Dave Royal <dave@dave123royal.com> wrote:
> On 22 Dec 2023 19:20:03 -0000 (UTC) Sam Wilson wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yes - see thread titled WCRC claim fails.
>>
>> Sam
>>
> But unlike that thread, this one says what it's about rather than
> expecting us to follow a link.

Hmm. I didn’t start that thread but I thought the Subject of the other one
was very clear, especially since there had been discussion about the issue
here recently.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <um6iuu$227n3$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:22 on Sat, 23 Dec
2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:

>> As far as I can see, they suggest the cost is externalised, by
>>raising fares. I'm unsighted as to how many passenger-trips they do
>>each year, but if you tell us, we could begin to calculate the impact.
>
>According to latest issue of Railway Magazine.
>
>"750 people travel on the service per day in the peak season"

Seems quite a lot, what would we expect a LHCS to seat?

When I saw it in September, it had six carriages, with the front one off
the platform at at Mallaig, hence the need for some of the door-control
procedures; some photos show it with as few as four or as many as
seven). The agreement with network Rail allows up to seven cars, apart
from Saturdays in the peaks when one of the two trains a day is limited
to six.

Anyway, with two trains a day[1] in the peak season, that's 375 per
train. And there are (if we assume 6-car trains in the peaks, 4 car
off-peak a total of 333 equivalent 6-car services a year.

I see it's priced at £65 Standard (next year, return fares only), so
with 80% load factor that's £6.5m, from which subtract the operating
costs, track access charges etc.

Plus a bit because there's some First Class, and various other charges
for special seating arrangements. There's not premium, or discount, for
booking a whole compartment.

[1] It runs daily from March to October, twice daily from May to
September.
--
Roland Perry

In message <um6t3g$23r2u$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:07:30 on Sat, 23 Dec
2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>On 23/12/2023 14:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>
>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>
>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through them.

>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and
>>have the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less
>>time than typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better
>>informed.
>>
>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>> estimates.

>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>>such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>>work. If that lower quote makes it economic.
>
>I recall a post in these threads that WCR were talking about the need
>to convert over 100 carriages. The numbers referred to in the court
>case were 4 trains of 12 carriages each, a total of 48, costing about
>£1.3m and not the original £7m quoted by WCR in their press release
>prior to the case.
>
>Seems to me that, as usual, there are differing numbers to get
>differing results - typical accountants methodology of obscuring facts
>by numbers.

Perhaps "The Jacobite" is being used as a test-case for the whole of
their fleet. The former is only ever seven carriages, and just the one
rake is required to do the one or two return trips a day.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <um6t3g$23r2u$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:07:30 on Sat, 23 Dec
> 2023, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 23/12/2023 14:31, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>>
>>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through them.
>
>>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and
>>> have the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less
>>> time than typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better
>>> informed.
>>>
>>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>>> estimates.
>
>>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>>> such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>>> work. If that lower quote makes it economic.
>>
>> I recall a post in these threads that WCR were talking about the need
>> to convert over 100 carriages. The numbers referred to in the court
>> case were 4 trains of 12 carriages each, a total of 48, costing about
>> £1.3m and not the original £7m quoted by WCR in their press release
>> prior to the case.
>>
>> Seems to me that, as usual, there are differing numbers to get
>> differing results - typical accountants methodology of obscuring facts
>> by numbers.
>
> Perhaps "The Jacobite" is being used as a test-case for the whole of
> their fleet. The former is only ever seven carriages, and just the one
> rake is required to do the one or two return trips a day.

Given the position of ORR and the court, and the company’s past safety
record, I’m surprised they can now obtain insurance for the Jacobite
operation at a reasonable premium.

In message <1kIhN.46631$i529.10610@fx12.ams1>, at 21:30:37 on Sat, 23
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 11:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>
>> What is actually involved in fitting CDL? That seems a lot of money for
>> fitting electrically-operated bolts and/or modifying door catches.
>
>The doors and frames will all need modifying, with some sort of override
>panel fitted to each. There will need to be sensors to confirm the lock or
>release, with signals passed to the guard and driver. The carriages will
>need to cabled up, with the lock and confirmation signals passing along the
>train. The system will need power (in carriages without a reliable power
>supply),

Tell me about it. perhaps four years ago we went on one of their
railtours, to the York Xmas Fair I think. and we travelled in the
standard class accommodation in 'the other half' of the buffet car.

Soon after we left York on the way back, the electrical power in that
carriage failed, and we were moved to some empty seats in the adjacent
First Class (not fine-dining) carriage. Sadly the whole experience has
somewhat put SWMBO off doing railtours at all.

But I've twisted her arm, stumped up for fine-dining, and booked three
since then. Even more sadly, all were subsequently cancelled (mainly due
to RMT strike action). I used the cash to buy a week's FC Rover, and we
went to Scotland and back (see various recent, probably getting a bit
boring now, postings).

2/3 of the way round, we arrived at Mallaig on the ferry from Skye (£60
taxi from Kyle to Armadale, don't believe the bloggers who say get a bus
- there's only one per day), and The Jacobite was on the adjacent
platform scheduled to leave about half an hour after our Scotrail.

In retrospect I should have negotiated with the staff to sell us a
single ticket (which they claim doesn't exist); like the ferry, it was
pretty lightly loaded on that Wednesday afternoon in mid September. The
Scotrail train only had standard accommodation, of course.

>for both the locks and the electronics.
>
>ORR thought the cost per carriage should be no more than £26,250; WCRC said
>£30k. ORR said up to 48 carriages would need doing; WCRC allowed for 100.
>WCRC said there would be a loss of revenue while the carriages were taken
>out of service; ORR pointed out that it was amenable to the work being
>staged, and that there were quiet periods in the winter when few charters
>(and no Jacobites) operated.
>
>Something else that doesn't seem to have been mentioned is that WCRC is
>currently less busy than before, as it lost Steam Dreams as a customer last
>year. That should free up some stock for modifications.
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <um8qik$2gigt$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:36:36 on Sun, 24 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Perhaps "The Jacobite" is being used as a test-case for the whole of
>> their fleet. The former is only ever seven carriages, and just the one
>> rake is required to do the one or two return trips a day.
>
>Given the position of ORR and the court, and the company’s past safety
>record, I’m surprised they can now obtain insurance for the Jacobite
>operation at a reasonable premium.

Sorry, they do need two rakes (and hence two kettles), because one
leaves Fort William at 10:15 and the other at 12:50, by which time the
first rake has only just arrived at Mallaig. But leaves before the
second service arrives, so they only need one platform at Mallaig.
--
Roland Perry

In message <um6shk$23rba$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:57:56 on Sat, 23 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>
>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>
>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through them.
>>
>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and have
>> the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less time than
>> typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better informed.
>>
>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>> estimates.
>>
>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>> such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>> work. If that lower quote makes it economic.

Thankyou for these extracts.

>76. The Claimant initially estimated the costs of retrofitting central door
>locking at £3 million, which was based on an approximate cost of £30,000
>per carriage to fit central door locking. As the parties accepted, the
>latter figure is broadly in line with the ORR’s assessment of a maximum
>cost per carriage of £26,250.

Hurrah.

>The Claimant’s cost estimate later rose to £7
>million, which was said to be direct costs and lost revenue. No supporting
>evidence was provided. The ORR disputed the estimate. The increase in
>estimate appears to relate to loss of revenue but the ORR has indicated
>that it is prepared to allow a transition period for the installation of
>central door locking and has done so for other operators. The Court was
>told that other operators have done the work in January and February, out
>of season, so as to reduce the impact on revenue. The Claimant’s Jacobite
>train only operates in the summer months, which would enable the work to be
>done in the winter months without loss of revenue. “Since the burden of
>proof is usually on the person who asserts a fact to be true, if that
>burden is not discharged, the court will proceed on the basis that the fact
>has not been proved” (R (Talpada) v SSHD [2018] EWCA Civ 84, Hallett LJ at
>§2). Accordingly, the Court proceeds on the basis the £7 million estimate
>has not been proved.
>
>77. The Claimant’s initial estimate of £3 million was based on an
>approximate cost of £30,000 per carriage to fit central door locking. The
>Claimant’s application for an exemption indicates that it expects to run
>between 1 – 5 services a day. Thus, the costs would range, on the
>Claimant’s estimate, from £360,000 - £1,800,000 to operate the requisite
>number of daily services.

£360k per service is a useful data point.

>The ORR’s upper estimate was £1,393,920 to fit out 4 trains for
>daily use, based on information from Network Rail that it was not aware
>of a heritage train operator running more than 4 services a day.
>
>81. In witness evidence, a representative of the Claimant explained that
>the company has 101,429 passenger journeys on the Jacobite line which
>generates £4.7 million in fare income and £5.7 million in turnover per
>annum.

See my earlier posting on the back of an envelope. Presumably the extra
£1m is sales in the buffet car?

>The average return ticket is £46.58

That doesn't compute because currently they are quoting £65 for a
standard day-return, more for first-class. Or are they selling a quite a
lot through agencies which take a handsome commission?

>and the average profit is £1 million per annum. It is apparent that a
>modest rise in fares, in circumstances where the Court was told that
>the Claimant has a monopoly and a relatively price-insensitive customer
>demographic, ought to enable the Claimant to meet the cost of fitting
>central door locking in a phased manner. A £10 increase in the fare
>for the Jacobite service would generate approximately an additional
>£1million per annum in revenue with no additional overheads. The ORR
>has explained to the Court that it is not averse to a transition
>timetable for fitting CDL because it does not want to end the heritage
>train services.

I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
situation.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <um6shk$23rba$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:57:56 on Sat, 23 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>>
>>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through them.
>>>
>>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and have
>>> the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less time than
>>> typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better informed.
>>>
>>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>>> estimates.
>>>
>>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>>> such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>>> work. If that lower quote makes it economic.
>
> Thankyou for these extracts.
>
>> 76. The Claimant initially estimated the costs of retrofitting central door
>> locking at £3 million, which was based on an approximate cost of £30,000
>> per carriage to fit central door locking. As the parties accepted, the
>> latter figure is broadly in line with the ORR’s assessment of a maximum
>> cost per carriage of £26,250.
>
> Hurrah.
>
>> The Claimant’s cost estimate later rose to £7
>> million, which was said to be direct costs and lost revenue. No supporting
>> evidence was provided. The ORR disputed the estimate. The increase in
>> estimate appears to relate to loss of revenue but the ORR has indicated
>> that it is prepared to allow a transition period for the installation of
>> central door locking and has done so for other operators. The Court was
>> told that other operators have done the work in January and February, out
>> of season, so as to reduce the impact on revenue. The Claimant’s Jacobite
>> train only operates in the summer months, which would enable the work to be
>> done in the winter months without loss of revenue. “Since the burden of
>> proof is usually on the person who asserts a fact to be true, if that
>> burden is not discharged, the court will proceed on the basis that the fact
>> has not been proved” (R (Talpada) v SSHD [2018] EWCA Civ 84, Hallett LJ at
>> §2). Accordingly, the Court proceeds on the basis the £7 million estimate
>> has not been proved.
>>
>> 77. The Claimant’s initial estimate of £3 million was based on an
>> approximate cost of £30,000 per carriage to fit central door locking. The
>> Claimant’s application for an exemption indicates that it expects to run
>> between 1 – 5 services a day. Thus, the costs would range, on the
>> Claimant’s estimate, from £360,000 - £1,800,000 to operate the requisite
>> number of daily services.
>
> £360k per service is a useful data point.
>
>> The ORR’s upper estimate was £1,393,920 to fit out 4 trains for
>> daily use, based on information from Network Rail that it was not aware
>> of a heritage train operator running more than 4 services a day.
>>
>> 81. In witness evidence, a representative of the Claimant explained that
>> the company has 101,429 passenger journeys on the Jacobite line which
>> generates £4.7 million in fare income and £5.7 million in turnover per
>> annum.
>
> See my earlier posting on the back of an envelope. Presumably the extra
> £1m is sales in the buffet car?
>
>> The average return ticket is £46.58
>
> That doesn't compute because currently they are quoting £65 for a
> standard day-return, more for first-class. Or are they selling a quite a
> lot through agencies which take a handsome commission?
>
>> and the average profit is £1 million per annum. It is apparent that a
>> modest rise in fares, in circumstances where the Court was told that
>> the Claimant has a monopoly and a relatively price-insensitive customer
>> demographic, ought to enable the Claimant to meet the cost of fitting
>> central door locking in a phased manner. A £10 increase in the fare
>> for the Jacobite service would generate approximately an additional
>> £1million per annum in revenue with no additional overheads. The ORR
>> has explained to the Court that it is not averse to a transition
>> timetable for fitting CDL because it does not want to end the heritage
>> train services.
>
> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
> situation.

Child day return fares of £36 probably lower the average fare. It’s likely
to be a service with a significant number of children given the Harry
Potter connection.

WCR seem to have had an unfortunate relationship with safety over the
years, this is just the latest episode. Starting off with a claimed £7m
cost and implying this was the cost of retrofitting the Jacobite service
was bound not to stand scrutiny. I wonder if they were hoping to extract
some form of grant funding?

On 24/12/2023 09:06, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <um6shk$23rba$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:57:56 on Sat, 23 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>>
>>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think
>>>>> you can
>>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>>
>>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through
>>>> them.
>>>
>>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and have
>>> the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less time than
>>> typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better informed.
>>>
>>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>>> estimates.
>>>
>>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>>> such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>>> work. If that lower quote makes it economic.
>
> Thankyou for these extracts.
>
>> 76. The Claimant initially estimated the costs of retrofitting central
>> door
>> locking at £3 million, which was based on an approximate cost of £30,000
>> per carriage to fit central door locking. As the parties accepted, the
>> latter figure is broadly in line with the ORR’s assessment of a maximum
>> cost per carriage of £26,250.
>
> Hurrah.
>
>> The Claimant’s cost estimate later rose to £7
>> million, which was said to be direct costs and lost revenue. No
>> supporting
>> evidence was provided. The ORR disputed the estimate. The increase in
>> estimate appears to relate to loss of revenue but the ORR has indicated
>> that it is prepared to allow a transition period for the installation of
>> central door locking and has done so for other operators. The Court was
>> told that other operators have done the work in January and February, out
>> of season, so as to reduce the impact on revenue. The Claimant’s Jacobite
>> train only operates in the summer months, which would enable the work
>> to be
>> done in the winter months without loss of revenue. “Since the burden of
>> proof is usually on the person who asserts a fact to be true, if that
>> burden is not discharged, the court will proceed on the basis that the
>> fact
>> has not been proved” (R (Talpada) v SSHD [2018] EWCA Civ 84, Hallett
>> LJ at
>> §2). Accordingly, the Court proceeds on the basis the £7 million estimate
>> has not been proved.
>>
>> 77. The Claimant’s initial estimate of £3 million was based on an
>> approximate cost of £30,000 per carriage to fit central door locking. The
>> Claimant’s application for an exemption indicates that it expects to run
>> between 1 – 5 services a day. Thus, the costs would range, on the
>> Claimant’s estimate, from £360,000 - £1,800,000 to operate the requisite
>> number of daily services.
>
> £360k per service is a useful data point.
>
>> The ORR’s upper estimate was £1,393,920 to fit out 4 trains for daily
>> use, based on information from Network Rail that it was not aware of a
>> heritage train operator running more than 4 services a day.
>>
>> 81. In witness evidence, a representative of the Claimant explained that
>> the company has 101,429 passenger journeys on the Jacobite line which
>> generates £4.7 million in fare income and £5.7 million in turnover per
>> annum.
>
> See my earlier posting on the back of an envelope. Presumably the extra
> £1m is sales in the buffet car?
>
>> The average return ticket is £46.58
>
> That doesn't compute because currently they are quoting £65 for a
> standard day-return, more for first-class. Or are they selling a quite a
> lot through agencies which take a handsome commission?
>
>> and the average profit is £1 million per annum. It is apparent that a
>> modest rise in fares, in circumstances where the Court was told that
>> the Claimant has a monopoly and a relatively price-insensitive
>> customer demographic, ought to enable the Claimant to meet the cost of
>> fitting central door locking in a phased manner. A £10 increase in the
>> fare for the Jacobite service would generate approximately an
>> additional £1million per annum in revenue with no additional
>> overheads. The ORR has explained to the Court that it is not averse to
>> a transition timetable for fitting CDL because it does not want to end
>> the heritage train services.
>
> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
> situation.

WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew and
a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's not a
cheap operation.

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 24/12/2023 09:06, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <um6shk$23rba$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:57:56 on Sat, 23 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <um6m0s$22ofp$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:36 on Sat, 23 Dec
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> The service makes £1m profit per year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think
>>>>>> you can
>>>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>>>
>>>>> The judgement even gives the cost of fitting each coach, and I even
>>>>> referenced the two paragraph numbers, knowing a) your desire for seeing
>>>>> original sources and b) your lack of enthusiasm for reading through
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have the time today, but as you've obviously read it and have
>>>> the numbers at your fingertips, typing them in would take less time than
>>>> typoing in that quibble. And we'd *all* be instantly better informed.
>>>>
>>>>> If you read these, you will see the court disagrees with WCR’s cost
>>>>> estimates.
>>>>
>>>> Did they have an expert witness willing to quote less for installing
>>>> such a system. If so then WCR should indeed be hiring them to do the
>>>> work. If that lower quote makes it economic.
>>
>> Thankyou for these extracts.
>>
>>> 76. The Claimant initially estimated the costs of retrofitting central
>>> door
>>> locking at £3 million, which was based on an approximate cost of £30,000
>>> per carriage to fit central door locking. As the parties accepted, the
>>> latter figure is broadly in line with the ORR’s assessment of a maximum
>>> cost per carriage of £26,250.
>>
>> Hurrah.
>>
>>> The Claimant’s cost estimate later rose to £7
>>> million, which was said to be direct costs and lost revenue. No
>>> supporting
>>> evidence was provided. The ORR disputed the estimate. The increase in
>>> estimate appears to relate to loss of revenue but the ORR has indicated
>>> that it is prepared to allow a transition period for the installation of
>>> central door locking and has done so for other operators. The Court was
>>> told that other operators have done the work in January and February, out
>>> of season, so as to reduce the impact on revenue. The Claimant’s Jacobite
>>> train only operates in the summer months, which would enable the work
>>> to be
>>> done in the winter months without loss of revenue. “Since the burden of
>>> proof is usually on the person who asserts a fact to be true, if that
>>> burden is not discharged, the court will proceed on the basis that the
>>> fact
>>> has not been proved” (R (Talpada) v SSHD [2018] EWCA Civ 84, Hallett
>>> LJ at
>>> §2). Accordingly, the Court proceeds on the basis the £7 million estimate
>>> has not been proved.
>>>
>>> 77. The Claimant’s initial estimate of £3 million was based on an
>>> approximate cost of £30,000 per carriage to fit central door locking. The
>>> Claimant’s application for an exemption indicates that it expects to run
>>> between 1 – 5 services a day. Thus, the costs would range, on the
>>> Claimant’s estimate, from £360,000 - £1,800,000 to operate the requisite
>>> number of daily services.
>>
>> £360k per service is a useful data point.
>>
>>> The ORR’s upper estimate was £1,393,920 to fit out 4 trains for daily
>>> use, based on information from Network Rail that it was not aware of a
>>> heritage train operator running more than 4 services a day.
>>>
>>> 81. In witness evidence, a representative of the Claimant explained that
>>> the company has 101,429 passenger journeys on the Jacobite line which
>>> generates £4.7 million in fare income and £5.7 million in turnover per
>>> annum.
>>
>> See my earlier posting on the back of an envelope. Presumably the extra
>> £1m is sales in the buffet car?
>>
>>> The average return ticket is £46.58
>>
>> That doesn't compute because currently they are quoting £65 for a
>> standard day-return, more for first-class. Or are they selling a quite a
>> lot through agencies which take a handsome commission?
>>
>>> and the average profit is £1 million per annum. It is apparent that a
>>> modest rise in fares, in circumstances where the Court was told that
>>> the Claimant has a monopoly and a relatively price-insensitive
>>> customer demographic, ought to enable the Claimant to meet the cost of
>>> fitting central door locking in a phased manner. A £10 increase in the
>>> fare for the Jacobite service would generate approximately an
>>> additional £1million per annum in revenue with no additional
>>> overheads. The ORR has explained to the Court that it is not averse to
>>> a transition timetable for fitting CDL because it does not want to end
>>> the heritage train services.
>>
>> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
>> situation.
>
> WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
> diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew and
> a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's not a
> cheap operation.
>
>

But makes £1m *profit* per year.

In message <um8umu$2h0ms$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:47:09 on Sun, 24 Dec
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>>> Claimant’s estimate, from £360,000 - £1,800,000 to operate the requisite
>>> number of daily services.

>> £360k per service is a useful data point.
>>
>>> The ORR’s upper estimate was £1,393,920 to fit out 4 trains for
>>>daily use, based on information from Network Rail that it was not
>>>aware of a heritage train operator running more than 4 services a day.
>>>
>>> 81. In witness evidence, a representative of the Claimant explained that
>>> the company has 101,429 passenger journeys on the Jacobite line which
>>> generates £4.7 million in fare income and £5.7 million in turnover per
>>> annum.

>> See my earlier posting on the back of an envelope. Presumably the
>>extra £1m is sales in the buffet car?
>>
>>> The average return ticket is £46.58

>> That doesn't compute because currently they are quoting £65 for a
>>standard day-return, more for first-class. Or are they selling a quite
>>a lot through agencies which take a handsome commission?
>>
>>> and the average profit is £1 million per annum. It is apparent that
>>>a modest rise in fares, in circumstances where the Court was told
>>>that the Claimant has a monopoly and a relatively price-insensitive
>>>customer demographic, ought to enable the Claimant to meet the cost
>>>of fitting central door locking in a phased manner. A £10 increase
>>>in the fare for the Jacobite service would generate approximately an
>>>additional £1million per annum in revenue with no additional
>>>overheads. The ORR has explained to the Court that it is not averse
>>>to a transition timetable for fitting CDL because it does not want
>>>to end the heritage train services.

>> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging
>>the situation.
>
>WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
>diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew
>and a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's
>not a cheap operation.

I'm aware that B&B in Fort William seems extraordinarily expensive (we
paid getting on for £200 to stay one night in the Premier Inn midweek
in September, and that didn't even include breakfast). But surely that's
just part of their £360k/day?
--
Roland Perry

In message <um8v7v$2h6ve$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:56:16 on Sun, 24 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>>>The Jacobite line which generates £4.7 million in fare income and
>>>>£5.7 million in turnover per annum.
....
>>> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
>>> situation.
>>
>> WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
>> diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew and
>> a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's not a
>> cheap operation.
>
>But makes £1m *profit* per year.

That's not especially excessive given the turnover.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <um8v7v$2h6ve$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:56:16 on Sun, 24 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>>> The Jacobite line which generates £4.7 million in fare income and
>>>>> £5.7 million in turnover per annum.
> ...
>>>> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
>>>> situation.
>>>
>>> WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
>>> diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew and
>>> a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's not a
>>> cheap operation.
>>
>> But makes £1m *profit* per year.
>
> That's not especially excessive given the turnover.

I’m not claiming it is, I was simply pointing out that the crew costs etc
are already well covered.
As a side note, the important thing is the profit vs the capital employed.
Turnover is a side issue.

In message <um91dc$2hhln$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:33:16 on Sun, 24 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <um8v7v$2h6ve$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:56:16 on Sun, 24 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> The Jacobite line which generates £4.7 million in fare income and
>>>>>> £5.7 million in turnover per annum.
>> ...
>>>>> I'm beginning to lose sympathy with WCR, who seem to be over-egging the
>>>>> situation.
>>>>
>>>> WSR will also need spare rolling stock and locomotives plus one or two
>>>> diesels at Fort William. They probably have at least five train crew and
>>>> a whole fleet of support staff there who have to be housed. It's not a
>>>> cheap operation.
>>>
>>> But makes £1m *profit* per year.
>>
>> That's not especially excessive given the turnover.
>
>I’m not claiming it is, I was simply pointing out that the crew costs etc
>are already well covered.

Yes, in the £360k-a-train costs.

>As a side note, the important thing is the profit vs the capital employed.
>Turnover is a side issue.

MSM always concentrates on profit as a percentage of turnover.

Perhaps because if you are making "only" 6.4% [straw poll, Tesco] if
your turnover falls noticeably, your costs for things which capital is
employed on (like shops), doesn't reduce much. Most of the stock
"belongs" to the suppliers, which helps though.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <um6iuu$227n3$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:22 on Sat, 23 Dec
> 2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>
>>> As far as I can see, they suggest the cost is externalised, by
>>> raising fares. I'm unsighted as to how many passenger-trips they do
>>> each year, but if you tell us, we could begin to calculate the impact.
>>
>> According to latest issue of Railway Magazine.
>>
>> "750 people travel on the service per day in the peak season"
>
> Seems quite a lot, what would we expect a LHCS to seat?

64 seats in std, 42 in First in a Mk 1.

>
> When I saw it in September, it had six carriages, with the front one off
> the platform at at Mallaig, hence the need for some of the door-control
> procedures; some photos show it with as few as four or as many as
> seven). The agreement with network Rail allows up to seven cars, apart
> from Saturdays in the peaks when one of the two trains a day is limited
> to six.
>
> Anyway, with two trains a day[1] in the peak season, that's 375 per
> train. And there are (if we assume 6-car trains in the peaks, 4 car
> off-peak a total of 333 equivalent 6-car services a year.
>
> I see it's priced at £65 Standard (next year, return fares only), so
> with 80% load factor that's £6.5m, from which subtract the operating
> costs, track access charges etc.
>
> Plus a bit because there's some First Class, and various other charges
> for special seating arrangements. There's not premium, or discount, for
> booking a whole compartment.
>
> [1] It runs daily from March to October, twice daily from May to
> September.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <1kIhN.46631$i529.10610@fx12.ams1>, at 21:30:37 on Sat, 23
> Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com> wrote:
>>> On 23/12/2023 11:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>>
>>> What is actually involved in fitting CDL? That seems a lot of money for
>>> fitting electrically-operated bolts and/or modifying door catches.
>>
>> The doors and frames will all need modifying, with some sort of override
>> panel fitted to each. There will need to be sensors to confirm the lock or
>> release, with signals passed to the guard and driver. The carriages will
>> need to cabled up, with the lock and confirmation signals passing along the
>> train. The system will need power (in carriages without a reliable power
>> supply),
>
> Tell me about it. perhaps four years ago we went on one of their
> railtours, to the York Xmas Fair I think. and we travelled in the
> standard class accommodation in 'the other half' of the buffet car.
>
> Soon after we left York on the way back, the electrical power in that
> carriage failed, and we were moved to some empty seats in the adjacent
> First Class (not fine-dining) carriage. Sadly the whole experience has
> somewhat put SWMBO off doing railtours at all.
>
> But I've twisted her arm, stumped up for fine-dining, and booked three
> since then. Even more sadly, all were subsequently cancelled (mainly due
> to RMT strike action). I used the cash to buy a week's FC Rover, and we
> went to Scotland and back (see various recent, probably getting a bit
> boring now, postings).
>
> 2/3 of the way round, we arrived at Mallaig on the ferry from Skye (£60
> taxi from Kyle to Armadale, don't believe the bloggers who say get a bus
> - there's only one per day), and The Jacobite was on the adjacent
> platform scheduled to leave about half an hour after our Scotrail.
>
> In retrospect I should have negotiated with the staff to sell us a
> single ticket (which they claim doesn't exist); like the ferry, it was
> pretty lightly loaded on that Wednesday afternoon in mid September. The
> Scotrail train only had standard accommodation, of course.

I recent years I've travelled one-way first class on the Jacobite in both
directions (different years). Lots of people travel on it in conjunction
with the Skye ferry, so that's a perfectly normal trip.

In message <ecZhN.14168$Do46.11888@fx08.ams1>, at 16:42:50 on Sun, 24
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <um6iuu$227n3$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:22 on Sat, 23 Dec
>> 2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>
>>>> As far as I can see, they suggest the cost is externalised, by
>>>> raising fares. I'm unsighted as to how many passenger-trips they do
>>>> each year, but if you tell us, we could begin to calculate the impact.
>>>
>>> According to latest issue of Railway Magazine.
>>>
>>> "750 people travel on the service per day in the peak season"
>>
>> Seems quite a lot, what would we expect a LHCS to seat?
>
>64 seats in std, 42 in First in a Mk 1.

So with a 6-car train, two carriages of FC, that'd be 256+82=338, a
little shy of 750/2

>> When I saw it in September, it had six carriages, with the front one off
>> the platform at at Mallaig, hence the need for some of the door-control
>> procedures; some photos show it with as few as four or as many as
>> seven). The agreement with network Rail allows up to seven cars, apart
>> from Saturdays in the peaks when one of the two trains a day is limited
>> to six.
>>
>> Anyway, with two trains a day[1] in the peak season, that's 375 per
>> train. And there are (if we assume 6-car trains in the peaks, 4 car
>> off-peak a total of 333 equivalent 6-car services a year.
>>
>> I see it's priced at £65 Standard (next year, return fares only), so
>> with 80% load factor that's £6.5m, from which subtract the operating
>> costs, track access charges etc.
>>
>> Plus a bit because there's some First Class, and various other charges
>> for special seating arrangements. There's not premium, or discount, for
>> booking a whole compartment.
>>
>> [1] It runs daily from March to October, twice daily from May to
>> September.
>
>
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <NoZTiTWJ8+hlFA1+@perry.uk>, at 08:42:49 on Sun, 24 Dec 2023,
Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> remarked:
>>> What is actually involved in fitting CDL? That seems a lot of money for
>>> fitting electrically-operated bolts and/or modifying door catches.
>>
>>The doors and frames will all need modifying, with some sort of override
>>panel fitted to each. There will need to be sensors to confirm the lock or
>>release, with signals passed to the guard and driver. The carriages will
>>need to cabled up, with the lock and confirmation signals passing along the
>>train. The system will need power (in carriages without a reliable power
>>supply),
>
>Tell me about it. perhaps four years ago we went on one of their
>railtours, to the York Xmas Fair I think. and we travelled in the
>standard class accommodation in 'the other half' of the buffet car.
>
>Soon after we left York on the way back, the electrical power in that
>carriage failed, and we were moved to some empty seats in the adjacent
>First Class (not fine-dining) carriage.

And out of the blue, Facebook reminds me it was seven years ago, trip on
21st Dec, photos posted 24th Dec.
--
Roland Perry

Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com> wrote:
> On 23/12/2023 11:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>
> What is actually involved in fitting CDL? That seems a lot of money for
> fitting electrically-operated bolts and/or modifying door catches.
>

The costs actually seem to be around £26-30,000 per carriage, each with 4-6
doors, so around £5k per door.

BR's 1990s system fitted to Mk 2/3 stock uses air-operated locking bolts at
the top of the door - not so convenient on a train with vacuum brakes!

I believe Hastings Diesels (HDL) use some kind of a mechanical system but
I'm not clear on the details.

The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
others.

In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
(SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
the guard's vehicle only.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <umgq6r$3scal$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:23 on Wed, 27 Dec
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
>the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
>Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
>others.
>
>In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
>indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
>override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
>them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
>unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
>two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
>however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
>hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
>(SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
>the guard's vehicle only.

I already said the platforms at Mallaig need SDO for 7-car trains (and
quite likely the forward doors on the next carriage).
--
Roland Perry

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Laurence Taylor <laurence@nospam.plus.com> wrote:
>> On 23/12/2023 11:37, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> And WCR claim fitting the equipment would cost £5m. If you think you can
>>> do it for substantially less, then maybe you should put in a bid.
>>
>> What is actually involved in fitting CDL? That seems a lot of money for
>> fitting electrically-operated bolts and/or modifying door catches.
>>
>
> The costs actually seem to be around £26-30,000 per carriage, each with 4-6
> doors, so around £5k per door.
>
> BR's 1990s system fitted to Mk 2/3 stock uses air-operated locking bolts at
> the top of the door - not so convenient on a train with vacuum brakes!
>
> I believe Hastings Diesels (HDL) use some kind of a mechanical system but
> I'm not clear on the details.
>
> The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
> the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
> Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
> others.
>
> In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
> indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
> override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
> them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
> unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
> two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
> however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
> hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
> (SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
> the guard's vehicle only.
>

WCRC charters often serve stations with short platforms, so SDO would be a
requirement.

On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:35:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <umgq6r$3scal$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:23 on Wed, 27 Dec
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
>>the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
>>Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
>>others.
>>
>>In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
>>indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
>>override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
>>them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
>>unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
>>two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
>>however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
>>hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
>>(SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
>>the guard's vehicle only.
>
>I already said the platforms at Mallaig need SDO for 7-car trains (and
>quite likely the forward doors on the next carriage).

Would there be a business case to change the maximum length of the
train to 6-car if this would result in significant savings in the cost
of modifications?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:35:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <umgq6r$3scal$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:23 on Wed, 27 Dec
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>> The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
>>> the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
>>> Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
>>> others.
>>>
>>> In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
>>> indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
>>> override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
>>> them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
>>> unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
>>> two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
>>> however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
>>> hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
>>> (SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
>>> the guard's vehicle only.
>>
>> I already said the platforms at Mallaig need SDO for 7-car trains (and
>> quite likely the forward doors on the next carriage).
>
> Would there be a business case to change the maximum length of the
> train to 6-car if this would result in significant savings in the cost
> of modifications?

No, because WCRC charter trains often serve stations with relatively short
platforms that don't normally see full-length long distance trains. By the
time you have a steam loco, tender, support coach, staff coach, and kitchen
car, that's quite a length to add on to, say, 8-10 passenger/buffet
coaches.

In message <dgmooi99gslr5mqje5jh53vevqnt3jgkdm@4ax.com>, at 17:09:38 on
Wed, 27 Dec 2023, Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> remarked:
>On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:35:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <umgq6r$3scal$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:23 on Wed, 27 Dec
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
>>>the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
>>>Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
>>>others.
>>>
>>>In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
>>>indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
>>>override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
>>>them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
>>>unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
>>>two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
>>>however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
>>>hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
>>>(SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
>>>the guard's vehicle only.
>>
>>I already said the platforms at Mallaig need SDO for 7-car trains (and
>>quite likely the forward doors on the next carriage).
>
>Would there be a business case to change the maximum length of the
>train to 6-car if this would result in significant savings in the cost
>of modifications?

Seems unlikely as the reduction in capacity would cost a lot in reduced
fares revenue.

Also, it has a stop scheduled at Glenfinnian, and I don't off-hand know
the platform length there (or at Fort William).
--
Roland Perry

In message <SbZiN.63822$Sl64.25878@fx09.ams1>, at 17:31:30 on Wed, 27
Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Dec 2023 16:35:36 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <umgq6r$3scal$2@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:23 on Wed, 27 Dec
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The most common system for Mk 1 -style doors is a magnetic system fitted at
>>>> the bottom of the door - used on ATW/CT bubble car DMUs, SWT EMUs on the
>>>> Lymington branch, Swanage Railway DMU for services to Wareham, and perhaps
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>> In addition to the mechanism fitted to each door, you will need an
>>>> indicator light on the bodyside of each vehicle, external and internal
>>>> override switches (how many?), two jumper sockets and some cabling to join
>>>> them all together. Presumably there will also be a battery and a control
>>>> unit on each vehicle too. As for control panels, the mainline convention is
>>>> two panels per vehicle on opposite corners (with a few exceptions);
>>>> however, if the WCRC stock will only ever call at stations long enough to
>>>> hold the whole train, i.e. no requirement for Selective Door Operation
>>>> (SDO), then it's possible that they might be able to have control panels in
>>>> the guard's vehicle only.
>>>
>>> I already said the platforms at Mallaig need SDO for 7-car trains (and
>>> quite likely the forward doors on the next carriage).
>>
>> Would there be a business case to change the maximum length of the
>> train to 6-car if this would result in significant savings in the cost
>> of modifications?
>
>No, because WCRC charter trains often serve stations with relatively short
>platforms that don't normally see full-length long distance trains. By the
>time you have a steam loco, tender, support coach, staff coach, and kitchen
>car, that's quite a length to add on to, say, 8-10 passenger/buffet
>coaches.

In the general case, yes. Ely has quite a long platform, but still has
charter trains which don't fit. Before the level crossing closed,
anyway, whose presence meant the loco/tender/staff_coach couldn't be off
the north end of the down platform.
--
Roland Perry