have any choice about that. It's a fully barriered station
and the gates are closed until you touch out. (unless you shoulder surf
someone)

The system is programmed to "ignore" that touch, if you previously touched
in on a tram

the difficultly is in the reverse direction.

Having touched in at the gates, the system thinks that you are starting an
underground or National Rail journey and will expect a touch out. So you
touch in at the tram platform to tell it you are making a tram journey.

And, of course there's multi-mode journeys to consider, but that's a huge
can of worms (and not only at Wimbledon is that a problem).

On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:31:32 +0100
"tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>and the gates are closed until you touch out. (unless you shoulder surf
>someone)

Or just hold a rolled up newspaper out and block the infrared beam after
they've gone through.

Just saying :)

<MrSpook_vgRg@37laefieb.gov> wrote in message
news:s8qlfm$uob$1@gioia.aioe.org...
> On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:31:32 +0100
> "tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>and the gates are closed until you touch out. (unless you shoulder surf
>>someone)
>
> Or just hold a rolled up newspaper out and block the infrared beam after
> they've gone through.

does it work like that

more than once I've had then close on my luggage because they seem to close
on a strict time basis

On Fri, 28 May 2021 13:10:07 +0100
"tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
><MrSpook_vgRg@37laefieb.gov> wrote in message
>news:s8qlfm$uob$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:31:32 +0100
>> "tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>and the gates are closed until you touch out. (unless you shoulder surf
>>>someone)
>>
>> Or just hold a rolled up newspaper out and block the infrared beam after
>> they've gone through.
>
>does it work like that

Yup, there's a beam going across just past the gate. Have a look next time,
the equipment is obvious when you look for it. I would guess the timeout
is pretty short and it also seems to only allow one break and reset of the
beam which is why so many people with bags get caught out.

On 28/05/2021 11:48, Roland Perry wrote:
> Two-zone, tap-out only if you've travelled from one zone to the next
> (how are you supposed to tell?) is pretty complicated.

Tapping out only if you *haven't* travelled from one zone to another
would make more sense. If people who don't tap out are charged the
lower fare, catching cheats would require a team of grippers at every
bus stop.

On 28/05/2021 14:57, Certes wrote:
> On 28/05/2021 11:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Two-zone, tap-out only if you've travelled from one zone to the next
>> (how are you supposed to tell?) is pretty complicated.
>
> Tapping out only if you *haven't* travelled from one zone to another
> would make more sense.  If people who don't tap out are charged the
> lower fare, catching cheats would require a team of grippers at every
> bus stop.

I wonder if this would allow for free transfers from tube to bus and
vice-versa in outer zones.

In message <s8qssv$6me$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:57:50 on Fri, 28 May
2021, Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>On 28/05/2021 11:48, Roland Perry wrote:

>> Two-zone, tap-out only if you've travelled from one zone to the next
>>(how are you supposed to tell?) is pretty complicated.
>
>Tapping out only if you *haven't* travelled from one zone to another
>would make more sense. If people who don't tap out are charged the
>lower fare, catching cheats would require a team of grippers at every
>bus stop.

Yes, I got that backwards: "tap-out only if you've NOT travelled from
one zone to the next (how are you supposed to tell?) is pretty
complicated."
--
Roland Perry

tim... <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <MrSpook_vgRg@37laefieb.gov> wrote in message
> news:s8qlfm$uob$1@gioia.aioe.org...
>> On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:31:32 +0100
>> "tim..." <timsnews99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> and the gates are closed until you touch out. (unless you shoulder surf
>>> someone)
>>
>> Or just hold a rolled up newspaper out and block the infrared beam after
>> they've gone through.
>
> does it work like that
>
> more than once I've had then close on my luggage because they seem to close
> on a strict time basis
>

Definitely IR; your luggage obviously wasn't in the right place to continue
obstructing the beam.

Anna Noyd-Dryver