Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
of the car market in 2022.

One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
the fastest.

Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
reasons were advanced.

One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and the
cost of replacement.

The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.

There was no mention of the costs of electricity.

--
Spike

The thing is all cars these days have a much larger lease footprint than
they used to, so that would mean fewer cars to be on the second hand market
until some point where people take an upgrade, at which point a lot of cars
turn up on the market at the same time, and I suspect much like mobile phone
rentals, they want you to trade up as the maintenance costs increase etc.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Spike" <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote in message
news:k0vs1mF4tfsU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
> of the car market in 2022.
>
> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
> the fastest.
>
> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
> reasons were advanced.
>
> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and
> the
> cost of replacement.
>
> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
> EVs are far superior to one's made in only the recent past.
>
> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>
> --
> Spike

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 09:26:14 +0000, Spike wrote:

> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the
> state of the car market in 2022.
>
> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
> the fastest.
>
> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two
> possible reasons were advanced.
>
> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and
> the cost of replacement.
>
> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that
> new EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>
> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.

Maybe they're crap ?

Anecdatally, a big bar is the fact that unless you have not just the
dedicated charging point at home, but also the off road space to use it,
you are going to be dependent on having to spend hours (a) looking for
and (b) charging your shiny EV. Neither of which fits in with the time-
poor lifestyle needed to pay for the beasts.

One of our directors has a Tesla. He's retired with all the time in the
world to faff around charging.

There *is* a place for EVs in society. But this isn't it. And much like
the laws of physics, you can't really buck the laws of nature generally.

On 27/12/2022 09:26, Spike wrote:
>
> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
> of the car market in 2022.
>
> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
> the fastest.
>
> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
> reasons were advanced.
>
> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and the
> cost of replacement.
>
> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>
> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>
just watch second hand ICE cars skyrocket after 2020....

Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote

> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
> of the car market in 2022.
>
> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
> the fastest.

Not what happened here in Oz with used cars. The price of
those has risen dramatically, essentially because of the very
significant delay in getting your new car delivered after you
have ordered it due to very significant shortages of semiconductors.

Not clear what has happened to the price of used EVs here,
I don't know of anyone stupid enough to own one yet.

> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two
> possible
> reasons were advanced.

> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and
> the
> cost of replacement.

> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.

> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.

Lots here have solar panels but it isnt clear how many use
them to charge their EVs for free. That's obviously only
feasible if you mostly work from home and most don't do that.

On 27/12/2022 13:22, Jim gm4dhj ... wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 09:26, Spike wrote:
>>
>> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
>> of the car market in 2022.
>>
>> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
>> the fastest.
>>
>> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two
>> possible
>> reasons were advanced.
>>
>> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life
>> and the
>> cost of replacement.
>>
>> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
>> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>>
>> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>>
> just watch second hand ICE cars skyrocket after 2020....

They did, but across the pond they have now crashed back to
2019 prices.

When did you last see that advert on the TV from
"We buy any car dot com" ?

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 21:34:57 +1100, Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com>
wrote:

> The thing is all cars these days have a much larger lease footprint than
> they used to, so that would mean fewer cars to be on the second hand
> market
> until some point where people take an upgrade, at which point a lot of
> cars
> turn up on the market at the same time, and I suspect much like mobile
> phone
> rentals, they want you to trade up as the maintenance costs increase
> etc.

I haven't found that the maintenance costs increase with my
now 17 year old petrol Hyundia Getz tho the mandatory timing
belt swap isnt cheap. Not anywhere near that yet with mine.

On 27/12/2022 16:39, Andrew wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 13:22, Jim gm4dhj ... wrote:
>> On 27/12/2022 09:26, Spike wrote:
>>>
>>> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the
>>> state
>>> of the car market in 2022.
>>>
>>> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
>>> the fastest.
>>>
>>> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two
>>> possible
>>> reasons were advanced.
>>>
>>> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life
>>> and the
>>> cost of replacement.
>>>
>>> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that
>>> new
>>> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>>>
>>> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>>>
>> just watch second hand ICE cars skyrocket after 2020....
>
> They did, but across the pond they have now crashed back to
> 2019 prices.
>
> When did you last see that advert on the TV from
> "We buy any car dot com" ?
sorry I meant 2030

why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
and not a round number ?

On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
> and not a round number ?

It is a round number.

£1 for the charity and £18.07 for collection expenses and for the third
party fund raising company.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 27/12/2022 16:39, Andrew wrote:

> They did, but across the pond they have now crashed back to
> 2019 prices.

Judging by some of the Youtube videos I've been watching lately both the
second hand car and smaller commercial vehicle market prices in the USA
have been high in Autumn and run up to Xmas.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 27/12/2022 17:55, alan_m wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>> and not a round number ?
>
> It is a round number.
>
> £1 for the charity and £18.07 for collection expenses and for the third
> party fund raising company.
>
haaaaaaaaaaaaa

On 27/12/2022 17:55, alan_m wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>> and not a round number ?
>
> It is a round number.
>
> £1 for the charity and £18.07 for collection expenses and for the third
> party fund raising company.
>
So they can track the success of the adverts ??

On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
> and not a round number ?

Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats, penguins?
I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just fight all the time

On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>> and not a round number ?
>
> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
> bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats, penguins?
> I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just fight all the time

But don't forget they are creating lots of employment in far east sweat
shops making those cuddly toys they send to you. You have to applaud
these organisations for teaching the animals English so that they can
write to you informing you on how they are getting on, and begging for
more money.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>
> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
> of the car market in 2022.
>
> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
> the fastest.
>
> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
> reasons were advanced.
>
> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and the
> cost of replacement.
>
> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>
> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.

I think this is the source article:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-used-car-price-bubble-pops-weighs-new-car-demand-2022-12-27/

It's not about used EVs but Teslas specifically. Neither of the points
above hold for them: battery longevity is excellent for Teslas (90-95%
capacity at 10 years plus) and Tesla haven't released a new model for
several years, so latest-and-greatest doesn't really apply.

The article is citing data from the US where EV supply has been very
limited. Typically Americans buy new cars from dealer stock, whereas since
the pandemic supplies have dried up and dealers have had enormous markups.
To get an EV requires ordering one and waiting months. People have been
ordering them and then reselling them on delivery at a markup. That
artificially inflated the 'used' prices. As supply chain woes have eased,
delivery times have reduced and such flipping is less attractive.

As well as other EVs becoming old enough to enter the used market, another
factor is that Musk's antics at Twitter have devalued Tesla, both from a
shareholder point of view (investors don't have confidence in Musk running
Tesla well and not being distracted) but also tarnished Tesla as a luxury
brand (Tesla was always erratic on things like aftermarket service and
supply of spare parts and any uncertainty doesn't encourage confidence).
That means fewer people are willing to consider a Tesla as their next car,
which depresses used prices.

Those are both market bumps and nothing to do with EVs per se.

Theo
(whose car is 16 and still worth more than I paid for it 6 years ago, so the
UK used market remains crazy)

On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>> and not a round number ?
>
> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
> bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats, penguins?
> I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just fight all the time
Donkeys are so cool .......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpo7hVxC0mU

On 28/12/2022 08:49, Theo wrote:
> Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
>> of the car market in 2022.
>>
>> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
>> the fastest.
>>
>> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
>> reasons were advanced.
>>
>> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and the
>> cost of replacement.
>>
>> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
>> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>>
>> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>
> I think this is the source article:
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-used-car-price-bubble-pops-weighs-new-car-demand-2022-12-27/
>
> It's not about used EVs but Teslas specifically. Neither of the points
> above hold for them: battery longevity is excellent for Teslas (90-95%
> capacity at 10 years plus) and Tesla haven't released a new model for
> several years, so latest-and-greatest doesn't really apply.
>
> The article is citing data from the US where EV supply has been very
> limited. Typically Americans buy new cars from dealer stock, whereas since
> the pandemic supplies have dried up and dealers have had enormous markups.
> To get an EV requires ordering one and waiting months. People have been
> ordering them and then reselling them on delivery at a markup. That
> artificially inflated the 'used' prices. As supply chain woes have eased,
> delivery times have reduced and such flipping is less attractive.
>
> As well as other EVs becoming old enough to enter the used market, another
> factor is that Musk's antics at Twitter have devalued Tesla, both from a
> shareholder point of view (investors don't have confidence in Musk running
> Tesla well and not being distracted) but also tarnished Tesla as a luxury
> brand (Tesla was always erratic on things like aftermarket service and
> supply of spare parts and any uncertainty doesn't encourage confidence).
> That means fewer people are willing to consider a Tesla as their next car,
> which depresses used prices.
>
> Those are both market bumps and nothing to do with EVs per se.
>
> Theo
> (whose car is 16 and still worth more than I paid for it 6 years ago, so the
> UK used market remains crazy)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=217hY1YFFws

On 28/12/2022 09:07, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>>> and not a round number ?
>>
>> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
>> bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats,
>> penguins? I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just
>> fight all the time
> Donkeys are so cool .......
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpo7hVxC0mU

Which third world country is that?

On 28/12/2022 09:34, Richard wrote:
> On 28/12/2022 09:07, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>>> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on
>>>> tv and not a round number ?
>>>
>>> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
>>> bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats,
>>> penguins? I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just
>>> fight all the time
>> Donkeys are so cool .......
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpo7hVxC0mU
>
> Which third world country is that?
Ayrshire.....

On Tue, 27 Dec 2022 17:20:43 +0000, jim.gm4dhj wrote:

> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
> and not a round number ?

Already m'boy, good little earner.

On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on tv
>> and not a round number ?
>
> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales, polar
> bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats, penguins?
> I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just fight all the time]

I built a pen in the garden, watched them fight it out and ate the last
pet standing
--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Spike <Aero.Spike@mail.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Business news on the radio this morning contained an item about the state
>> of the car market in 2022.
>>
>> One surprise was a comment that of all used cars, EV values were falling
>> the fastest.
>>
>> Although the reasons for this state of affairs was not known, two possible
>> reasons were advanced.
>>
>> One was the concern by owners of three-year-old EVs of battery life and the
>> cost of replacement.
>>
>> The second was that technology has moved on so fast in that time that new
>> EVs are far superior to one’s made in only the recent past.
>>
>> There was no mention of the costs of electricity.
>
> I think this is the source article:
>
> https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-used-car-price-bubble-pops-weighs-new-car-demand-2022-12-27/
>
> It's not about used EVs but Teslas specifically. Neither of the points
> above hold for them: battery longevity is excellent for Teslas (90-95%
> capacity at 10 years plus) and Tesla haven't released a new model for
> several years, so latest-and-greatest doesn't really apply.
>
> The article is citing data from the US where EV supply has been very
> limited. Typically Americans buy new cars from dealer stock, whereas since
> the pandemic supplies have dried up and dealers have had enormous markups.
> To get an EV requires ordering one and waiting months. People have been
> ordering them and then reselling them on delivery at a markup. That
> artificially inflated the 'used' prices. As supply chain woes have eased,
> delivery times have reduced and such flipping is less attractive.
>
> As well as other EVs becoming old enough to enter the used market, another
> factor is that Musk's antics at Twitter have devalued Tesla, both from a
> shareholder point of view (investors don't have confidence in Musk running
> Tesla well and not being distracted) but also tarnished Tesla as a luxury
> brand (Tesla was always erratic on things like aftermarket service and
> supply of spare parts and any uncertainty doesn't encourage confidence).
> That means fewer people are willing to consider a Tesla as their next car,
> which depresses used prices.
>
> Those are both market bumps and nothing to do with EVs per se.
>
> Theo
> (whose car is 16 and still worth more than I paid for it 6 years ago, so the
> UK used market remains crazy)

Thanks. I was aware of the Tesla issue of owners turning away from the make
because of Musk’s recently expressed political views, from a business news
report a week or two ago.

The item I referred to was another business news report on the radio, but
it was only a day or two ago and was addressing the UK car market.

As I said above, the reasons for this slump in the value of second-hand EVs
weren’t known to the interviewee, so remain somewhat speculative.

--
Spike

On 28/12/2022 09:47, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
> On 28/12/2022 09:34, Richard wrote:
>> On 28/12/2022 09:07, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>> On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>>>> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on
>>>>> tv and not a round number ?
>>>>
>>>> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales,
>>>> polar bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats,
>>>> penguins? I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just
>>>> fight all the time
>>> Donkeys are so cool .......
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpo7hVxC0mU
>>
>> Which third world country is that?
> Ayrshire.....

Visit the New Forest to see donkeys that are not living in such desolation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99RgAA_Xu30

On 28/12/2022 11:17, Richard wrote:
> On 28/12/2022 09:47, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>> On 28/12/2022 09:34, Richard wrote:
>>> On 28/12/2022 09:07, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>> On 27/12/2022 20:29, Harry Bloomfield Esq wrote:
>>>>> On 27/12/2022 17:20, jim.gm4dhj wrote:
>>>>>> why do charity spongers ask for nineteen pounds and seven pence on
>>>>>> tv and not a round number ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why do the spongers, suggest you adopt so many animals, whales,
>>>>> polar bears, lions, tigers, donkeys, elephants, horses, dogs, cats,
>>>>> penguins? I adopted them all, put them in my garage, but they just
>>>>> fight all the time
>>>> Donkeys are so cool .......
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpo7hVxC0mU
>>>
>>> Which third world country is that?
>> Ayrshire.....
>
> Visit the New Forest to see donkeys that are not living in such desolation.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99RgAA_Xu30
what desolation ? ....