On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:59:47 +0100
Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:36:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 21:52:36 -0000 (UTC)
>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> So a Talgo is not articulated? A Talgo carriage is more like a trailer
>>>> where one end is supported on wheels and the other is hooked to the end of
>>>> the next carriage.
>>>
>>>I expect Neil to go quiet on this. He recently was proud to learn about
>>>Jacob's bogies, and wrongly thought that articulation required their use.
>>>Enough people and sources (including the one he cited himself!) have proved
>>>him wrong that he'll eventually realise that it's time to shut up. Of
>>>course, he'd never admit that he was wrong, so will change the subject.
>>
>>Straw manning to the max as usual or has nursery forgotten to give you your
>>daily sanatogen again? I suggested jacobs bogies for tube trains for the
>lower
>>floors , it had nothing to do with articulation at the time.
>
>Congratulations, Neil — now you've really excelled yourself. Keep it up!

Your standard response when you don't actually have one.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 12:31:17 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:38:25 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 14:40:33 +0100
>>Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:26:43 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 16:19:06 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 12:52:44 +0100
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>
>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cue for Neil to tell us that they're not really articulated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got it in one.
>>>>>
>>>>>So please can you tell us your unambiguous definition of “articulated�?
>-
>>>>>different definitions as applied to road and rail vehicles if necessary.
>>>>>Thank you.
>>>>
>>>>Where a vehicle has a shared bogie/axles with the one next to it.
>>>
>>>So an artic isn't articulated, by your definition?
>>
>>ITYF the end of the semi trailer sits over the tractor wheels.
>
>In other words, it's suspended from the rear of the section ahead. The
>trailer doesn't connect directly to the wheelset.

Define direct. Does the end of a carraige connect directly to the wheelset on
the bogie?

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>
>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s there was
>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>
>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv tractor
>unit
>>>
>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>
>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any argument
>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>
>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a bus then?
>
>Is it registered as a PSV?

So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been filled in?

>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>
>
>Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.

Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
registered with the DVLA?

https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>
>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s there was
>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>
>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv tractor unit
>>
>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>
>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any argument
>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>
> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a bus then?

A tractor is basically a towing device which until Harry Ferguson put
hydraulics on them was just a horse substitute, and there were many
examples of horse drawn buses. The tractor at the fair is just reprising
its role as a horse usurper .
Or are you saying the Island of Sark. shouldn’t be using the term Bus for
their only public transport.
<https://www.sark.co.uk/getting-around>

GH

On 27 Jul 2023 15:44:13 GMT
Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>Or are you saying the Island of Sark. shouldn’t be using the term Bus for
>their only public transport.
><https://www.sark.co.uk/getting-around>

I wouldn't. But then it depends if you define a bus as a type of vehicle or
a vehicle providing a type of service.

On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s there was
>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>
>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv tractor
>> unit
>>>>
>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>
>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any argument
>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>>
>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a bus then?
>>
>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>
> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been filled in?

Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>
>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>
>>
>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>
> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
> registered with the DVLA?
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>

Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 27.07.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 12:31:17 +0100
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:38:25 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 14:40:33 +0100
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:26:43 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 16:19:06 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 12:52:44 +0100
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>>
>>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cue for Neil to tell us that they're not really articulated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Got it in one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So please can you tell us your unambiguous definition of тАЬarticulatedтА?
>> -
>>>>>> different definitions as applied to road and rail vehicles if necessary.
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where a vehicle has a shared bogie/axles with the one next to it.
>>>>
>>>> So an artic isn't articulated, by your definition?
>>>
>>> ITYF the end of the semi trailer sits over the tractor wheels.
>>
>> In other words, it's suspended from the rear of the section ahead. The
>> trailer doesn't connect directly to the wheelset.
>
> Define direct. Does the end of a carraige connect directly to the wheelset on
> the bogie?

Between the actual wheelset and the body of the load being carried,
there is an articulation. Hence the name.

Robin

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 15:21:36 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 11:59:47 +0100
>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:36:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 21:52:36 -0000 (UTC)
>>>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> So a Talgo is not articulated? A Talgo carriage is more like a trailer
>>>>> where one end is supported on wheels and the other is hooked to the end of
>>>>> the next carriage.
>>>>
>>>>I expect Neil to go quiet on this. He recently was proud to learn about
>>>>Jacob's bogies, and wrongly thought that articulation required their use.
>>>>Enough people and sources (including the one he cited himself!) have proved
>>>>him wrong that he'll eventually realise that it's time to shut up. Of
>>>>course, he'd never admit that he was wrong, so will change the subject.
>>>
>>>Straw manning to the max as usual or has nursery forgotten to give you your
>>>daily sanatogen again? I suggested jacobs bogies for tube trains for the
>>lower
>>>floors , it had nothing to do with articulation at the time.
>>
>>Congratulations, Neil — now you've really excelled yourself. Keep it up!
>
>Your standard response when you don't actually have one.

Neil, you do yourself a disservice. It's very rare for me to offer such fulsome tributes to your engineering ignorance.
So this was a special congratulations, and certainly not a standard response.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 10:37:37 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section from the
>>>>>rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus with any
>>>>>other arrangement.
>>>>>
>>>>In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s there was
>>>>no passenger section ahead.
>>>>https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>
>>>Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv tractor unit
>>
>>>pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>
>>A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any argument
>>about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>
>So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a bus then?
>
If it is available to all and not operating as a taxi or PHV then yes.

>>Smaller buses can be based on the chassises of large vans (or in past
>>times on a lorry chassis). Does that mean they aren't buses?
>
>Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>
Is it operating as a stage carriage?

Am 27.07.2023 um 18:39 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section
>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus
>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s
>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv
>>>>>> tractor
>>> unit
>>>>>
>>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>>
>>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any argument
>>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>>>
>>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a bus
>>>> then?
>>>
>>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>>
>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been
>> filled in?
>
> Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>>
>>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>>
>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
>> registered with the DVLA?
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>
> Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
> double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.

I would doubt the first half of the sentence and propose the expression:
"any vehicle that is or was last registered as a bus is a bus".

On the lower end, vehicles with less than 8 seats are not busses becuase
you're allowed to drive them with a normal car licence.
But: Vehicles with 3 rows of seats and a sliding rear door are sometimes
called 'Mini-bus'.

Rolf

On 28/07/2023 09:37, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 27.07.2023 um 18:39 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>> On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section
>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus
>>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s
>>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv
>>>>>>> tractor
>>>> unit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any
>>>>>> argument
>>>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>>>>
>>>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a
>>>>> bus then?
>>>>
>>>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>>>
>>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been
>>> filled in?
>>
>> Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>>>
>>>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>>>
>>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
>>> registered with the DVLA?
>>>
>>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>>
>> Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
>> double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.
>
> I would doubt the first half of the sentence and propose the expression:
> "any vehicle that is or was last registered as a bus is a bus".

That is colloquial usage as opposed to legal usage.

Same applies to museum and preserved examples.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Am 28.07.2023 um 11:12 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 28/07/2023 09:37, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 27.07.2023 um 18:39 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>> On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section
>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus
>>>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s
>>>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv
>>>>>>>> tractor
>>>>> unit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any
>>>>>>> argument
>>>>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed
>>>>>>> for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a
>>>>>> bus then?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>>>>
>>>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been
>>>> filled in?
>>>
>>> Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>>>>
>>>>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>>>>
>>>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no
>>>> longer
>>>> registered with the DVLA?
>>>>
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>>>
>>> Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
>>> double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.
>>
>> I would doubt the first half of the sentence and propose the
>> expression: "any vehicle that is or was last registered as a bus is a
>> bus".
>
> That is colloquial usage as opposed to legal usage.

I do not think so. A bus without a valid registration loses its status
as a "registered bus" but keeps its status as a bus.

I speculate that this 'Bus as a cafe' theoretically can be repaired and
re-registered as a bus keeping its grandfathered rights of only needing
to prove its 1960's (guess) standards of roadworthiness.
It will not be able to be registered as a car or lorry without complying
to the 2023 standards of roadworthiness.

Rolf

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 17:39:00 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been filled
>in?
>
>Basically, that applies to any vehicle.

So a SORNed car is not longer a car? A plane without an airworthiness
certificate is no longer a plane?

So what are they then?

>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
>> registered with the DVLA?
>>
>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>>
>
>Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
>double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.

Not interested in the legal definition.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:02:52 +0200
Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>On 27.07.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> So an artic isn't articulated, by your definition?
>>>>
>>>> ITYF the end of the semi trailer sits over the tractor wheels.
>>>
>>> In other words, it's suspended from the rear of the section ahead. The
>>> trailer doesn't connect directly to the wheelset.
>>
>> Define direct. Does the end of a carraige connect directly to the wheelset on
>
>> the bogie?
>
>Between the actual wheelset and the body of the load being carried,
>there is an articulation. Hence the name.

So what does the 5th wheel on an HGV do then, keep the tyres warm?

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 11:19:53 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
wrote:

>On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 20:02:52 +0200
>Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>On 27.07.23 17:22, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> So an artic isn't articulated, by your definition?
>>>>>
>>>>> ITYF the end of the semi trailer sits over the tractor wheels.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, it's suspended from the rear of the section ahead. The
>>>> trailer doesn't connect directly to the wheelset.
>>>
>>> Define direct. Does the end of a carraige connect directly to the wheelset on
>>
>>> the bogie?
>>
>>Between the actual wheelset and the body of the load being carried,
>>there is an articulation. Hence the name.
>
>So what does the 5th wheel on an HGV do then, keep the tyres warm?
>
It enables articulation of the entire assembly of tractor and trailer.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:12:40 +0100, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 28/07/2023 09:37, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 27.07.2023 um 18:39 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>> On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section
>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus
>>>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s
>>>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv
>>>>>>>> tractor
>>>>> unit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any
>>>>>>> argument
>>>>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a
>>>>>> bus then?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>>>>
>>>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been
>>>> filled in?
>>>
>>> Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>>>>
>>>>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>>>>
>>>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
>>>> registered with the DVLA?
>>>>
>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>>>
>>> Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
>>> double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.
>>
>> I would doubt the first half of the sentence and propose the expression:
>> "any vehicle that is or was last registered as a bus is a bus".
>
>That is colloquial usage as opposed to legal usage.
>
>Same applies to museum and preserved examples.
>
It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.

On 28/07/2023 18:47, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 10:12:40 +0100, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 28/07/2023 09:37, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 27.07.2023 um 18:39 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>>> On 27/07/2023 16:25, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 27 Jul 2023 14:19:11 +0100
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 27/07/2023 11:37, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 23:28:48 +0100
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 07:38:24 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 00:37:46 +0100
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 24 Jul 2023 13:47:51 +0200, Bob <bob@domain.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Articulated buses, of course, suspend one end of one section
>>>>>>>>>>> from the
>>>>>>>>>>> rear of the section ahead. I've never seen an articulated bus
>>>>>>>>>>> with any
>>>>>>>>>>> other arrangement.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In the articulated buses used in Heathrow in the early 1960s
>>>>>>>>>> there was
>>>>>>>>>> no passenger section ahead.
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/46986413@N07/50941261877
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Its stretching the definition of a bus somewhat given its an hgv
>>>>>>>>> tractor
>>>>>> unit
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> pulling a trailer with seats.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A passenger carrying vehicle with lots of seats (ignoring any
>>>>>>>> argument
>>>>>>>> about the precise manner of availability or what it is licensed for).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So a tractor pulling a trailer with seats at a country fair is a
>>>>>>> bus then?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV?
>>>>>
>>>>> So it can be a bus or not a bus depending on whether a form has been
>>>>> filled in?
>>>>
>>>> Basically, that applies to any vehicle.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this scrap bus acting as a cafe no longer a bus because its no longer
>>>>> registered with the DVLA?
>>>>>
>>>>> https://goo.gl/maps/MbUNZbRPN2mg4Ugx6
>>>>
>>>> Legally, no it is not a bus, neither are the various conversions of
>>>> double-decker buses to mobile exhibition vehicles.
>>>
>>> I would doubt the first half of the sentence and propose the expression:
>>> "any vehicle that is or was last registered as a bus is a bus".
>>
>> That is colloquial usage as opposed to legal usage.
>>
>> Same applies to museum and preserved examples.
>>
> It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
> e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
> types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.

In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd
converted to mobile homes.

[1] As opposed to the weekend hippies who'd travelled down from London
and elsewhere just to cause trouble.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
> few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd
> converted to mobile homes.
>

There was a Pub Landlord in Totton Hants who had a single decker and a
double decker , can’t recall
now if the single decker had been converted but the Double Decker certainly
had been converted to a motorhome though both vehicles externally still
looked like they did when in service with
the East Kent Road car company and unlike hippy buses looked in good
condition*.
He was interviewed on one of the local TV evening programmes ( probably
when Southern were still
the ITV contractor ) about his buses and the interviewer asked “why have a
double decker”?
The reply was “because I like to go upstairs to bed”.

*Though a lot were wrecked by the Police exceeding reasonable behaviour at
the battle of the bean fields having got away with similar behaviour on
striking miners shortly before.
<https://youtu.be/6LHizyCtakw>

After that I used to see parked in the area for some years a fire engine
that had been”hollowed
out” and used as a mobile home, it didn’t stand out like an old bus with
only a chimney for a stove sometimes poking out giving he game away.

GH

You guys better keep away from Australian road trains then - I could see
hours of arguing over the difference between a road train running 'dogs'
under the trailers and a B-Triple or B-Quad configuration.

On 27/7/23 23:19, Graeme Wall wrote:

>>> Smaller buses can be based on the chassises of large vans (or in past
>>> times on a lorry chassis). Does that mean they aren't buses?
>>
>> Depends where you draw the line. Is a 7 seat SUV a bus?
>>
>
> Is it registered as a PSV? More likely to be a taxi.

My employer has a Toyota 'troop carrier' land cruiser. As it still has
the bench seats in the back and can seat 8 people, it's registered as a
bus and as such has to have the full inspection as a bus every year.
Crazy thing is company policy doesn't allow us to use the sideways
facing seats as the lap seat belts are considered dangerous in an actual
crash. But our vehicle co-coordinator won't remove the seats as he wants
to keep the flexibility to use them if needed.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:25:56 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 28/07/2023 18:47, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
>> e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
>> types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.
>
>In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
>few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd

Or travellers as they're known these days. Usually turning up en mass and
usually trouble.

On 29/07/2023 01:24, Matthew Geier wrote:
>
> You guys better keep away from Australian road trains then - I could see
> hours of arguing over the difference between a road train running 'dogs'
> under the trailers and a B-Triple or B-Quad configuration.

:-)

On 29/07/2023 09:44, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:25:56 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/07/2023 18:47, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
>>> e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
>>> types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.
>>
>> In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
>> few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd
>
> Or travellers as they're known these days. Usually turning up en mass and
> usually trouble.
>

The original 60s hippies have largely died out, sometimes literally.
Travellers and hippies are actually two entirely different communities,
not that I'd expect you to realise that.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:25:56 +0100
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 28/07/2023 18:47, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
>>> e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
>>> types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.
>>
>> In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
>> few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd
>
> Or travellers as they're known these days. Usually turning up en mass and
> usually trouble.
>
>

I don’t think they were /are quite the same.
Hippies may have been a bit messy and unkempt but unlike when a group of
travellers arrive in area when the break ins to sheds,theft of machinery
and lead increase , shops looted and fly tipping and a costly mess to clear
up didn’t occur like it does with the Irish Travellers. And the latter have
managed to get themselves registered as an ethnic minority so as their
behaviour is part of their culture many attempts to deal with them get
thwarted by them playing the discrimination card.

There is no Great Dorset Steam Fair this year. Officially it is because the
economic climate and fuel cost means it would be uneconomic but many
suspect it is because the traveller community have increasingly added it to
their Calendar and turn up on mass and invade the area for weeks before
like they do with Wickham and Appleby Horse fairs. Dorset Council now
insist that the organisers of
the Steam Fair provide land for them to occupy, of course normal people if
they roll up in a caravan
but have to pay but not the travellers. So thats another burden on the
shows finances.
At least the supermarkets in nearby Blandford wont be robbed as much this
year.
SOP of these scum is to send in a couple of their untouchable kids who
urinate into a freezer , the contents can’t then be sold so end up in a
waste bin , before it can be collected the travellers invade the rear yard
of the store and threaten any staff while they empty the bin and get free
food for the week, after all with most things shrink wrapped they only need
a rinse.

GH

On Sat, 29 Jul 2023 10:50:39 +0100
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 29/07/2023 09:44, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 20:25:56 +0100
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 28/07/2023 18:47, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> It is also likely to depend on context. A privately-owned bus carrying
>>>> e.g. only driver and family might be just a heavy motor car but other
>>>> types of use might intrude into various spheres of regulation.
>>>
>>> In the hey-day of the hippy convoys to Stonehenge in the 1980s quite a
>>> few of the genuine hippies[1] had old single decker buses they'd
>>
>> Or travellers as they're known these days. Usually turning up en mass and
>> usually trouble.
>>
>
>The original 60s hippies have largely died out, sometimes literally.
>Travellers and hippies are actually two entirely different communities,
>not that I'd expect you to realise that.

Unwashed, workshy and living in vehices parked up in some farmers field
causing a nuisance. Yeah, big difference.