On 19/01/2023 19:12, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>
>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>
>>
>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>
>
> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
> that.

As they do on steam excursions. I was thinking it was a way of avoiding
cold starts.

>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 19/01/2023 19:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>
>>>
>>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
>>> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
>>> and no steep gradients are expected.
>>>
>>
>> Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
>> on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
>> AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.
>>
>
> More usually for ease of shunting, or perhaps it terminates at somewhere
> without run-round facilities.
>
>

London Victoria in this case. Seems excessive to drag the loco all the
way from Victoria, round the Surrey Hills and back to Victoria, though I
suppose there is nowhere convenient to stable it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 19/01/2023 19:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
>>>> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
>>>> and no steep gradients are expected.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
>>> on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
>>> AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.
>>>
>>
>> More usually for ease of shunting, or perhaps it terminates at somewhere
>> without run-round facilities.
>>
>>
>
> London Victoria in this case. Seems excessive to drag the loco all the
> way from Victoria, round the Surrey Hills and back to Victoria, though I
> suppose there is nowhere convenient to stable it.
>

Stewarts Lane?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:55:55 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That?s
>>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>> Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>>> indications?
>>>
>>
>> Not if they're shut down and completely dead. Also not if they're connected
>> to the lead loco by the usual multiple workin equipment. But in the
>> scenario of the rear locos in this train running at idle, neither of those
>> things apply.
>>
> [see P.S. to the above]
>
> Is there any current locomotive/MU where something has to be
> specifically switched off (other than what is naturally off when
> parked for the night) or disconnected when hauled dead in train?
>

Not my particular area of expertise but AIUI most stock has a safety
feature (BR called it SSF or Speed Sensing Fitted) which applies the brakes
if the traction unit moves at over 3mph with no driver key in the desk.
Usually there's either a way to isolate that, or you isolate the brake
controller, or you switch the Battery Isolation Switch (BIS) off which
renders the vehicle completely dead.

> ISTR
> you could do nasty things to earlier DMUs.
>

Transmission-wise, the vacuum-braked DMMUs you needed to isolate the final
drive if they were being hauled dead (and that applied per engine/power
bogie, eg if an engine shut down and wouldn't restart, out came the
'toasting fork' to isolate it). 2nd gen hydraulic gearbox stock (14x 15x
16x) doesn't need that, IIRC. I don't know about the modern
mechanical-gearbox stock (eg 172, 196). Stock with electric transmission is
obviously ok.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Fri, 20 Jan 2023 02:03:46 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:55:55 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That?s
>>>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>>>>> that.
>>>>>
>>>> Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>>>> indications?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not if they're shut down and completely dead. Also not if they're connected
>>> to the lead loco by the usual multiple workin equipment. But in the
>>> scenario of the rear locos in this train running at idle, neither of those
>>> things apply.
>>>
>> [see P.S. to the above]
>>
>> Is there any current locomotive/MU where something has to be
>> specifically switched off (other than what is naturally off when
>> parked for the night) or disconnected when hauled dead in train?
>>
>
>Not my particular area of expertise but AIUI most stock has a safety
>feature (BR called it SSF or Speed Sensing Fitted) which applies the brakes
>if the traction unit moves at over 3mph with no driver key in the desk.
>Usually there's either a way to isolate that, or you isolate the brake
>controller, or you switch the Battery Isolation Switch (BIS) off which
>renders the vehicle completely dead.
>
>> ISTR
>> you could do nasty things to earlier DMUs.
>>
>
>Transmission-wise, the vacuum-braked DMMUs you needed to isolate the final
>drive if they were being hauled dead (and that applied per engine/power
>bogie, eg if an engine shut down and wouldn't restart, out came the
>'toasting fork' to isolate it).
>
That is more what I had in mind so that e.g. you didn't end up
cranking an oil-less engine or working the transmission the wrong way
round.

>2nd gen hydraulic gearbox stock (14x 15x
>16x) doesn't need that, IIRC. I don't know about the modern
>mechanical-gearbox stock (eg 172, 196). Stock with electric transmission is
>obviously ok.
>
Even with DC motors which could work as generators when wheel-driven
or does the control gear keep the necessary bits isolated?

In message <0e7jshhlusj0ech0b10gmkbvdp9h0oedg9@4ax.com>, at 19:46:07 on
Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
><anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming
>>>>>>>>>>Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches,
>>>>>>>>>>including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>> in the snow.
>>>>>>>>>><https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the
>>>>>>>>>>first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of
>>>>>>>>>>RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for
>>>>>>>>>>these in their
>>>>>>>>>> new ownership?
>>>>>>>>>><https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler
>>>>>>>>delivery runs
>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>
>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>
>>You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted to do
>>that.
>>
>Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>indications?

Last time this issue of diesel crews came up, the answer was "they'll
always have a crew, in walkie talkie contact with the steam loco, even
if they just sit there doing nothing most of the time".
--
Roland Perry

On 19/01/2023 23:21, Recliner wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 19/01/2023 19:22, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 16:18, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move one 4
>>>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I thought so too - that’s of the order of 9000 hp. Maybe something to do
>>>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about compatible
>>>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered. That’s
>>>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the diesels
>>>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> In that case, isn’t it so the steam engine can act as a banker? They don’t
>>>>> always run, particularly if the kettle is in good health, the track is dry,
>>>>> and no steep gradients are expected.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Other way round, the diesel can act as a banker; though hardly required
>>>> on the Belmond Pullman excursions round Surrey but it is still provided.
>>>> AIUI its mainly in case the steam engine fails en route.
>>>>
>>>
>>> More usually for ease of shunting, or perhaps it terminates at somewhere
>>> without run-round facilities.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> London Victoria in this case. Seems excessive to drag the loco all the
>> way from Victoria, round the Surrey Hills and back to Victoria, though I
>> suppose there is nowhere convenient to stable it.
>>
>
> Stewarts Lane?
>

Would involve two extra paths between SL and Victoria but hardly a
show-stopper.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 20/01/2023 05:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <0e7jshhlusj0ech0b10gmkbvdp9h0oedg9@4ax.com>, at 19:46:07 on
> Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:
>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:12:47 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 19/01/2023 14:29, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>>> Christopher A. Lee <c.lee@fairpoint.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:43:26 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 19/01/2023 02:58, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming
>>>>>>>>>>> Stadler fleets
>>>>>>>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service,
>>>>>>>>>>> 231007
>>>>>>>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches,
>>>>>>>>>>> including Rhymney
>>>>>>>>>>> in the snow.
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the
>>>>>>>>>>> first ones may be
>>>>>>>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of
>>>>>>>>>>> RailAdventure
>>>>>>>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for
>>>>>>>>>>> these in their
>>>>>>>>>>> new ownership?
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler
>>>>>>>>> delivery runs
>>>>>>>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Seems rather excessive, 4 high power diesel locomotives to move
>>>>>>>> one 4
>>>>>>>> car unit!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I thought so too - that?s of the order of 9000 hp.  Maybe
>>>>>>> something to do
>>>>>>> with brake force?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps the rear pair are being dragged dead, the extra weight would
>>>>>> add to the brake force? Which raises another question about
>>>>>> compatible
>>>>>> control and brake systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna has confirmed that the trailing pair would not be powered.
>>>>> That’s
>>>>> only 4500 hp, then.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Though would they have the engines running on tickover, like the
>>>> diesels
>>>> being dragged on steam excursions?
>>>
>>> You'd need a crew member travelling in one of the cabs, if you wanted
>>> to do
>>> that.
>>>
>> Don't you need that anyway to watch for any alarms or other adverse
>> indications?
>
> Last time this issue of diesel crews came up, the answer was "they'll
> always have a crew, in walkie talkie contact with the steam loco, even
> if they just sit there doing nothing most of the time".

Reading the S*n last time I looked :-)
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
> power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
> the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
> wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
> (though that could also be just a bolt-on item).
>
> Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
> coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
> doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
> engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
> maintenance requirements).

There is video of the procession passing Rugeley at
<https://youtu.be/_1-_xsh-AAk>. At around 06:00 there is definitely a heat
haze of some sort above at least the third power car and maybe the 4th too.
Whether it’s idling of running some sort of preheater I don’t know. HSTs
aren’t fitted with any kind of dynamic braking, are they?

Sam
--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 21/01/2023 22:53, Sam Wilson wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
>> power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
>> the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
>> wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
>> (though that could also be just a bolt-on item).
>>
>> Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
>> coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
>> doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
>> engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
>> maintenance requirements).
>
> There is video of the procession passing Rugeley at
> <https://youtu.be/_1-_xsh-AAk>. At around 06:00 there is definitely a heat
> haze of some sort above at least the third power car and maybe the 4th too.
> Whether it’s idling of running some sort of preheater I don’t know. HSTs
> aren’t fitted with any kind of dynamic braking, are they?
>

Though I seem to remember that when the 43s were used as glorified
control trailers, continually running on tickover caused its own problems.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 11:46:04 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/01/2023 22:53, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
>>> power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
>>> the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
>>> wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
>>> (though that could also be just a bolt-on item).
>>>
>>> Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
>>> coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
>>> doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
>>> engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
>>> maintenance requirements).
>>
>> There is video of the procession passing Rugeley at
>> <https://youtu.be/_1-_xsh-AAk>. At around 06:00 there is definitely a heat
>> haze of some sort above at least the third power car and maybe the 4th too.
>> Whether it’s idling of running some sort of preheater I don’t know. HSTs
>> aren’t fitted with any kind of dynamic braking, are they?
>>
>
>Though I seem to remember that when the 43s were used as glorified
>control trailers, continually running on tickover caused its own problems.

Yes, I think that's right, so they needed to be actually generating power.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 11:46:04 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 21/01/2023 22:53, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
>>>> power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
>>>> the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
>>>> wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
>>>> (though that could also be just a bolt-on item).
>>>>
>>>> Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
>>>> coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
>>>> doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
>>>> engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
>>>> maintenance requirements).
>>>
>>> There is video of the procession passing Rugeley at
>>> <https://youtu.be/_1-_xsh-AAk>. At around 06:00 there is definitely a heat
>>> haze of some sort above at least the third power car and maybe the 4th too.
>>> Whether it’s idling of running some sort of preheater I don’t know. HSTs
>>> aren’t fitted with any kind of dynamic braking, are they?
>>>
>>
>> Though I seem to remember that when the 43s were used as glorified
>> control trailers, continually running on tickover caused its own problems.
>
> Yes, I think that's right, so they needed to be actually generating power.

Was that with the original Valenta setup or was it (still?) a problem with
the VP185 and MTU versions?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 22 Jan 2023 11:46:04 +0000, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/01/2023 22:53, Sam Wilson wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>> To address a few other points raised elsewhere in the thread: the rear two
>>>>> power cars will be shut down, HST multiple working is only in pairs, plus
>>>>> the connection through the unbraked unit will only be an air pipe. The
>>>>> wagons provide the extra braking force, as well as a coupler translation
>>>>> (though that could also be just a bolt-on item).
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably they've found a solution to the requirement to pre-heat the MTU
>>>>> coolant before starting -or perhaps their usage will be low enough that it
>>>>> doesn't worry them (in passenger service, MTU imposed a 'penalty' of 100
>>>>> engine hours for every cold start, ie shortening the time between
>>>>> maintenance requirements).
>>>>
>>>> There is video of the procession passing Rugeley at
>>>> <https://youtu.be/_1-_xsh-AAk>. At around 06:00 there is definitely a heat
>>>> haze of some sort above at least the third power car and maybe the 4th too.
>>>> Whether it’s idling of running some sort of preheater I don’t know. HSTs
>>>> aren’t fitted with any kind of dynamic braking, are they?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Though I seem to remember that when the 43s were used as glorified
>>> control trailers, continually running on tickover caused its own problems.
>>
>> Yes, I think that's right, so they needed to be actually generating power.
>
> Was that with the original Valenta setup or was it (still?) a problem with
> the VP185 and MTU versions?

That was with the original Valentas. I don't know if it still applies with
the newer engines.

On Thu, 19 Jan 2023 12:13:49 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> A number of new things occurred with the UK's forthcoming Stadler fleets
>>>>> *checks time* yesterday.
>>>>>
>>>>> The first of TfW's class 231 Stadler Flirts entered service, 231007
>>>>> carrying passengers to various Cardiff Valleys branches, including Rhymney
>>>>> in the snow. <https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1615701697459888129>
>>>>>
>>>>> Merseyrail's class 777s finally approved for service, the first ones may be
>>>>> running on the Kirby line on Monday.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-64304865>
>>>>>
>>>>> The latest delivery of 777s are being moved between pairs of RailAdventure
>>>>> HST power cars - is this the first revenue-earning use for these in their
>>>>> new ownership? <https://twitter.com/burbagefox1/status/1615794504841453569>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not aware of any previous ones.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Me neither. It seems they may become regular on the Stadler delivery runs
>>> to Liverpool and Newcastle.
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> A couple of days earlier, one of the new TW Metro class 555 trains visited
>>>>> Rigi Bahn at Arth-Goldau for some testing - I think this is the only
>>>>> standard gauge 1500V DC in Switzerland?
>>>>> <https://twitter.com/my_metro/status/1614948144030031872>
>>>>
>>>> Wow! Are they fitted with cog wheels?
>>>>
>>>> I hope to return to the Rigi this spring, but they'll probably have gone by
>>>> then.
>>>>
>>>
>>> There's enough track in the station and depot area which is level enough
>>> for it to be useful for testing.
>>>
>>> Have you been to Rigi before, btw?
>>
>> Yes, of course.
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/albums/72157656443743316
>>
>
>Kräbel cable car has had new vehicles since then. The hike along the
>abandoned railway line from there to Rigi Scheidegg is very pleasant.
>
>>> My recommendation, if you're doing both
>>> sides of the railway, is to go up from Arth Goldau and down to Vitznau -
>>
>> I did it the other way.
>>
>
>Me too, first time. Hence why I now recommend people to do it the other
>way!
>
>>> that way you get the 'wow aren't rack railways amazing how they climb steep
>>> hills' going one way and the 'rack railways just feel kinda slow going
>>> downhill actually' while you have the fantastic view to look at! If you
>>> catch one of the new trains, try to be at the very front of the platform
>>> when the train arrives on its previous journey - there's a very bizarre
>>> chaise-longue seat right next to the driver!
>>
>> I'm hoping for a steam trip up next time.
>>
>
>Aah excellent.

I've now added two more recent sets of pictures of rare Swiss steam trains, slotted between regular scheduled electric
trains:

<https://www.flickr.com/photos/recliner/collections/72157721887679775/>

None of the steam locos (all built by SLM in Winterthur) featured were built later than 1909, and one is SLM's very
first loco, from 1873.