On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 10:07:12 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 17:59:50 +0100, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 30 Oct 2021 01:26:17 +0200, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 22:44:18 +0100, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:21:11 +0200, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>I only ever dismantled the top end on one bike, my XT500, back in 1979
>>>>>>or so. If memory serves me I'm pretty sure it had ball bearing races
>>>>>>at each end of the cam.
>>>>
>>>>Yeah, the related SR500 lumps had ballraces.
>>>
>>>Related? 100% identical.
>>
>>Not quite. The XT had a different alternator and detail differences in
>>the ignition system, I believe.
>
>Dynamo, ITYF.

Closer to a magneto IIRC (but it was a long time ago so ICBW): two
coils, one single phase AC for electrics, one for ignition, a bit like
a 125's but bigger.

>Yeah, sure, now I come to think about it there were some minor
>differences, most notably a heavier flywheel in the SR, making the XT
>much more easily revving.

Didn't know about the flywheel, but it makes sense.

--

-Pip

On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 18:44:40 +0000, Pipl <pluscher@live.co.uk> wrote:

>>>Not quite. The XT had a different alternator and detail differences in
>>>the ignition system, I believe.
>>
>>Dynamo, ITYF.
>
>Closer to a magneto IIRC (but it was a long time ago so ICBW): two
>coils, one single phase AC for electrics, one for ignition, a bit like
>a 125's but bigger.

Lord knows, but it's way beyond my electrical ken.

I did a 1V battery-free conversion to mine, mainly due to lack of
funds and parts, but lack of knowledge was certainly up there. Still
if you don't know that you don't know, it might just work, eh?

The ignition circuit was completely seperate, and having tested the
output from the magneto (yes, that sounds right) and found it was
kicking out more than 12V at anything abouve 1500rpm, I fitted a xener
(sp?) diode and headlight off a Triumph, courtesy of my local
breaker's shop, and put 12V bulbs in the rear and stop lights.
Indicators had long since been removed, so no probs there.

By this time it also had a Kawasaki front end - forks, yoke, disc
brake and front wheel from KH250 and Z900 (I forget exactly which was
which) and it all just slotted together. Flat bars, proper rat
bike/cafe racer. Ran well like that for a while until the little end
bearing decided to give up the ghost, or rather until the fact that it
was totally seized and the gudgeon pin was actually roatating within
the piston caused a massive and terminal seize-up. I stripped it,
looked at it, decided I couldn't possibly afford to get the engine
rebuilt, even if it were possibly to bore out the cylinder enough to
get rid of the deep gouges in it, so I ended up flogging it as a wreck
to a neighbour for 50 quid. Shame.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 13:21:11 +0200, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 29 Oct 2021 11:38:21 +0100, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Pretty much every single Japanese bike, that I'm aware of, runs the
>>cams without bearings. Including every Kawasaki
>
>I only ever dismantled the top end on one bike, my XT500, back in 1979
>or so. If memory serves me I'm pretty sure it had ball bearing races
>at each end of the cam.

Yeah, ok - dunno about weird singles etc. I was talking about
4-cylinder UJMs

And, re other comment elsewhere - yes, I know a plain bearing is still
a bearing. The distinction is that the bearing surface for the
camshafts in a typical Jap four *is* the cylinder head itself - there
is no separate/replaceable bearing insert
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sun, 31 Oct 2021 23:41:21 +0100, Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote:

>By this time it also had a Kawasaki front end - forks, yoke, disc
>brake and front wheel from KH250 and Z900 (I forget exactly which was
>which) and it all just slotted together. Flat bars, proper rat
>bike/cafe racer. Ran well like that for a while until the little end
>bearing decided to give up the ghost, or rather until the fact that it
>was totally seized and the gudgeon pin was actually roatating within
>the piston caused a massive and terminal seize-up. I stripped it,
>looked at it, decided I couldn't possibly afford to get the engine
>rebuilt, even if it were possibly to bore out the cylinder enough to
>get rid of the deep gouges in it, so I ended up flogging it as a wreck
>to a neighbour for 50 quid. Shame.

Yeah, I regret selling my V11 when a big end went. Partly I wanted to
try a 1200, which is nice, reasonably reliable (just don't mention
stepper motors or solenoid wiring) pretty to look at and well
equipped. More of a roadster than the V11 though.

--

-Pip

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

> And, re other comment elsewhere - yes, I know a plain bearing is still
> a bearing. The distinction is that the bearing surface for the
> camshafts in a typical Jap four *is* the cylinder head itself - there
> is no separate/replaceable bearing insert

That's how I remembered the cam & head in the '84 XL 600 I had. At the
time, I understood the difference wrt reliability was the oil flow to
lubricate those 'bearings'. And that this was a problem area of the XL
600 design.

--
ts // scrap vehicle to send e-mail
Finally four Boxers!

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 21:36:46 +0200, (ts) wrote:
>
> >> I think it's bloody lovely. How much is he asking for it?
>
> >Around £ 1400 in my local currency.

> But, that's not to say that it isn't still a good bike, and definitely
> worth 1400 quid

Due to work I didn't get a chance to look at it until last weekend. As
many bikes of that age, it wasn't as pretty close up as the pictures
could suggest, and when idling at lower RPMs than in the posted YOUtube
video, the engine/camchain rattled like a Ducati dry clutch. But since
the owner really wanted to see it go, he accepted my offer for it, so
now I own my first Kawasaki.

--
ts // scrap vehicle to send e-mail
Finally four Boxers!

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:58:18 +0100, exbn-ppin@deaVOLVO.spamcon.org
(ts) wrote:

>Due to work I didn't get a chance to look at it until last weekend. As
>many bikes of that age, it wasn't as pretty close up as the pictures
>could suggest, and when idling at lower RPMs than in the posted YOUtube
>video, the engine/camchain rattled like a Ducati dry clutch. But since
>the owner really wanted to see it go, he accepted my offer for it, so
>now I own my first Kawasaki.

Heh - congratulations!

Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent). But the
fix is easy enough...

The camchain tensioner is located at the back of the engine block,
under the carbs. It consists of a spring loaded plunger that pushes
in against the camchain guide (in the direction of travel of the
bike), and a second spring loaded plunger, at 90 degrees to the first
(from right to left), which stops the first one moving backwards once
it has advanced.

First off, just remove and clean the second, locking, plunger. 17mm
socket on an extension will remove the cover, pull out the plunger and
spring. The angled surface of the plunger interacts with a similar
angled surface of the main tensioner. Clean up this surface of the
removed locking tensioner with bit of fine emery/wet and dry, apply
some oil to the surface, and refit. If this doesn't make it better,
you need to take the whole attembly off, and clean/smooth both
tenioners, which is fiddly, but do-able (2 x 6mm bolts on back of
cylinder block).

*** WARNING ***
Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
partially or fully removed.

Lemme know what you find...
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:26:08 +0000, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
>tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
>that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent). But the
>fix is easy enough...

Sounds very similar to the method that TOG advised me to use on the
Honda 400/4. Unsurprising, I suppose, that similar designs resulted in
similar problems and similar fixes.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 11/11/2021 08:26, Champ wrote:
>
> Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
> tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
> that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent). But the
> fix is easy enough...
<snip>

I remember doing this to my GPz550.

You forgot to mention needing hands with the size and dexterity of a
Japanese gynaecologist.

--
Eddie eddie@deguello.org

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:38:33 +0000, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:

>On 11/11/2021 08:26, Champ wrote:
>>
>> Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
>> tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
>> that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent). But the
>> fix is easy enough...
><snip>

>I remember doing this to my GPz550.

Yep - the 550 and 750 were both based on the original z650 engine,
with same camchain tensioner mechanism

>You forgot to mention needing hands with the size and dexterity of a
>Japanese gynaecologist.

Backn in the day when I had these bikes, I also had suitably sized and
flexible hands...unlike the lumps I have now .... broken fingers are
still repairing
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>
>
> *** WARNING ***
> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
> partially or fully removed.

What happened when you did?

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>
>>
>> *** WARNING ***
>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>> partially or fully removed.
>
>What happened when you did?

You risk the camchain jumping a tooth or two on a sprocket and
throwing out the valve timing. Worst case, enough for valves to try to
occcupy the same space as the pistons with comedy results.

Often, the chain is tight enough that that won't happen, but it is a
risk not worth taking.

--

-Pip

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 12:33:33 +0000, Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 10:38:33 +0000, Eddie <eddie@deguello.org> wrote:
>
>>On 11/11/2021 08:26, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>> Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
>>> tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
>>> that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent). But the
>>> fix is easy enough...
>><snip>
>
>>I remember doing this to my GPz550.
>
>Yep - the 550 and 750 were both based on the original z650 engine,
>with same camchain tensioner mechanism

The watercooled GPZs had a new design - K put the camchain on the end
of the crank, to make replacing the tensioner *much* easier.
--
Salad Dodger
1690 FLHTK;GL1800D
Previously ...
CB1300SA8;GL1800A6;GL1500SEV;CBR1100XXX;
CBR1000FL;CBX1000Z;GPz750R;Z750E1;Z650C2;
KH500A8;KH250B3;TS250c;TS185c.

On 11/11/2021 10:38, Eddie wrote:
> On 11/11/2021 08:26, Champ wrote:
>>
>> Re camchain rattle: In that era Kawasaki had an "automatice camchain
>> tensioner", that wasn't that automatic (perenial problem at the time
>> that all the jap manufacturers suffered with to some extent).  But the
>> fix is easy enough...
> <snip>
>
> I remember doing this to my GPz550.
>
> You forgot to mention needing hands with the size and dexterity of a
> Japanese gynaecologist.
>

I was going to do it on my 4/4, except I ten noticed it was missing.
Managed to get my money back.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Salad Dodger <salad.dodger@idnet.com> wrote:

> The watercooled GPZs had a new design - K put the camchain on the end
> of the crank, to make replacing the tensioner *much* easier.

Also changed from chain primary to geared primary drive, which helps
elminate some of the lash if the carbs aren't perfectly synced.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On Thursday, 11 November 2021 at 19:12:44 UTC, YTC#1 wrote:

> I was going to do it on my 4/4, except I ten noticed it was missing.
> Managed to get my money back.

I had some kwak 4 or other; Z550? Z500? GT750? GPZ/X600? that had had the
tensioner 'modified' with the automatic bit removed and a plain bolt tapped into it so I
guess you just tightened it up when the bike got rattly. It wasn't a bodge since
it had a nut to lock it against what remained of the tensioner body...

I *think* I replaced it with a proper tensioner when I replaced the cam chain and all of
the associated gubbins. I've spent a fortune fixing bodges^w other people's running repairs
on SOBs and then selling the bike shortly afterwards for less than I paid for it. I didn't ever
learn not to do this.

On 11/11/2021 20:24, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Thursday, 11 November 2021 at 19:12:44 UTC, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> I was going to do it on my 4/4, except I ten noticed it was missing.
>> Managed to get my money back.
>
> I had some kwak 4 or other; Z550? Z500? GT750? GPZ/X600? that had had the
> tensioner 'modified' with the automatic bit removed and a plain bolt tapped into it so I
> guess you just tightened it up when the bike got rattly. It wasn't a bodge since
> it had a nut to lock it against what remained of the tensioner body...
>
> I *think* I replaced it with a proper tensioner when I replaced the cam chain and all of
> the associated gubbins. I've spent a fortune fixing bodges^w other people's running repairs
> on SOBs and then selling the bike shortly afterwards for less than I paid for it. I didn't ever
> learn not to do this.
>

I only bodge when 100% necessary, usually on the road. The rest of the
time I pay a man to do it roperly for me.

Saying that, when younger as longs as it ran, and the wheels went round
I was smiling.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, 11 November 2021 at 19:12:44 UTC, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> I was going to do it on my 4/4, except I ten noticed it was missing.
>> Managed to get my money back.
>
> I had some kwak 4 or other; Z550? Z500? GT750? GPZ/X600? that had
> had the tensioner 'modified' with the automatic bit removed and a
> plain bolt tapped into it so I guess you just tightened it up when
> the bike got rattly. It wasn't a bodge since it had a nut to lock
> it against what remained of the tensioner body...
>
> I *think* I replaced it with a proper tensioner when I replaced the
> cam chain and all of the associated gubbins. I've spent a fortune
> fixing bodges^w other people's running repairs on SOBs and then
> selling the bike shortly afterwards for less than I paid for it.
> I didn't ever learn not to do this.

Also the story of my mechanical life. I can't stand half-arsed
fixes and I invariably buy a SOB for more than it's worth, fix most
everything that was done wrong by previous owners, and sell it for less
than it is now worth. Sometimes I get more than I paid but not always.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, Pipl wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> *** WARNING ***
>>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>>> partially or fully removed.
>>
>> What happened when you did?
>
> You risk the camchain jumping a tooth or two on a sprocket and
> throwing out the valve timing. Worst case, enough for valves to try to
> occcupy the same space as the pistons with comedy results.
>
> Often, the chain is tight enough that that won't happen, but it is a
> risk not worth taking.
>
Ahem. I wasn't asking you.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 12/11/2021 01:30, Turby wrote:
> On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, Pipl wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** WARNING ***
>>>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>>>> partially or fully removed.
>>>
>>> What happened when you did?
>>
>>   You risk the camchain jumping a tooth or two on a sprocket and
>> throwing out the valve timing. Worst case, enough for valves to try to
>> occcupy the same space as the pistons with comedy results.
>>
>> Often, the chain is tight enough that that won't happen, but it is a
>> risk not worth taking.
>>
> Ahem. I wasn't asking you.
>

New Here Are You?

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>
>>
>> *** WARNING ***
>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>> partially or fully removed.

>What happened when you did?

I've never done it, if that's what you're insinuating :-)

Otherwise, I refer you to the excellent answer provided by PipL
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 17:30:26 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>On 11/11/2021 10:32 AM, Pipl wrote:
>> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *** WARNING ***
>>>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>>>> partially or fully removed.
>>>
>>> What happened when you did?
>>
>> You risk the camchain jumping a tooth or two on a sprocket and
>> throwing out the valve timing. Worst case, enough for valves to try to
>> occcupy the same space as the pistons with comedy results.
>>
>> Often, the chain is tight enough that that won't happen, but it is a
>> risk not worth taking.
>>
>Ahem. I wasn't asking you.

Ah. Silly me.

--

-Pip

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
> (ts) wrote:
>
> > . . so now I own my first Kawasaki.
>
> Re camchain rattle:

(snip)
> First off, just remove and clean the second, locking, plunger. 17mm
> socket on an extension will remove the cover, pull out the plunger and
> spring. The angled surface of the plunger interacts with a similar
> angled surface of the main tensioner. Clean up this surface of the
> removed locking tensioner with bit of fine emery/wet and dry, apply
> some oil to the surface, and refit. If this doesn't make it better,
> you need to take the whole attembly off, and clean/smooth both
> tenioners, which is fiddly, but do-able (2 x 6mm bolts on back of
> cylinder block).

Many thanks for excellent service guidelines :-)

I had a go at the tensioner this afternoon. The second plunger came off
easily, but my 5 mm Allen keys were too long to fit the main assembly
bolts. Must find a suitable bit and ring spanner combo to get them off.

It may look like the main plunger is stuck; the wear/contact area of the
secondary plunger had several scratches suggestiong the interaction
hasn't worked as intended. And I'm pretty sure a small nut fell out of
the cover, probably because a bodger has tried to increase the spring
pressure by adding that nut.

Picture of removed secondary assembly :

<https://i.postimg.cc/L6kFPDRh/Outer-plunger-3061.jpg>

When googling, I foud several reports about the tensioner problems, and
also noticed that a manual replacement is offered, eg. eBay co uk item
number 163968160084. If the main assembly plunger is damaged, the
aftermarket one may be the way to go.

--
ts // scrap vehicle to send e-mail
Finally four Boxers!

On 11/12/2021 12:59 PM, Champ wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Nov 2021 08:22:59 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 11/11/2021 12:26 AM, Champ wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> *** WARNING ***
>>> Never, *ever* turn over the engine with the camchain tensioner
>>> partially or fully removed.
>
>> What happened when you did?
>
> I've never done it, if that's what you're insinuating :-)

Really? I thought sure you had a good story to tell.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS, ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Sat, 13 Nov 2021 16:30:46 +0100, exbn-ppin@deaVOLVO.spamcon.org
(ts) wrote:

>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

>> Re camchain rattle:
>
>Many thanks for excellent service guidelines :-)

Happy to help :-)

>I had a go at the tensioner this afternoon. The second plunger came off
>easily, but my 5 mm Allen keys were too long to fit the main assembly
>bolts. Must find a suitable bit and ring spanner combo to get them off.

I'm very sure the original fasteners were M6 hex bolts (10mm head), so
if it's now held on woth allen head bolts, they've been changed
anyway. No bad idea, tho.

>It may look like the main plunger is stuck; the wear/contact area of the
>secondary plunger had several scratches suggestiong the interaction
>hasn't worked as intended. And I'm pretty sure a small nut fell out of
>the cover, probably because a bodger has tried to increase the spring
>pressure by adding that nut.
>
>Picture of removed secondary assembly :
>
><https://i.postimg.cc/L6kFPDRh/Outer-plunger-3061.jpg>

That doesn't look too bad. Clean it up with emery, as said. The nut
behind the spring is/was a standard bodge, although, as this is just
the locking plunger, it's in the wrong place.

>When googling, I foud several reports about the tensioner problems, and
>also noticed that a manual replacement is offered, eg. eBay co uk item
>number 163968160084. If the main assembly plunger is damaged, the
>aftermarket one may be the way to go.

I'd suggest getting and fitting that anyway. As I said, the automatic
system just never really worked properly, and that looks like a
decent mod
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old