On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>
>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>
>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>> get away with it.
>
> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.

So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
destinations any more.

I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.

And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
people either.

So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?

Cheers from Alan Jones.

Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
> On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>
>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>
>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>> get away with it.
>>
>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>
> So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
> join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
> need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
> destinations any more.
>
> I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
> Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
> nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.
>
> And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
> people either.
>
> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?

Ireland can't be a member of both Schengen and the CTA; it's one or the
other (or neither, of course).

On 17/06/2023 21:39, Recliner wrote:
> Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>> On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>>
>>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>>> get away with it.
>>>
>>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>>
>> So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
>> join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
>> need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
>> destinations any more.
>>
>> I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
>> Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
>> nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.
>>
>> And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
>> people either.
>>
>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>
> Ireland can't be a member of both Schengen and the CTA; it's one or the
> other (or neither, of course).

Yes, if we (Eire) join the Schengen Area, it would mean the end of the
current CTA. So would the UK maintain free movement with a CTA2 so that
we don't need passport checks to travel to the UK? Or would they
implement their own border checks somewhere?

Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
> On 17/06/2023 21:39, Recliner wrote:
>> Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>>> On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year. They blame the
>>>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>>>
>>>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>>>> else. I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>>>> get away with it.
>>>>
>>>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if there
>>>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to be a
>>>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>>>
>>> So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
>>> join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
>>> need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
>>> destinations any more.
>>>
>>> I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
>>> Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
>>> nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.
>>>
>>> And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
>>> people either.
>>>
>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>
>> Ireland can't be a member of both Schengen and the CTA; it's one or the
>> other (or neither, of course).
>
> Yes, if we (Eire)

I've not known actual Irish citizens refer to the Republic as 'Eire', which
is a misspelling. Éire is Irish for Ireland. Eire is incorrect in both
languages.

> join the Schengen Area, it would mean the end of the
> current CTA. So would the UK maintain free movement with a CTA2 so that
> we don't need passport checks to travel to the UK? Or would they
> implement their own border checks somewhere?

No, EI can't join Schengen because of the GFA. It has to remain in the CTA
as long as NI remains in the UK.

In any case, EI benefits from being in both the EU and the CTA. Joining
Schengen would offer no advantage.

On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
> On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year.  They blame the
>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>
>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>
>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>> else.  I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>> get away with it.
>>
>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if
>> there
>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to
>> be a
>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>
> So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
> join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
> need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
> destinations any more.
>
> I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
> Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
> nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.

Implimenting a hard border between poblacht na hÉireann and tuaisceart
Éireann would violate the Good Friday Agreement.

> And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
> people either.
>
> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?

Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
imposed under exceptional circumstances).

Robin

On 17/06/2023 19:03, Alan Jones wrote:
> On 13/06/2023 09:26, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2023 17:30:35 +0100
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 12/06/2023 14:25, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> I do meet some people from Belfast a few times a year.  They blame the
>>>>> Westminster government not the normal people like me.
>>>>
>>>> Surely they should blame the DUP for forcing Westminster to, very
>>> reluctantly, keep governing the province?
>>>
>>> They're more upset upset about the border in the Irish Sea than anything
>>> else.  I don't understand how Johnson and his cronies thought they could
>>> get away with it.
>>
>> The Irish government spreading lies about a hard border in Ireland if
>> there
>> was a no deal Brexit didn't help things much. There was never going to
>> be a
>> hard border because of the Common Travel Area.
>
> So what happens when the Irish Republic has a referendum and decides to
> join the Schengen Area, like most of our EU counterparts? Then we won't
> need those wasteful and insulting passport checks to travel to EU
> destinations any more.
>
> I don't think Eire will ever implement a hard border with Northern
> Ireland for people, as we value our freedom to travel to NI and GB
> nearly as much as we value our rights across the whole of the EU.
>
> And I don't think that NI would implement a hard border with Eire for
> people either.
>
> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?

I'm pretty sure that if put to a vote there were would be a substantial
majority in England for a very simple (to England) and cheap (to English
taxpayers) solution to all the problems relating to Northern Ireland...

--
Arthur Figgis

On 18/06/2023 10:43, Bob wrote:

> Schengen removes routine
> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
> imposed under exceptional circumstances).

"Entering Germany with a bit of a sun tan" being one I've heard about,
and even seen...

--
Arthur Figgis

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:03:06 +0100
Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?

It was pretty clear the UK government had no intention of implementing a hard
border in ireland and was quite happy to give the irish government and EU
the rope to hang themselves with if they went ahead with it unilaterally. It
would have been an own goal of own goals for both dublin and brussels if
they'd done it.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>
>Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>imposed under exceptional circumstances).

Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
the schengen states reintroducing border controls.

According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:03:06 +0100
>Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>>So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>
>It was pretty clear the UK government had no intention of implementing a hard
>border in ireland and was quite happy to give the irish government and EU
>the rope to hang themselves with if they went ahead with it unilaterally. It
>would have been an own goal of own goals for both dublin and brussels if
>they'd done it.

If the UK insisted on a hard Brexit and stopped implementing EU
standards for food and other goods in NI, they wouldn't leave the EU
much choice. While I can easily imagine the Brexiters doing something
that self destructively stupid, it seems a long way to go for the
right to eat chlorinated chicken.

Except they probably couldn't; the US government has always been a
supporter of the GFA and the current president is of Irish descent and
feels very strongly about it. So yes, it would be an own goal, but not
by the EU.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On 18.06.23 23:54, John Levine wrote:
> According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:03:06 +0100
>> Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>
>> It was pretty clear the UK government had no intention of implementing a hard
>> border in ireland and was quite happy to give the irish government and EU
>> the rope to hang themselves with if they went ahead with it unilaterally. It
>> would have been an own goal of own goals for both dublin and brussels if
>> they'd done it.
>
> If the UK insisted on a hard Brexit and stopped implementing EU
> standards for food and other goods in NI, they wouldn't leave the EU
> much choice.

Not sure where the "if" comes in, that is exactly what has happened.
See, for example,
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp69z614ngyo

Robin

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>
>> Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>> the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>> of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>> to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>> imposed under exceptional circumstances).
>
> Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
> apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
> the schengen states reintroducing border controls.

I think COVID counted as exceptional circumstances and reintroducing border
checks if necessary is built into the agreement. It sounds like the system
doing what it was designed to do.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:28:03 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>>
>>> Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>>> the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>>> of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>>> to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>>> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>>> imposed under exceptional circumstances).
>>
>> Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
>> apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
>> the schengen states reintroducing border controls.
>
>I think COVID counted as exceptional circumstances and reintroducing border
>checks if necessary is built into the agreement. It sounds like the system
>doing what it was designed to do.

Yes, indeed. It made good sense to limit movement during the early stages on Covid, while it was still spreading and
population immunity was very low.

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:54:19 -0000 (UTC)
John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>According to <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com>:
>>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:03:06 +0100
>>Alan Jones <ajnews@exospan.com> wrote:
>>>So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>>Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>
>>It was pretty clear the UK government had no intention of implementing a hard
>>border in ireland and was quite happy to give the irish government and EU
>>the rope to hang themselves with if they went ahead with it unilaterally. It
>>would have been an own goal of own goals for both dublin and brussels if
>>they'd done it.
>
>If the UK insisted on a hard Brexit and stopped implementing EU
>standards for food and other goods in NI, they wouldn't leave the EU
>much choice. While I can easily imagine the Brexiters doing something

There are always political choices. The EUs rules are just words on paper, not
a law of physics.

>that self destructively stupid, it seems a long way to go for the
>right to eat chlorinated chicken.

Have a guess what all your salad vegetables are washed in.

>Except they probably couldn't; the US government has always been a
>supporter of the GFA and the current president is of Irish descent and

Like most yanks he's of mixed decent and in his case a lot of it is english.
But its politically expedient over there to court the irish vote (god knows
why) so he lays it on thick with the twiddly diddly dee rubbish. I doubt he
could find Dublin on a map without help frankly.

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:28:03 -0000 (UTC)
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>> On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>>
>>> Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>>> the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>>> of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>>> to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>>> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>>> imposed under exceptional circumstances).
>>
>> Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
>> apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
>> the schengen states reintroducing border controls.
>
>I think COVID counted as exceptional circumstances and reintroducing border
>checks if necessary is built into the agreement. It sounds like the system
>doing what it was designed to do.

Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars on
major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
walking down paths?

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 13:46:33 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:28:03 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>>>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>>>
>>>> Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>>>> the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>>>> of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>>>> to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>>>> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>>>> imposed under exceptional circumstances).
>>>
>>> Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
>>> apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
>>> the schengen states reintroducing border controls.
>>
>>I think COVID counted as exceptional circumstances and reintroducing border
>>checks if necessary is built into the agreement. It sounds like the system
>>doing what it was designed to do.
>
>Yes, indeed. It made good sense to limit movement during the early stages on
>Covid, while it was still spreading and
>population immunity was very low.

Yeah, thats why they stopped all the flights from China and Italy so quickly.
Oh, wait....

On 19/06/2023 16:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 12:28:03 -0000 (UTC)
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 11:43:41 +0200
>>> Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>> On 17.06.23 20:03, Alan Jones wrote:
>>>>> So that's all right then, freedom of movement without petty bureaucracy.
>>>>> Unless the English tried to threaten or bully us?
>>>>
>>>> Freedom of Movement is a bit of a misused term. In EU terms it refers to
>>>> the free movement of goods, captial and labour. That is, it's the right
>>>> of EU citizens to live and work in another EU country. It is not a right
>>>> to cross borders without any kind of controls. Schengen removes routine
>>>> formalities for crossing borders within the zone (but they can be
>>>> imposed under exceptional circumstances).
>>>
>>> Can't it just. The whole EU holding hands singing kumbaya all rather fell
>>> apart during covid when it became every country for itself with a number of
>>> the schengen states reintroducing border controls.
>>
>> I think COVID counted as exceptional circumstances and reintroducing border
>> checks if necessary is built into the agreement. It sounds like the system
>> doing what it was designed to do.
>
> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars on
> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
> walking down paths?

There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
intra-German border style measures.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbours-about-re-opening-borders/45756568

--
Arthur Figgis

On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:51:36 +0100
Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>On 19/06/2023 16:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars
>on
>> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
>> walking down paths?
>
>There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
>though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
>intra-German border style measures.
>
>https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbo
>urs-about-re-opening-borders/45756568

Wow, a couple of bits of plastic tape, that'll stop em! :)

Clearly just gesture politics in action.

On 20/06/2023 16:36, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:51:36 +0100
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/06/2023 16:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars
>> on
>>> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
>>> walking down paths?
>>
>> There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
>> though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
>> intra-German border style measures.
>>
>> https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbo
>> urs-about-re-opening-borders/45756568
>
> Wow, a couple of bits of plastic tape, that'll stop em! :)
>
> Clearly just gesture politics in action.

You've clearly never seen a German faced with a red Ampelmann.

--
Arthur Figgis

On 20 Jun 2023 at 8:42:25 PM EEST, "Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.invalid>
wrote:

> On 20/06/2023 16:36, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:51:36 +0100
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 19/06/2023 16:16, <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars
>>> on
>>>> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
>>>> walking down paths?
>>>
>>> There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
>>> though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
>>> intra-German border style measures.
>>>
>>> <https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbo>
>>> urs-about-re-opening-borders/45756568
>>
>> Wow, a couple of bits of plastic tape, that'll stop em! :)
>>
>> Clearly just gesture politics in action.
>
> You've clearly never seen a German faced with a red Ampelmann.

Indeed. In general, the vast majority of people in Germany and elsewhere are
law-abiding, and a sign saying "you're not allowed" with some tape is all that
is required to stop them. In a situation like pandemic control, stopping the
vast majority is what you're aiming for, and the minority of inveterate
knobheads who think they only need to play by the rules of civilised society
when they're enforced at gunpoint are not really terribly important.

On Tue, 20 Jun 2023 18:42:25 +0100
Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>On 20/06/2023 16:36, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:51:36 +0100
>> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 19/06/2023 16:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping
>cars
>>> on
>>>> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
>>>> walking down paths?
>>>
>>> There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
>>> though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
>>> intra-German border style measures.
>>>
>>>
>https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbo
>
>>> urs-about-re-opening-borders/45756568
>>
>> Wow, a couple of bits of plastic tape, that'll stop em! :)
>>
>> Clearly just gesture politics in action.
>
>You've clearly never seen a German faced with a red Ampelmann.

First time I visited germany with some mates we just crossed the road as and
when much to the shock of a friends german friend who was showing us around.

I still see no point in waiting like a lemon if the road is clear in both
directions for half a mile.

On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:12:59 -0000 (UTC)
Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>On 20 Jun 2023 at 8:42:25 PM EEST, "Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.invalid>
>wrote:
>> You've clearly never seen a German faced with a red Ampelmann.
>
>Indeed. In general, the vast majority of people in Germany and elsewhere are
>law-abiding, and a sign saying "you're not allowed" with some tape is all that
>is required to stop them. In a situation like pandemic control, stopping the
>vast majority is what you're aiming for, and the minority of inveterate
>knobheads who think they only need to play by the rules of civilised society
>when they're enforced at gunpoint are not really terribly important.

Ignoring stupid laws doesn't make you a knobhead, it makes you a thinking
human not a dumb sheep. Standing like a gormless halfwit at a crossing when
there are no other vehicles in sight is cretinous.

Am 21.06.2023 um 17:32 schrieb Muttley@dastardlyhq.com:
> On Wed, 21 Jun 2023 10:12:59 -0000 (UTC)
> Clank <clank75@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Jun 2023 at 8:42:25 PM EEST, "Arthur Figgis" <afiggis@example.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>> You've clearly never seen a German faced with a red Ampelmann.
>>
>> Indeed. In general, the vast majority of people in Germany and elsewhere are
>> law-abiding, and a sign saying "you're not allowed" with some tape is all that
>> is required to stop them. In a situation like pandemic control, stopping the
>> vast majority is what you're aiming for, and the minority of inveterate
>> knobheads who think they only need to play by the rules of civilised society
>> when they're enforced at gunpoint are not really terribly important.
>
> Ignoring stupid laws doesn't make you a knobhead, it makes you a thinking
> human not a dumb sheep. Standing like a gormless halfwit at a crossing when
> there are no other vehicles in sight is cretinous.

Yet my son has to join a reeducation camp or lose his driver's licence
for crossing a pedestrian/cycle crossing with his bicycle at 'red'.

On 21/06/2023 11:12, Clank wrote:

> the minority of inveterate
> knobheads who think they only need to play by the rules of civilised society
> when they're enforced at gunpoint are not really terribly important.

Unless they are actually quite important...

--
Arthur Figgis

On 20.06.23 17:36, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Jun 2023 17:51:36 +0100
> Arthur Figgis <afiggis@example.invalid> wrote:
>> On 19/06/2023 16:16, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> Given AFAIK there's no fence along any of the borders what did stopping cars
>> on
>>> major roads achieve other than forcing people down the side roads or even
>>> walking down paths?
>>
>> There were plenty pictures of minor border crossings being closed,
>> though I don't think anyone was seriously proposing cold war
>> intra-German border style measures.
>>
>> https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/free-movement_swiss-in-talks-with-neighbo
>> urs-about-re-opening-borders/45756568
>
> Wow, a couple of bits of plastic tape, that'll stop em! :)
>
> Clearly just gesture politics in action.

Those are only the obvious indicators that it is supposed to be closed.
The crossings are generally monitored by CCTV, so any person attempting
to cross would be promptly intercepted by authorities and find
themselves in a world of legal trouble.

Robin