Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
the factory
and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.

Ahh found a link that looks copyable.

<https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>

GH

On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>
>Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>the factory
>and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>
>Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>
><https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>

I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation bogies used to transport them? The wheels look
too large for service bogies.

We've frequently discussed this form of articulation here, and why it's been used. It's quite common with articulated
low-floor trams, but I think it's the first time it's been used with heavy rail.

On 20.07.23 14:36, Recliner wrote:
> On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>> the factory
>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>
>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>
>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>
> I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation bogies used to transport them? The wheels look
> too large for service bogies.
>
> We've frequently discussed this form of articulation here, and why it's been used. It's quite common with articulated
> low-floor trams, but I think it's the first time it's been used with heavy rail.

I saw some pictures on twitter and wondered the same thing about the
bogies. The whole carriage bodies seem to be riding very high. Could be
something related to the loading gauge for the delivery route.

The design of hanging one end of a carriage off its neighbour with the
bogie mounted on the neighbouring carriage conventionally is a feature
of the Stadler GTW design, but that's only at one end of the segment,
not both. There may be some heavy rail designs out there with this
arrangement, but I can't bring any to mind directly.

Robin

On Thu, 20 Jul 2023 14:46:03 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:

>On 20.07.23 14:36, Recliner wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>>> the factory
>>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>>
>>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>>
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>
>> I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation bogies used to transport them? The wheels look
>> too large for service bogies.
>>
>> We've frequently discussed this form of articulation here, and why it's been used. It's quite common with articulated
>> low-floor trams, but I think it's the first time it's been used with heavy rail.
>
>I saw some pictures on twitter and wondered the same thing about the
>bogies. The whole carriage bodies seem to be riding very high. Could be
>something related to the loading gauge for the delivery route.

Yes, that's what I suspect.

>
>The design of hanging one end of a carriage off its neighbour with the
>bogie mounted on the neighbouring carriage conventionally is a feature
>of the Stadler GTW design, but that's only at one end of the segment,
>not both. There may be some heavy rail designs out there with this
>arrangement, but I can't bring any to mind directly.

No, none of us could think of any heavy rail flying sections the last time this was discussed here. It seems to be an
ingenious way of having a low floor articulated train with decent sized wheels

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>> the factory
>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>
>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>
>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>
> I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation
> bogies used to transport them? The wheels look
> too large for service bogies.
>

I wondered that but then thought they look to well equipped to be
accommodation bogies,
is it a protected for transit third rail pick up bracket on the ones at
the ends?
The inside frame lets us see more of the wheel than usual so may be why
they apparently look larger.

GH

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> >Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
> >the factory
> >and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
> >The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
> >that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
> >bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
> >wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
> >
> >Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
> >
> ><https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>
> I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation
> bogies used to transport them? The wheels look too large for service
> bogies.

Supposedly the lack of bogies under the hanging vehicles is to allow space
for air conditioning equipment, but I would have expected the space to be
occupied by said equipment down to near the rail, not such a large amount of
empty space. It can't all just be space to allow some fans to vent
downwards?

I wonder if they are raised so they can couple to conventional rail
vehicles, if the normal coupling height would be too low? Also larger
wheels might allow a higher top speed for dragging, which would be important
if it has a long way to travel.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 20 Jul 2023 12:03:09 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>>> the factory
>>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>>
>>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>>
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>
>> I wonder if those are the actual service bogies, or just accommodation
>> bogies used to transport them? The wheels look too large for service
>> bogies.
>
> Supposedly the lack of bogies under the hanging vehicles is to allow space
> for air conditioning equipment, but I would have expected the space to be
> occupied by said equipment down to near the rail, not such a large amount of
> empty space. It can't all just be space to allow some fans to vent
> downwards?
>
> I wonder if they are raised so they can couple to conventional rail
> vehicles, if the normal coupling height would be too low? Also larger
> wheels might allow a higher top speed for dragging, which would be important
> if it has a long way to travel.
>

Yes, plus probably to clear trackside equipment in UIC Land.

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
> the factory
> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>
> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>
> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>
>

I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 21.07.23 08:03, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>> the factory
>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>
>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>
>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>
>>
>
> I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
> loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
> through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
> can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.

Back in the mid '90s there was the concept of the "space train" (IIRC
intended to be a replacement for the Vicotria line before PPP came
along), which was based on the idea of using small wheels that wouldn't
need to intrude above the floor level. The 08 tube stock we got in the
end was much more conventional, though.

Robin

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 21.07.23 08:03, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>>> the factory
>>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>>
>>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>>
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
>> loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
>> through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
>> can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.
>
> Back in the mid '90s there was the concept of the "space train" (IIRC
> intended to be a replacement for the Vicotria line before PPP came
> along), which was based on the idea of using small wheels that wouldn't
> need to intrude above the floor level. The 08 tube stock we got in the
> end was much more conventional, though.
>

Small wheels, articulated, much more 'round' body profile to use all the
width of the tunnel profile [1], low floor to allow that space to be used,
solid rail OLE current collector.

There's a model of the proposal in the LT Museum Depot at Acton, in the
'random artefacts' section, underneath the Mezzanine of Roundels.

<https://twitter.com/ianvisits/status/911552000189399040>
<https://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/collections/collections-online/models/item/2000-10221>

[1] apparently forgetting all the infrastructure which is in those spaces -
cable runs, signals etc.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
> On 21.07.23 08:03, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>>> the factory
>>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>>
>>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>>
>>> <https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_48071_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
>> loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
>> through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
>> can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.
>
> Back in the mid '90s there was the concept of the "space train" (IIRC
> intended to be a replacement for the Vicotria line before PPP came
> along), which was based on the idea of using small wheels that wouldn't
> need to intrude above the floor level. The 08 tube stock we got in the
> end was much more conventional, though.

The 2024 stock is the real world version of the proposed 'space train'. It
didn't happen with the 2009 stock because the PPE contract with Metronet
got in the way. Instead, Metronet just ordered a very conventional
Tube-sized version of the Movia S stock being built by one of its members,
Bombardier. Unfortunately, it didn't use the S stock's rather comfortable
seats, and open gangways weren't feasible without articulation.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 06:03:30 -0000 (UTC)
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>> the factory
>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>
>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>
>>
><https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_480
>71_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>
>>
>
>I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
>loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
>through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
>can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.

I wonder how much of a good idea those floating cars will turn out to be?

- They won't help in any way going through tight tunnels as that'll be limited
by the longer cars
- They increase the axle load
- There'll be increased stress on the couplings since they have to carry the
weight of the car as well as longitudinal forces.

Can't see the point unless reducing bogie count was really that important but
then why not use a conventional articulated train?

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 09:25:00 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>> Back in the mid '90s there was the concept of the "space train" (IIRC
>> intended to be a replacement for the Vicotria line before PPP came
>> along), which was based on the idea of using small wheels that wouldn't
>> need to intrude above the floor level. The 08 tube stock we got in the
>> end was much more conventional, though.
>
>The 2024 stock is the real world version of the proposed 'space train'. It
>didn't happen with the 2009 stock because the PPE contract with Metronet
>got in the way. Instead, Metronet just ordered a very conventional
>Tube-sized version of the Movia S stock being built by one of its members,
>Bombardier. Unfortunately, it didn't use the S stock's rather comfortable
>seats, and open gangways weren't feasible without articulation.

I like the 2009 stock but yes, the seats are pretty crap.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:28:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 06:03:30 -0000 (UTC)
>Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone come across a decent photo of this stock now the first unit has left
>>> the factory
>>> and been hauled on main line tracks on the Continent ?
>>> The couple I have seen have been small ones on social media posts and not
>>> that detailed but it does look strange at first glance with a car with two
>>> bogies each side of a body section ( can it be a car if it hasn’t got
>>> wheels ? They have been given numbers) that is supported by them.
>>>
>>> Ahh found a link that looks copyable.
>>>
>>>
>><https://www.reddit.com/r/LondonUnderground/comments/154337d/the_first_unit_480
>>71_of_the_new_2024_tube_stock/>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I think it’s riding high on its bogies for transit, perhaps to reduce
>>loading gauge problems at low level. Usually tube stock wheels protrude
>>through the floor under the longitudinal seats, but in these pictures you
>>can see the tops of the wheels below the solebar.
>
>I wonder how much of a good idea those floating cars will turn out to be?

They're widely used on light rail. All that's novel here is their use on a heavy rail vehicle.

>
>- They won't help in any way going through tight tunnels as that'll be limited
> by the longer cars

It's the distance between bogie centres on a car that matters. That should be lower with this arrangement.

>- They increase the axle load

No more than conventional articulated trains. But, overall, the train will be lighter, and has more underfloor room for
the aircon.

>- There'll be increased stress on the couplings since they have to carry the
> weight of the car as well as longitudinal forces.
>
>Can't see the point unless reducing bogie count was really that important but
>then why not use a conventional articulated train?

As we've told you before, that would raise the floor.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:28:45 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:28:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>I wonder how much of a good idea those floating cars will turn out to be?
>
>They're widely used on light rail. All that's novel here is their use on a
>heavy rail vehicle.

For light rail read tram. Tube trains are somewhat heavier.

>>- They won't help in any way going through tight tunnels as that'll be limited
>
>> by the longer cars
>
>It's the distance between bogie centres on a car that matters. That should be
>lower with this arrangement.

Not by much looking at that picture.

>
>>- They increase the axle load
>
>No more than conventional articulated trains. But, overall, the train will be
>lighter, and has more underfloor room for
>the aircon.

And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go? They
haven't dug any new extraction shafts AFAIK and they can't even keep the
stations cool now. With train aircon the platforms will fry.

It would have been far better to aircon the stations, not the trains on deep
level tubes.

>>Can't see the point unless reducing bogie count was really that important but
>>then why not use a conventional articulated train?
>
>As we've told you before, that would raise the floor.

Presumably you've never heard of a Jacobs bogie.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:28:45 +0100
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 12:28:49 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> I wonder how much of a good idea those floating cars will turn out to be?
>>
>> They're widely used on light rail. All that's novel here is their use on a
>> heavy rail vehicle.
>
> For light rail read tram. Tube trains are somewhat heavier.
>
>>> - They won't help in any way going through tight tunnels as that'll be limited
>>
>>> by the longer cars
>>
>> It's the distance between bogie centres on a car that matters. That should be
>> lower with this arrangement.
>
> Not by much looking at that picture.
>
>>
>>> - They increase the axle load
>>
>> No more than conventional articulated trains. But, overall, the train will be
>> lighter, and has more underfloor room for
>> the aircon.
>
> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go?

There with; l be less heat to disperse.

> They haven't dug any new extraction shafts AFAIK and they can't even keep the
> stations cool now. With train aircon the platforms will fry.
>
> It would have been far better to aircon the stations, not the trains on deep
> level tubes.

It's been discussed here many times — have you really forgotten?

>
>>> Can't see the point unless reducing bogie count was really that important but
>>> then why not use a conventional articulated train?
>>
>> As we've told you before, that would raise the floor.
>
> Presumably you've never heard of a Jacobs bogie.

Of course I have. And that's what would raise the floor. You seem to have
forgotten the multiple discussions here on that subject.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:37:01 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go?
>
>There with; l be less heat to disperse.

?

>> It would have been far better to aircon the stations, not the trains on deep
>
>> level tubes.
>
>It's been discussed here many times — have you really forgotten?

Unlike you I don't live on here and remember everything ever posted because
you have nothing better to do with your time.

>> Presumably you've never heard of a Jacobs bogie.
>
>Of course I have. And that's what would raise the floor. You seem to have
>forgotten the multiple discussions here on that subject.

One of the main sellings points of a jacobs bogie is that they DON'T require
raising of the frame.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:37:01 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go?
>>
>> There with; l be less heat to disperse.
>
> ?

Sorry: auto correct typo. Should be 'there will be less heat to disperse'.
[As you well know]

>
>>> It would have been far better to aircon the stations, not the trains on deep
>>
>>> level tubes.
>>
>> It's been discussed here many times — have you really forgotten?
>
> Unlike you I don't live on here and remember everything ever posted because
> you have nothing better to do with your time.

You were part of those discussions. So it's yet another confirmation of
your failing memory.

>
>>> Presumably you've never heard of a Jacobs bogie.
>>
>> Of course I have. And that's what would raise the floor. You seem to have
>> forgotten the multiple discussions here on that subject.
>
> One of the main sellings points of a jacobs bogie is that they DON'T require
> raising of the frame.

Go back and read the several threads on this topic.

You can't have a low floor over a Jacobs bogie. You can over a conventional
bogie, as Tube trains have long done.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:28:45 +0100

>
> Not by much looking at that picture.
>
>>
I was having another gander at the photo just now and something about the
roof line looked familiar.
Then I got it , Its reminiscent of the small clerestory of the 1920’s
-30’s standard tube stock..
From the 1935 stock onwards tube roofs have generally been uncluttered
with only the 1992 and 2009 stock differing due to the externally hung
doors, the 2024 stock design obviously has to accommodate externally hung
doors as well but the top most roof section seems far more prominent
than the aforementioned examples.

GH

Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:28:45 +0100
>
>>
>> Not by much looking at that picture.
>>
>>>
> I was having another gander at the photo just now and something about the
> roof line looked familiar.
> Then I got it , Its reminiscent of the small clerestory of the 1920’s
> -30’s standard tube stock..
> From the 1935 stock onwards tube roofs have generally been uncluttered
> with only the 1992 and 2009 stock differing due to the externally hung
> doors, the 2024 stock design obviously has to accommodate externally hung
> doors as well but the top most roof section seems far more prominent
> than the aforementioned examples.

Yes, I had exactly the same thought. I assumed it was something to do with
the air conditioning.

On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 16:29:12 -0000 (UTC)
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:37:01 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go?
>>>
>>> There with; l be less heat to disperse.
>>
>> ?
>
>Sorry: auto correct typo. Should be 'there will be less heat to disperse'.
> [As you well know]

Thats what they said when the 2009 turned up. Regen braking - less heat etc.
Hasn't turned out that way because of the more frequent service which is also
what they're planning for the pic. Add heat from aircon on to that which will
be substantial and you have slowly boiling pax on station platforms.

>> Unlike you I don't live on here and remember everything ever posted because
>> you have nothing better to do with your time.
>
>You were part of those discussions. So it's yet another confirmation of

So what? Do you remember what you discussed couple of years ago?

>your failing memory.

No, just a normal memory. People forget trivia and also important facts too. If
that wasn't the case exam revision wouldn't be a thing. And don't pretend you
remember what was discussed either as I'm sure you've been frantically
re-reading all the posts. I have better things to do.

>> One of the main sellings points of a jacobs bogie is that they DON'T require
>
>> raising of the frame.
>
>Go back and read the several threads on this topic.
>
>You can't have a low floor over a Jacobs bogie. You can over a conventional
>bogie, as Tube trains have long done.

Tube trains floors arn't low in the tram sense, they're just lower than
mainline stock.

On 21 Jul 2023 16:31:24 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 14:28:45 +0100
>
>>
>> Not by much looking at that picture.
>>
>>>
>I was having another gander at the photo just now and something about the
>roof line looked familiar.
>Then I got it , Its reminiscent of the small clerestory of the 1920’s
>-30’s standard tube stock..
>From the 1935 stock onwards tube roofs have generally been uncluttered
>with only the 1992 and 2009 stock differing due to the externally hung
>doors, the 2024 stock design obviously has to accommodate externally hung

Why have externally hung doors become a thing on the tube in the last 30
years or so? Ease of maintenance? They certainly don't help with aerodynamics in
the tunnels.

On 22/07/2023 09:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 16:29:12 -0000 (UTC)
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:37:01 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to go?
>>>>
>>>> There with; l be less heat to disperse.
>>>
>>> ?
>>
>> Sorry: auto correct typo. Should be 'there will be less heat to disperse'.
>> [As you well know]
>
> Thats what they said when the 2009 turned up. Regen braking - less heat etc.
> Hasn't turned out that way because of the more frequent service which is also
> what they're planning for the pic. Add heat from aircon on to that which will
> be substantial and you have slowly boiling pax on station platforms.
>
>>> Unlike you I don't live on here and remember everything ever posted because
>>> you have nothing better to do with your time.
>>
>> You were part of those discussions. So it's yet another confirmation of
>
> So what? Do you remember what you discussed couple of years ago?
>
>> your failing memory.
>
> No, just a normal memory. People forget trivia and also important facts too. If
> that wasn't the case exam revision wouldn't be a thing. And don't pretend you
> remember what was discussed either as I'm sure you've been frantically
> re-reading all the posts. I have better things to do.
>
>>> One of the main sellings points of a jacobs bogie is that they DON'T require
>>
>>> raising of the frame.
>>
>> Go back and read the several threads on this topic.
>>
>> You can't have a low floor over a Jacobs bogie. You can over a conventional
>> bogie, as Tube trains have long done.
>
> Tube trains floors arn't low in the tram sense, they're just lower than
> mainline stock.
>
>
The aircon is only moving the heat from one part of the underground (in
the trains) to another (the stations). It's not actually generating any
new heat.

On 22.07.23 11:10, Coffee wrote:
> On 22/07/2023 09:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 16:29:12 -0000 (UTC)
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 21 Jul 2023 15:37:01 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> And whats the point of aircon when there's nowhere for the heat to
>>>>>> go?
>>>>>
>>>>> There with; l be less heat to disperse.
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>
>>> Sorry: auto correct typo.  Should be 'there will be less heat to
>>> disperse'.
>>> [As you well know]
>>
>> Thats what they said when the 2009 turned up. Regen braking - less
>> heat etc.
>> Hasn't turned out that way because of the more frequent service which
>> is also
>> what they're planning for the pic. Add heat from aircon on to that
>> which will
>> be substantial and you have slowly boiling pax on station platforms.
>>
>>>> Unlike you I don't live on here and remember everything ever posted
>>>> because
>>>> you have nothing better to do with your time.
>>>
>>> You were part of those discussions. So it's yet another confirmation of
>>
>> So what? Do you remember what you discussed couple of years ago?
>>
>>> your failing memory.
>>
>> No, just a normal memory. People forget trivia and also important
>> facts too. If
>> that wasn't the case exam revision wouldn't be a thing. And don't
>> pretend you
>> remember what was discussed either as I'm sure you've been frantically
>> re-reading all the posts. I have better things to do.
>>
>>>> One of the main sellings points of a jacobs bogie is that they DON'T
>>>> require
>>>
>>>> raising of the frame.
>>>
>>> Go back and read the several threads on this topic.
>>>
>>> You can't have a low floor over a Jacobs bogie. You can over a
>>> conventional
>>> bogie, as Tube trains have long done.
>>
>> Tube trains floors arn't low in the tram sense, they're just lower than
>> mainline stock.
>>
>>
> The aircon is only moving the heat from one part of the underground (in
> the trains) to another (the stations).  It's not actually generating any
> new heat.

The laws of thermodynamics would like a word. Air conditioning requires
energy input, therefore the ammount of heat rejected is greater than the
ammount of heat extracted.

Robin

On Sat, 22 Jul 2023 10:10:09 +0100
Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>On 22/07/2023 09:58, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> Tube trains floors arn't low in the tram sense, they're just lower than
>> mainline stock.
>>
>>
>The aircon is only moving the heat from one part of the underground (in
>the trains) to another (the stations). It's not actually generating any
>new heat.

Wrong. The compressor and other electrical equipment generate quite a lot of
their own heat as well as that which they remove.