On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
> In article <t8792i$6l5$3@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> My problem is replacing my 27" iMac! My workflow is now dependant on
>> having that amount of screen space and the 24" models don't really hack it.
>
> mac studio + 27" studio display or even better, a 32" xdr display.

Agreed but at what cost?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
> In article <t878tr$6l5$2@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>
>>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last time I
>>> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black paper
>>> using
>>> white ink.
>>>
>>
>> From observation (my regular bus route into town goes through the
>> university) it is very popular with the younger generation who don't
>> even remember computer screens being black with green text.
>
> or amber.

You are older than you look :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 13/06/2022 14:45, TimS wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2022 at 13:00:59 BST, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 12/06/2022 22:01, TimS wrote:
>>> On 12 Jun 2022 at 21:48:39 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <jgmpjjF2r4mU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12 Jun 2022 at 10:28:02 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all - I have a 27"iMac, late 2013, 16GB RAM, 3.2 GHz Intel Core i5.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been running Mojave for a few years now, and think it's possibly
>>>>>> high time I moved to a more recent OS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Um, why? I'll be sticking with Mojave for as long as I can.
>>>>
>>>> Hm. Good question. Having read what Neill has said:
>>>>
>>>>> As far as the user experience is concerned, there isn't a lot of difference
>>>>> between Catalina, Big Sur, and Monterey. In spite of all the "incredible" gush
>>>>> from Tm Cook et al, the new features in macOS these days are very marginal. I
>>>>> only upgrade to keep current with the security measures.
>>>>
>>>> ... I'm now not sure sure that I want to update. Neill's point about the
>>>> security updates is the main reason.
>>>> Another one is to get rid of Apple's nagging me to update (but I've put
>>>> up with that for a year or two, and anyway I think they've given up
>>>> nagging, now).
>>>>
>>>> Neill's point that there's isn't much difference between Catalina, Big
>>>> Sure and Monterey (which implies to me that there _is_ a difference
>>>> between Mojave and Catalina) .... it all adds up to falling in with your
>>>> policy Tim -- if it ain't broke, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps I should wait until I decide I need to afford a brand new Mac,
>>>> in a year or two....
>>>
>>> At which point you won't have the choice, sad to say. Last year I did buy an
>>> Intel Mini for SWMBO which in theory should have been the same model as mine,
>>> but it came with BS and I was unable to force Mojave onto it (perhaps someone
>>> more expert than I could have done it). Changes since then don't amount to
>>> much more than UI changes for the sake of it. And shitty they are, too.
>>>
>>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last time I
>>> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black paper using
>>> white ink.
>>
>> From observation (my regular bus route into town goes through the
>> university) it is very popular with the younger generation who don't
>> even remember computer screens being black with green text.
>
> Goths, probably.
>

Don't think the Chinese do Goth. (Lots of Chinese students at Surrey Uni)

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 13/06/2022 15:05, Richard Tobin wrote:
> In article <t878tr$6l5$2@dont-email.me>,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> From observation (my regular bus route into town goes through the
>> university) it is very popular with the younger generation who don't
>> even remember computer screens being black with green text.
>
> The ones I used in the 70s were all white-on-black, which had the
> advantage that they could also be used as monitors for CCTV etc and
> even show text superimposed on a black-and-white video image.
>

The green ones were, apparently, because they could deliver a brighter
picture in daylight. Some of the early hand-held tv cameras used them
for viewfinders for that reason.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In article <t87hbk$96s$1@macpro.inf.ed.ac.uk>, Richard Tobin
<richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> >> The ones I used in the 70s were all white-on-black, which had the
> >> advantage that they could also be used as monitors for CCTV etc and
> >> even show text superimposed on a black-and-white video image.
>
> >that's a function of the hardware, not the phosphor.
>
> Displaying a black-and-white image is obviously dependent on the
> phospor.

you described using it for cctv, which is not.

In article <t87hi4$tq$1@alanrichardbarker.eternal-september.org>, Alan
B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:

> Is Apple in the process of dropping the iMac range or has it something
> special in mind later this year?

nobody outside of a very small number of people inside apple know.

that said, a mac studio with either a studio display or pro xdr display
appears to have replaced the imac pro and even the mac pro in many
tasks.

In article <t87nos$nps$5@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> The green ones were, apparently, because they could deliver a brighter
> picture in daylight. Some of the early hand-held tv cameras used them
> for viewfinders for that reason.

it's because the human eye is most sensitive to green, which is one
reason why the sensors on digital cameras normally have two green
sensels in a 2x2 bayer matrix. there are a few variants, which don't
have much of an advantage.

On 13/06/2022 17:27, nospam wrote:
> In article <t87nos$nps$5@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The green ones were, apparently, because they could deliver a brighter
>> picture in daylight. Some of the early hand-held tv cameras used them
>> for viewfinders for that reason.
>
> it's because the human eye is most sensitive to green,

So subjectively brighter.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:

> On 12 Jun 2022 at 21:48:39 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <jgmpjjF2r4mU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>
>
> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last time I
> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black paper using
> white ink.

I would have said that up to a couple of years ago. But then I got floaters in my eyes. It is now difficult to read normal black on white, that includes newspapers and books, it is much easier and less of a strain to use dark mode.
--
Mark

On 13/06/2022 19:02, Mark Bestley wrote:
> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
>
>> On 12 Jun 2022 at 21:48:39 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <jgmpjjF2r4mU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last time I
>> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black paper using
>> white ink.
>
> I would have said that up to a couple of years ago. But then I got floaters in my eyes. It is now difficult to read normal black on white, that includes newspapers and books, it is much easier and less of a strain to use dark mode.

Interesting, hadn't thought of that aspect.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last time I
> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black paper using
> white ink.

My books don't tend to glow in the dark, not sure about yours.

I much prefer dark mode - more restful on the eyes, since they aren't having
to take in excess white light, which is important especially at night. It
is more effective now that displays have got good at having decent black
levels, rather than the backlight bleeding through to a murky grey like they
used to. Plus OLED displays are black when turned off, so dark mode is the
natural for those (phones in particular). Some OLED phones go into a low power
state where the display is dark except for the clock and similar - there's a
rumour this will be on the iPhone 14.

Sadly it's often blown out of the water by web pages which are black text on
white background. Some sites have themes, but relatively few.

Theo

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
> > In article <t8792i$6l5$3@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> > <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> My problem is replacing my 27" iMac! My workflow is now dependant on
> >> having that amount of screen space and the 24" models don't really hack it.
> >
> > mac studio + 27" studio display or even better, a 32" xdr display.
>
> Agreed but at what cost?

Mac Mini + non-Apple display?

(Mac purists may tell you it *must* be 5K, but Macs will happily rescale to
a non 2:1 pixel density. You may find a 4K panel with a slightly lower
pixel density plus rescaling is sharp enough)

Theo

On 13/06/2022 19:48, Theo wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
>>> In article <t8792i$6l5$3@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My problem is replacing my 27" iMac! My workflow is now dependant on
>>>> having that amount of screen space and the 24" models don't really hack it.
>>>
>>> mac studio + 27" studio display or even better, a 32" xdr display.
>>
>> Agreed but at what cost?
>
> Mac Mini + non-Apple display?
>
> (Mac purists may tell you it *must* be 5K, but Macs will happily rescale to
> a non 2:1 pixel density. You may find a 4K panel with a slightly lower
> pixel density plus rescaling is sharp enough)
>

Is the route that I'm looking to go down, still quite a pricey option. I
estimate it as being about a third more expensive, going back to the
price differentials between the two iMacs when I bought mine.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 13/06/2022 19:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 13/06/2022 19:02, Mark Bestley wrote:
>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
>>
>>> On 12 Jun 2022 at 21:48:39 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article <jgmpjjF2r4mU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>   TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last
>>> time I
>>> read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black
>>> paper using
>>> white ink.
>>
>> I would have said that up to a couple of years ago. But then I got
>> floaters in my eyes. It is now difficult to read normal black on
>> white, that includes newspapers and books, it is much easier and less
>> of a strain to use dark mode.
>
> Interesting, hadn't thought of that aspect.

Something I've been getting over the last few years too. It's
noticeable, but I can still manage to edit photos and read small text.

However, I would prefer it if it were possible to change it on an app by
app basis (although I know you can for some if they include the option).

I find it is preferable to have the dark mode for some things (Photos is
one, although that does use a dark background when editing, but the
switch from light to dark suddenly is not great), but not others (like
Maps, that's just unusable in dark mode).

To be fair, it's quite common for magazines to have light on dark
blocks. However, I'd also say it's a different matter reading a
reflective media compared to a backlit media.

--
Andy H

On 13 Jun 2022 at 20:45:37 BST, Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

> On 13/06/2022 19:16, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 13/06/2022 19:02, Mark Bestley wrote:
>>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 12 Jun 2022 at 21:48:39 BST, Another John <lalaw44@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <jgmpjjF2r4mU1@mid.individual.net>,
>>>>> TimS <timstreater@greenbee.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>>>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last
>>>> time I read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black
>>>> paper using white ink.
>>>
>>> I would have said that up to a couple of years ago. But then I got
>>> floaters in my eyes. It is now difficult to read normal black on
>>> white, that includes newspapers and books, it is much easier and less
>>> of a strain to use dark mode.
>>
>> Interesting, hadn't thought of that aspect.
>
> Something I've been getting over the last few years too. It's
> noticeable, but I can still manage to edit photos and read small text.

> To be fair, it's quite common for magazines to have light on dark
> blocks.

That's pure affectation on their part; I tend to avoid such.

--
Tim

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 13/06/2022 19:48, Theo wrote:
> > Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
> >>> In article <t8792i$6l5$3@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
> >>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My problem is replacing my 27" iMac! My workflow is now dependant on
> >>>> having that amount of screen space and the 24" models don't really hack it.
> >>>
> >>> mac studio + 27" studio display or even better, a 32" xdr display.
> >>
> >> Agreed but at what cost?
> >
> > Mac Mini + non-Apple display?
> >
> > (Mac purists may tell you it *must* be 5K, but Macs will happily rescale to
> > a non 2:1 pixel density. You may find a 4K panel with a slightly lower
> > pixel density plus rescaling is sharp enough)
> >
>
> Is the route that I'm looking to go down, still quite a pricey option. I
> estimate it as being about a third more expensive, going back to the
> price differentials between the two iMacs when I bought mine.

What vintage of iMac is it, btw? Not one that supports Target Display mode
by any chance? You could use it as an external display with a new Mac mini.
https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204592

(if you have a newer iMac there are software workarounds that aren't as
good)

Theo

On 13/06/2022 21:57, TimS wrote:
> On 13 Jun 2022 at 20:45:37 BST, Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

>>>>> And then there's the Dark Mode bollocks, another solution looking for a
>>>>> problem. I dislike this since I have difficulty remembering the last
>>>>> time I read a book, a newspaper, or a magazine which was printed on black
>>>>> paper using white ink.

>> To be fair, it's quite common for magazines to have light on dark
>> blocks.
>
> That's pure affectation on their part; I tend to avoid such.

I was only pointing out that such thing existed! ;-)

--
Andy H

On 13/06/2022 22:36, Theo wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 13/06/2022 19:48, Theo wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 13/06/2022 13:10, nospam wrote:
>>>>> In article <t8792i$6l5$3@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> My problem is replacing my 27" iMac! My workflow is now dependant on
>>>>>> having that amount of screen space and the 24" models don't really hack it.
>>>>>
>>>>> mac studio + 27" studio display or even better, a 32" xdr display.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed but at what cost?
>>>
>>> Mac Mini + non-Apple display?
>>>
>>> (Mac purists may tell you it *must* be 5K, but Macs will happily rescale to
>>> a non 2:1 pixel density. You may find a 4K panel with a slightly lower
>>> pixel density plus rescaling is sharp enough)
>>>
>>
>> Is the route that I'm looking to go down, still quite a pricey option. I
>> estimate it as being about a third more expensive, going back to the
>> price differentials between the two iMacs when I bought mine.
>
> What vintage of iMac is it, btw? Not one that supports Target Display mode
> by any chance? You could use it as an external display with a new Mac mini.
> https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204592
>
> (if you have a newer iMac there are software workarounds that aren't as
> good)
>

It's a late 2012 model, first of the slimline versions. But it won't
work with a new mini.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> It's a late 2012 model, first of the slimline versions. But it won't
> work with a new mini.

Hmm, interesting. It seems TDM is 'special', it's not just a regular
Displayport input but requires some handshaking between the two ends. I had
hoped that you could just drive it from another regular video input, either
DP or HDMI via a converter, but it seems that doesn't work. Which is sad,
if the iMac is a perfectly good monitor with plenty of life.

OTOH the 2012 27" is a 1440p display and I imagine finding a modern one of
those wouldn't be too difficult.

Another option is Luna Display, which is a hardware+software thingy. It's
not a normal monitor though, and so there are limitations.

Theo

On 13 Jun 2022 at 17:32:33 BST, "Graeme Wall"
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> On 13/06/2022 17:27, nospam wrote:
>> In article <t87nos$nps$5@dont-email.me>, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> The green ones were, apparently, because they could deliver a brighter
>>> picture in daylight. Some of the early hand-held tv cameras used them
>>> for viewfinders for that reason.
>>
>> it's because the human eye is most sensitive to green,
>
> So subjectively brighter.

Don't think so (although that's subject to the usual "do we perceive
colours the same as other people" sort of stuff). More discriminant, you
can differentiate more shades of it than other colours.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
If you mean 'am I serious about what I do', the answer is yes.
If you mean 'am I serious about how I do it', the answer is no.

On 12/06/2022 11:06, Theo wrote:
> Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>> You should be OK with Catalina.
>>
>> <https://support.apple.com/kb/SP803?locale=en_GB>
>>
>> If you check the specs for BS it says 2014 iMac or newer.
>>
>> <https://support.apple.com/kb/sp833?locale=en_GB>
>
> Worth mentioning that OCLP can install up to Monterey:
> https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.html
>
> bearing in mind that Catalina will likely go out of support when Ventura is
> released, so either way you'll end up on an unsupported OS.

Interesting, I gave that a try out on my old iMac 27" - Late 2013
(currently on Catalina), 16GB RAM (8GB of that is Crucial), and a
Crucial 500GB SSD internally.

I used a spare USB external drive to bung Monterey onto and logged into
a redundant iCloud account I already have.

I was quite surprised at how well it ran, for the short test I tried, I
didn't want to muck around with my main data though, so didn't have a
lot to test it with (no documents or photos etc.)

But, it did show that the latest OS's do run well on an older machine.
Although I've always found this particular iMac model seems to be in a
bit of a sweet spot as far as performance goes - I noticed a lot of
users with newer models struggled with performance a fair bit when
running system intensive apps (such as Lightroom Raw editing), where
this old things always ran fine for such things.

Ok, I can forego a few of the fancy newer features that might rely on
newer hardware, if it's stable, and all my usual funtionality is still
present, then why not?

This could be something to consider if security patches stop being
applied to Catalina.

Any experiences of how stable running Monterey this way actually is? If
it's reliable, I might consider installing it full time onto my internal
HDD. Or at least make it live with my main iCloud account, and continue
off the external for a while. I wouldn't want to risk it doing something
untoward though, like emptying my Photos library or something similar
(that's probably the worst that could happen).

Cheers.

--
Andy H

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Alan B <alanrichardbarker@nospamgmail.com.here> wrote:
>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>> Worth mentioning that OCLP can install up to Monterey:
>>> https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher/MODELS.html
>>>
>>> bearing in mind that Catalina will likely go out of support when Ventura is
>>> released, so either way you'll end up on an unsupported OS.
>>
>> I notice that no MBAs after 2014 are mentioned.
>
> The 2015 MBAs are supported by mainline Monterey, so there's no need for a
> 'patcher'. Presumably OCLP will add support for them if/when it adds Ventura
> support.

Won’t that be more of a challenge since I think Ventura as it stands won’t
run on Macs that have no T2 chip?

--
Cheers, Alan

On 14/06/2022 22:40, Theo wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> It's a late 2012 model, first of the slimline versions. But it won't
>> work with a new mini.
>
> Hmm, interesting. It seems TDM is 'special', it's not just a regular
> Displayport input but requires some handshaking between the two ends. I had
> hoped that you could just drive it from another regular video input, either
> DP or HDMI via a converter, but it seems that doesn't work. Which is sad,
> if the iMac is a perfectly good monitor with plenty of life.
>
> OTOH the 2012 27" is a 1440p display and I imagine finding a modern one of
> those wouldn't be too difficult.

One of the reasons for changing is to get a better display!

>
> Another option is Luna Display, which is a hardware+software thingy. It's
> not a normal monitor though, and so there are limitations.
>
Same problem.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:

> However, I would prefer it if it were possible to change it on an app by
> app basis (although I know you can for some if they include the option).
>
> I find it is preferable to have the dark mode for some things (Photos is
> one, although that does use a dark background when editing, but the
> switch from light to dark suddenly is not great), but not others (like
> Maps, that's just unusable in dark mode).

Well I never! Shortcuts to the rescue. I never even considered the
possibility that it could even be done that way.

I’ve set up a Shortcuts ‘Automation’ routine that sets dark mode when I
open Photos, and then reverts to light mode when it quits. Perfect - and of
course you could do that for any app you need to.

--
Andy H

Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
> Andy Hewitt <thewildrover@icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> However, I would prefer it if it were possible to change it on an app by
>> app basis (although I know you can for some if they include the option).
>>
>> I find it is preferable to have the dark mode for some things (Photos is
>> one, although that does use a dark background when editing, but the
>> switch from light to dark suddenly is not great), but not others (like
>> Maps, that's just unusable in dark mode).
>
> Well I never! Shortcuts to the rescue. I never even considered the
> possibility that it could even be done that way.
>
> I’ve set up a Shortcuts ‘Automation’ routine that sets dark mode when I
> open Photos, and then reverts to light mode when it quits. Perfect - and of
> course you could do that for any app you need to.

That seems like a very useful shortcut! Knowing a bit about AppleScript
helps I guess?

--
Cheers, Alan