A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
*checks time* yesterday.

The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>

Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
running on the Kirby line on Monday.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>

The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>

A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
<https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
> *checks time* yesterday.
>
> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>
> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>
> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>

I'm not aware of any previous ones.

>
> A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
> Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
> standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
> <https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>

Wow! Are they fitted with cog wheels?

I hope to return to the Rigi this spring, but they'll probably have gone by
then.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>
>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>
>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>
>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>
> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>

Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
to Liverpool and Newcastle.

>>
>> A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
>> Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
>> standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
>> <https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>
>
> Wow! Are they fitted with cog wheels?
>
> I hope to return to the Rigi this spring, but they'll probably have gone by
> then.
>

There's enough track in the station and depot area which is level enough
for it to be useful for testing.

Have you been to Rigi before, btw? My recommendation, if you're doing both
sides of the railway, is to go up from Arth Goldau and down to Vitznau -
that way you get the 'wow aren't rack railways amazing how they climb steep
hills' going one way and the 'rack railways just feel kinda slow going
downhill actually' while you have the fantastic view to look at! If you
catch one of the new trains, try to be at the very front of the platform
when the train arrives on its previous journey - there's a very bizarre
chaise-longue seat right next to the driver!

If you are also doing Pilatus while you are in the area, I similarly
recommend going up by train and down by cable car.

Elsewhere in the Vierwaldstättersee region - I found Titlis underwhelming
and overrated. Visit Stanserhorn instead. If you're going to Stoos to ride
the new funicular, take the chairlift onwards to Fronalpstock for another
spectacular view. Burgenstock funicular is very expensive (if you're paying
rather than on a pass) and the hotel complex at the top is way out of my
range (but perhaps not yours) - but a pleasant stroll through the woods
takes you to the amazing Hammetschwand lift. If you visit the Verkehrshaus,
allow a whole day.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>
>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>
>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>
>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>
>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>
>
> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>
>>>
>>> A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
>>> Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
>>> standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
>>> <https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>
>>
>> Wow! Are they fitted with cog wheels?
>>
>> I hope to return to the Rigi this spring, but they'll probably have gone by
>> then.
>>
>
> There's enough track in the station and depot area which is level enough
> for it to be useful for testing.
>
> Have you been to Rigi before, btw?

Yes, of course.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157656443743316

> My recommendation, if you're doing both
> sides of the railway, is to go up from Arth Goldau and down to Vitznau -

I did it the other way.

> that way you get the 'wow aren't rack railways amazing how they climb steep
> hills' going one way and the 'rack railways just feel kinda slow going
> downhill actually' while you have the fantastic view to look at! If you
> catch one of the new trains, try to be at the very front of the platform
> when the train arrives on its previous journey - there's a very bizarre
> chaise-longue seat right next to the driver!

I'm hoping for a steam trip up next time.

>
> If you are also doing Pilatus while you are in the area, I similarly
> recommend going up by train and down by cable car.

Again, I did it the other way.

>
> Elsewhere in the Vierwaldstättersee region - I found Titlis underwhelming
> and overrated. Visit Stanserhorn instead.

I enjoyed both, on the same day.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157655286333390

https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157655028355348

> If you're going to Stoos to ride the new funicular,

Yes, that's the plan.

> take the chairlift onwards to Fronalpstock for another
> spectacular view.

Yes, enjoyed that last time, in 2015:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157656613368276

On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>
>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>
>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>
>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>
>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>
>
> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>

Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
car unit!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>
>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>
>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>
>>
>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>
>>>>
>>>> A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
>>>> Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
>>>> standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
>>>> <https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>
>>>
>>> Wow! Are they fitted with cog wheels?
>>>
>>> I hope to return to the Rigi this spring, but they'll probably have gone by
>>> then.
>>>
>>
>> There's enough track in the station and depot area which is level enough
>> for it to be useful for testing.
>>
>> Have you been to Rigi before, btw?
>
> Yes, of course.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157656443743316
>

Kräbel cable car has had new vehicles since then. The hike along the
abandoned railway line from there to Rigi Scheidegg is very pleasant.

>> My recommendation, if you're doing both
>> sides of the railway, is to go up from Arth Goldau and down to Vitznau -
>
> I did it the other way.
>

Me too, first time. Hence why I now recommend people to do it the other
way!

>> that way you get the 'wow aren't rack railways amazing how they climb steep
>> hills' going one way and the 'rack railways just feel kinda slow going
>> downhill actually' while you have the fantastic view to look at! If you
>> catch one of the new trains, try to be at the very front of the platform
>> when the train arrives on its previous journey - there's a very bizarre
>> chaise-longue seat right next to the driver!
>
> I'm hoping for a steam trip up next time.
>

Aah excellent.

>>
>> If you are also doing Pilatus while you are in the area, I similarly
>> recommend going up by train and down by cable car.
>
> Again, I did it the other way.
>

Me too, first time. Hence why I now recommend people to do it the other
way!

>>
>> Elsewhere in the Vierwaldstättersee region - I found Titlis underwhelming
>> and overrated. Visit Stanserhorn instead.
>
> I enjoyed both, on the same day.
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157655286333390
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157655028355348
>

Do you agree with my verdict of Pilatus?

>> If you're going to Stoos to ride the new funicular,
>
> Yes, that's the plan.
>
>> take the chairlift onwards to Fronalpstock for another
>> spectacular view.
>
> Yes, enjoyed that last time, in 2015:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157656613368276
>

Last year I planned to hike from Klingenstock to Fronalpstock but
unfortunately the cloud was too low.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>
>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>
>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>
>>
>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>
>
> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
> car unit!

I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
with brake force?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 19/01/2023 12:43, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>
>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>
>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>
>>
>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>> car unit!
>
> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
> with brake force?
>

More likely coupling problems, though they have translator wagons, if
they just split two locos and put one each end. Though that would mean
you only had the power output of one loco available for traction at any
one time.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>
>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>
>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>
>>
>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>> car unit!
>
>I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>with brake force?

Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
control and brake systems.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>
>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>
>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>
>>
>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>
>
> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
> car unit!
>

I think it's about what was available, recently (fsvo) overhauled, cheap
and reliable at the time when it was needed.

AFAIK RailAdventure's core business is moving new trains around; they
wanted to avoid the possibility of hauling one manufacturer's stock with a
competitor's locomotive, so made a deliberate decision to go for retro
stock. Their German fleet includes a Class 103 express electric locomotive,
for example. Their UK fleet includes a class 50.

At the time when they were building their UK fleet, what other reliable,
refurbished locomotives were immediately available, surplus to
requirements? The ubiquitous class 37, I suppose, someone usually seems to
have some of those available, but perhaps not recently refurbished
examples.

Once you've decided to go for buffer-fitted HST power cars for your fleet,
other factors come into play. You obviously need to run them as a pair, to
have a cab each end (you've also potentially doubled reliability, because
one PC will be powerful enough to run the train, so if one fails for an
engine or electrical reason, you can still run). If there's a reversal on
route, you'll want a pair of locos on the other end too (plus it will
simply shunting).

To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
(though that could also be just a bolt-on item).

Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
maintenance requirements).

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>> car unit!
>>
>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>> with brake force?
>
> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
> control and brake systems.

Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
only 4500 hp, then.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>> car unit!
>>>
>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>> with brake force?
>>
>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>> control and brake systems.
>
> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
> only 4500 hp, then.
>

Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
being dragged on steam excursions?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/01/2023 01:54, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
> new ownership?

I was watching the Crewe Railcam last night and was surprised to see the
777 delivery train with its pairs of HST power cars topping and tailing
leaving for Liverpool.
--
Dave,
Frodsham

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>> car unit!
>>>>
>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>> with brake force?
>>>
>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>> control and brake systems.
>>
>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>
>
> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
> being dragged on steam excursions?
>

In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
and no steep gradients are expected.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>
>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>
>>
>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>
>
> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker?

Sorry, I meant so the diesel can act as a banker for the steam engine, if
needed.

> They don’t
> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
> and no steep gradients are expected.
>
>

On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>
>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>
>>
>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>
>
> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
> and no steep gradients are expected.
>

Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/01/2023 16:24, Recliner wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>
>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker?
>
> Sorry, I meant so the diesel can act as a banker for the steam engine, if
> needed.
>

:-) Understood.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 14:29:38 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>> car unit!
>>>
>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>> with brake force?
>>
>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>> control and brake systems.
>
>Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>only 4500 hp, then.
>
>Sam

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>> car unit!
>>>>
>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>> with brake force?
>>>
>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>> control and brake systems.
>>
>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>
>
> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
> being dragged on steam excursions?
>

You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
that.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>
>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
>> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
>> and no steep gradients are expected.
>>
>
> Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
> on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
> AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.
>

More usually for ease of shunting, or perhaps it terminates at somewhere
without run-round facilities.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>
>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>
>>
>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>
>
>You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>that.
>
Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
indications?

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:46:07 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>
>>You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>>that.
>>
>Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>indications?
>
Ah, hauled dead in train (4 above) not providing any power/assistance
(3 above).

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>
>> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>> that.
>>
> Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
> indications?
>

Not if they're shut down and completely dead. Also not if they're connected
to the lead loco by the usual multiple workin equipment. But in the
scenario of the rear locos in this train running at idle, neither of those
things apply.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>
>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
>> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
>> and no steep gradients are expected.
>>
>
> Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
> on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
> AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.
>

Are there some excursions where the diesel provides the power for electric
heating and other hotel loads or do all the operators now have a generator
coach?

GH

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:55:55 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That?s
>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>
>>>
>>> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>>> that.
>>>
>> Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>> indications?
>>
>
>Not if they're shut down and completely dead. Also not if they're connected
>to the lead loco by the usual multiple workin equipment. But in the
>scenario of the rear locos in this train running at idle, neither of those
>things apply.
>
[see P.S. to the above]

Is there any current locomotive/MU where something has to be
specifically switched off (other than what is naturally off when
parked for the night) or disconnected when hauled dead in train? ISTR
you could do nasty things to earlier DMUs.