On 09/11/2022 10:04, Brian Gaff wrote:

> How is this different to economy 7?

The difference is that you eat, shower and wash your clothes when the
energy company says you can.

--
Max Demian

On 8 Nov 2022 at 11:17:00 GMT, alan_m wrote:

> On 08/11/2022 11:04, RJH wrote:
>> I think there was a post on this recently? Anyway, just noticed this from my
>> supplier:
>>
>> https://community.eonnext.com/threads/5866-Energy-Shift-Announcement-on-National-Grid-Demand-Flexibility-Service
>>
>> --
>> So some of you may have seen recently in the news that National Grid will be
>> enabling energy suppliers to invite their customers to scale back their energy
>> usage during peak times of the day, and be rewarded with account credit should
>> you be able to do so, here's a little more info on this, as well as what we're
>> calling this, and how it works!
>>
>> Introducing...
>>
>> Energy Shift
>>
>> E.ON Next will be participating in the National Grid Demand Flexibility
>> Service with our aptly named 'Energy Shift' scheme.
>>
>> As long as you have a Smart Meter, and your settings for your meter reading
>> data is set to 'half-hourly' you could be invited to take part in the initial
>> roll out of this scheme which will run over the winter period.
>>
>> --
>> continues . . .
>>
>
> Octopus announced this a couple of weeks ago. You sign up, they send you
> and email saying when this to happen and they monitor your 30 minute
> readings from you smart meter to determine if a reduction in usage has
> been made.
>
> https://octopus.energy/saving-sessions/
>
> Quote
> We'd expect an average home's rewards over winter to be worth around £36
> overall, but could be up to £100.
> /Quote

There's a fair bit of small print with Eon. You have to set readings to 30
minutes (mine weren't, by default), and opt in to some marketing option. Then,
they have to deem you suitable. Not holding my breath . . .
--
Cheers, Rob, Sheffield UK

On 10 Nov 2022 11:13:55 GMT, Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:

>Chris Hogg <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Nov 2022 09:39:44 +0000, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> The BBC got into the act this morning Thur 10th Nov
>>>
>> Switching off *ALL* your electricity use for the designated period?
>> What, like throwing the main switch on the CU? Do they really expect
>> to get any takers for that, with people groping their way around cold
>> houses in the dark with torches, candles, camping stoves etc? Surely
>> not.
>>
>
>No, just reporters getting it wrong.
>
>Tim

Ah yes, you did say the BBC.

It amazes me, a gap filler between programmes that the beeb has
started running, claiming how carefully they check and verify their
reports. That claim is in itself clear evidence that they don't!

--
Chris

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
> Brian Gaff wrote

>> How is this different to economy 7?

> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
> energy company says you can.

No, when the energy company says they will charge you
less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.

The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.

On 10/11/2022 10:18, alan_m wrote:
> On 10/11/2022 10:12, SteveW wrote:
>
>> It's certainly not what it was originally suggested to be - which was
>> moving heavy use (washing, drying, cooking, dishwashing, electric
>> heating, etc.) outside the peak demand period.
>>
>
> I was just commenting on the way uneducated Journalists at the BBC
> inform the public about the scheme!

The "scheme" such as it is has not been communicated well.

The rules are totally opaque and only a handful of suppliers have
actually signed up to them. My supplier SSE hasn't but I am loathe to
move until my fixed price contract is up.

Even if everyone with a smart meter signed up and played exactly by the
rules it would only result in 3M homes out of ~20M being on the deal.

Savings depend on how many people do their washing or tumble dry at peak
use times of day. I know that we do not so would be paid to do nothing.

Not much you can do about cooking supper when you get home (although
slow cookers are available stew every day quickly gets a bit boring).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/11/2022 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/11/2022 10:18, alan_m wrote:
>> On 10/11/2022 10:12, SteveW wrote:
>>
>>> It's certainly not what it was originally suggested to be - which was
>>> moving heavy use (washing, drying, cooking, dishwashing, electric
>>> heating, etc.) outside the peak demand period.
>>
>> I was just commenting on the way uneducated Journalists at the BBC
>> inform the public about the scheme!
>>
>>
> Fucking ArtStudents™

The rules of the new scheme are far from clear and adoption of it pretty
haphazard with very few big suppliers signed up.

> Burn them for fuel.

You will like this one then:

https://dilbert.com/strip/2001-03-29

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 10/11/2022 11:09, N_Cook wrote:
> On 10/11/2022 09:57, Chris Hogg wrote:
>> Switching off*ALL*  your electricity use for the designated period?
>> What, like throwing the main switch on the CU? Do they really expect
>> to get any takers for that, with people groping their way around cold
>> houses in the dark with torches, candles, camping stoves etc? Surely
>> not.
>
> How many electronic clocks would the average householder have to reset?
IIRC ALL of mine carry on for at leasts a few hours - presumably the
clocks are battery or capacitor backed.
I suspect the water softening recycle timing would be lost. So what?

> plus some kit drops into factory reset .
That's only railway locomotives

> Of course how many people on low incomes will be moving onto "smart"
> meters after the news yesterday. Well it was news to me , that along
> with read and WRITE function on them so they can write whatever their
> shareholders demand, in effect, they can remotely switch you to
> prepayment mode at the click of a switch at their end .
>
Guess why I refused to have one.
--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 11/11/2022 11:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 10/11/2022 11:09, N_Cook wrote:
>> On 10/11/2022 09:57, Chris Hogg wrote:
>>> Switching off*ALL* your electricity use for the designated period?
>>> What, like throwing the main switch on the CU? Do they really expect
>>> to get any takers for that, with people groping their way around cold
>>> houses in the dark with torches, candles, camping stoves etc? Surely
>>> not.
>>
>> How many electronic clocks would the average householder have to reset?
> IIRC ALL of mine carry on for at leasts a few hours - presumably the
> clocks are battery or capacitor backed.
> I suspect the water softening recycle timing would be lost. So what?
>
>> plus some kit drops into factory reset .
> That's only railway locomotives
>
>> Of course how many people on low incomes will be moving onto "smart"
>> meters after the news yesterday. Well it was news to me , that along
>> with read and WRITE function on them so they can write whatever their
>> shareholders demand, in effect, they can remotely switch you to
>> prepayment mode at the click of a switch at their end .
>>
> Guess why I refused to have one.

You've only got to look at post office Horizon software structure that
deliberately did not allow daily hard copy for each counter operation
but did allow remote access by head-office fraudsters to manipulate
"records" on individual counter units without the operator knowing.
Where such systems are ,in place , the corrupt will use them to their
advantage, its simple human nature.

--
Global sea level rise to 2100 from curve-fitted existing altimetry data
<http://diverse.4mg.com/slr.htm>

N_Cook wrote:

> Chris Hogg wrote:
>
>> Switching off*ALL*  your electricity use for the designated period?
>> What, like throwing the main switch on the CU? Do they really expect
>> to get any takers for that
>
> How many electronic clocks would the average householder have to reset?

And all those alarms with fucked batteries constantly going off?

On Fri, 11 Nov 2022 19:32:14 +1100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

> On 10/11/2022 10:18, alan_m wrote:
>> On 10/11/2022 10:12, SteveW wrote:
>>
>>> It's certainly not what it was originally suggested to be - which was
>>> moving heavy use (washing, drying, cooking, dishwashing, electric
>>> heating, etc.) outside the peak demand period.
>>>
>> I was just commenting on the way uneducated Journalists at the BBC
>> inform the public about the scheme!
>
> The "scheme" such as it is has not been communicated well.
>
> The rules are totally opaque and only a handful of suppliers have
> actually signed up to them. My supplier SSE hasn't but I am loathe to
> move until my fixed price contract is up.
>
> Even if everyone with a smart meter signed up and played exactly by the
> rules it would only result in 3M homes out of ~20M being on the deal.
>
> Savings depend on how many people do their washing or tumble dry at peak
> use times of day. I know that we do not so would be paid to do nothing.
>
> Not much you can do about cooking supper when you get home (although
> slow cookers are available stew every day quickly gets a bit boring).

They don't just do stew.

On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>> Brian Gaff wrote
>
>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>
>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>> energy company says you can.
>
> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.

I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life. I
decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
anyone else.

> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.

You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
would be annoying.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>> Brian Gaff wrote
>>
>>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>>
>>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>>> energy company says you can.
>>
>> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
>> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.
>
> I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life. I
> decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
> anyone else.
>

You can do all that. Of course you could save money, and maybe even get a
“refund” by reducing your consumption when the cost to the grid is very
high but no one is cutting your power off. What is becoming hard to ignore
is the reality that power costs are increasingly volatile and that variable
time of day tariffs are here to stay. Still, you can still use power
whenever you want, for a price.

>> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
>> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.
>
> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
> would be annoying.
>

Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.
My off peak is less than a fifth of my peak rate. I can put up with a
washing machine running at night for that size of discount. Besides, most
modern machines are way quieter than older ones.

Still, good luck with your “ostrich approach” to coping with your power
bills.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
> > You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
> > I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
> > heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
> > would be annoying.
> >
>
> Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.

Huh? My economy 7 is around half price overnight and always has been.

Currently day is 40.703p/kwh and night is - 19.922p/kwh.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Tim+ <tim.downie@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
>>> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
>>> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
>>> would be annoying.
>>>
>>
>> Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.
>
> Huh? My economy 7 is around half price overnight and always has been.
>
> Currently day is 40.703p/kwh and night is - 19.922p/kwh.
>

Mine 38 vs 7.1 (plus VAT). Only 4 hours though, but it does make for a
strong incentive to load shift.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Sat, 12 Nov 2022 04:58:26 +1100, Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

> On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>> Brian Gaff wrote
>>
>>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>>
>>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>>> energy company says you can.

>> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
>> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.

> I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life.

Then you get to wear the higher energy costs.

> I decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
> anyone else.

Then you get to wear the higher energy costs.

>> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
>> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.

> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
> would be annoying.

I can't even hear mine when I am sitting at the computer and the
bedroom is twice as far away from the washing machine as that.

At one time I used to be able to hear the dishwasher when in bed but could
sleep thru that fine, but can't hear it anymore with the much quieter
Bosch.

On 11/11/2022 19:20, Tim+ wrote:
> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>> On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>>> Brian Gaff wrote
>>>
>>>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>>>
>>>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>>>> energy company says you can.
>>>
>>> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
>>> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.
>>
>> I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life. I
>> decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
>> anyone else.
>>
>
> You can do all that. Of course you could save money, and maybe even get a
> “refund” by reducing your consumption when the cost to the grid is very
> high but no one is cutting your power off. What is becoming hard to ignore
> is the reality that power costs are increasingly volatile and that variable
> time of day tariffs are here to stay. Still, you can still use power
> whenever you want, for a price.

Which is, of course, a problem for families with young children, where
the evening meal needs to be cooked and maybe the kids showered and off
to bed beofore the cheaper hours start.

Luckily, we are well beyond that stage, but some years ago, it would
have been a real problem for us.

>>> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
>>> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.
>>
>> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
>> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
>> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
>> would be annoying.
>>
>
> Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.
> My off peak is less than a fifth of my peak rate. I can put up with a
> washing machine running at night for that size of discount. Besides, most
> modern machines are way quieter than older ones.

I've certainly been impressed by the machine we bought about 18 months
ago. It is direct drive and incredibly quiet. We can be taling in the
kitchen and we have to look at the display to see if it is still
running. Even spin is quiet enough that you don't need to raise your
voice at all.

From upstairs we can't tell it is running at all.

> Still, good luck with your “ostrich approach” to coping with your power
> bills.

One problem is that shifting washing until later means having to tstay
up later to transfer it to the dryer, or it'll not be ready for the
morning - and most people don't have multiple items of school uniform spare.

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> On 11/11/2022 19:20, Tim+ wrote:
>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>>>> Brian Gaff wrote
>>>>
>>>>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>>>>
>>>>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>>>>> energy company says you can.
>>>>
>>>> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
>>>> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.
>>>
>>> I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life. I
>>> decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
>>> anyone else.
>>>
>>
>> You can do all that. Of course you could save money, and maybe even get a
>> “refund” by reducing your consumption when the cost to the grid is very
>> high but no one is cutting your power off. What is becoming hard to ignore
>> is the reality that power costs are increasingly volatile and that variable
>> time of day tariffs are here to stay. Still, you can still use power
>> whenever you want, for a price.
>
> Which is, of course, a problem for families with young children, where
> the evening meal needs to be cooked and maybe the kids showered and off
> to bed beofore the cheaper hours start.
>
> Luckily, we are well beyond that stage, but some years ago, it would
> have been a real problem for us.
>
>>>> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
>>>> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.
>>>
>>> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
>>> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
>>> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
>>> would be annoying.
>>>
>>
>> Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.
>> My off peak is less than a fifth of my peak rate. I can put up with a
>> washing machine running at night for that size of discount. Besides, most
>> modern machines are way quieter than older ones.
>
> I've certainly been impressed by the machine we bought about 18 months
> ago. It is direct drive and incredibly quiet. We can be taling in the
> kitchen and we have to look at the display to see if it is still
> running. Even spin is quiet enough that you don't need to raise your
> voice at all.
>
> From upstairs we can't tell it is running at all.
>
>> Still, good luck with your “ostrich approach” to coping with your power
>> bills.
>
> One problem is that shifting washing until later means having to tstay
> up later to transfer it to the dryer, or it'll not be ready for the
> morning - and most people don't have multiple items of school uniform spare.
>

It’s only on days and times of high peak demand/cost to the grid that it’s
proposed to offer discounts for avoiding peak time usage, not a daily
occurrence.

Anyone who needs to use power at peak times can choose an appropriate
tariff that suits their usage pattern.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 12/11/2022 07:35, Tim+ wrote:
> SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/11/2022 19:20, Tim+ wrote:
>>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2022 19:35, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>>> Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote
>>>>>> Brian Gaff wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is this different to economy 7?
>>>>>
>>>>>> The difference is that you eat, shower and wash yourclothes when the
>>>>>> energy company says you can.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, when the energy company says they will charge you
>>>>> less when you do that stuff when energy is cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want the energy company to have such influence on my life. I
>>>> decide when I cook, eat or use the washing machine, without involving
>>>> anyone else.
>>>>
>>>
>>> You can do all that. Of course you could save money, and maybe even get a
>>> “refund” by reducing your consumption when the cost to the grid is very
>>> high but no one is cutting your power off. What is becoming hard to ignore
>>> is the reality that power costs are increasingly volatile and that variable
>>> time of day tariffs are here to stay. Still, you can still use power
>>> whenever you want, for a price.
>>
>> Which is, of course, a problem for families with young children, where
>> the evening meal needs to be cooked and maybe the kids showered and off
>> to bed beofore the cheaper hours start.
>>
>> Luckily, we are well beyond that stage, but some years ago, it would
>> have been a real problem for us.
>>
>>>>> The big difference with Economy 7 is that it is no
>>>>> longer just a fixed time in the middle of the night.
>>>>
>>>> You know where you are with that. When I lived in a place with Economy 7
>>>> I only used off-peak for the storage heater and whole tank immersion
>>>> heater. I didn't run the washing machine at night. I expect the noise
>>>> would be annoying.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Economy 7 generally offered only a fairly small discount proportionally.
>>> My off peak is less than a fifth of my peak rate. I can put up with a
>>> washing machine running at night for that size of discount. Besides, most
>>> modern machines are way quieter than older ones.
>>
>> I've certainly been impressed by the machine we bought about 18 months
>> ago. It is direct drive and incredibly quiet. We can be taling in the
>> kitchen and we have to look at the display to see if it is still
>> running. Even spin is quiet enough that you don't need to raise your
>> voice at all.
>>
>> From upstairs we can't tell it is running at all.
>>
>>> Still, good luck with your “ostrich approach” to coping with your power
>>> bills.
>>
>> One problem is that shifting washing until later means having to tstay
>> up later to transfer it to the dryer, or it'll not be ready for the
>> morning - and most people don't have multiple items of school uniform spare.
>>
>
> It’s only on days and times of high peak demand/cost to the grid that it’s
> proposed to offer discounts for avoiding peak time usage, not a daily
> occurrence.
>
> Anyone who needs to use power at peak times can choose an appropriate
> tariff that suits their usage pattern.

Yes, but once everyone has smart meters, instead of building enough
nuclear power stations, they will throttle peak demand by ensuring that
all tariffs are high at peak time. A cheap and easy bodge (like Smart
motorways with no hard-shoulder), with no regard for how people actually
want (or even need) to structure their day.

On 12/11/2022 10:05, SteveW wrote:

> Yes, but once everyone has smart meters, instead of building enough
> nuclear power stations, they will throttle peak demand by ensuring that
> all tariffs are high at peak time. A cheap and easy bodge (like Smart
> motorways with no hard-shoulder), with no regard for how people actually
> want (or even need) to structure their day.
>

But soon on a very cold winter's day when the wind isn't blowing demand
will exceed capacity and we will get long power cuts. This will focus
peoples minds and they will demand enough reliable capacity.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 12/11/2022 13:00, alan_m wrote:
> On 12/11/2022 10:05, SteveW wrote:
>
>> Yes, but once everyone has smart meters, instead of building enough
>> nuclear power stations, they will throttle peak demand by ensuring
>> that all tariffs are high at peak time. A cheap and easy bodge (like
>> Smart motorways with no hard-shoulder), with no regard for how people
>> actually want (or even need) to structure their day.
>>
>
>
> But soon on a very cold winter's day when the wind isn't blowing demand
> will exceed capacity and we will get long power cuts. This will focus
> peoples minds and they will demand enough reliable capacity.
>
>
It's bloody frightening how utterly inept governments are.

They really should have their hands pried off the reins of power,
starting in Brussels.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell