I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.

So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.

I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.

I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:

> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.

MK MetalClad?

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>
Searching for 'black back box' has produced a few possibles but mostly
deeper than I actually need. D-Line do single and double boxes 28mm
deep in various colours, if I can find anyone who sells them. I'd
prefer shallower if could find them though.

--
Chris Green
·

On 25/04/2023 15:24, Chris Green wrote:
> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.

Can't you fit a false back in front of the real one? Then you could use
standard boxes designed for plasterboard, but you wouldn't see them from
the other side, as that would be a separate piece of wood.

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green wrote:
>
> > So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> > decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> MK MetalClad?

Look fairly OK but would they work with standard double sockets? I.e.
does an MK 3/4 gang box take a double socket?

--
Chris Green
·

On 25/04/2023 15:24, Chris Green wrote:
> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.

I think using wood as part of the container is deprecated in these days
of fire resistant back boxes and pattresses.

> I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.
>

My only thought was to use conventional back boxes inside a larger
wooden box with a lid - the hole for the box being cut in the bottom of
the box. That way the box would look functional. Indeed, you could
even make them functional if the location would benefit from some small
storage space.

A cheap example (but check the measurements!)

https://www.thewoodenboxmill.co.uk/plain-wooden-sliding-lid-box-photographers-usb-photo-wedding-matchstick-box

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.

I think a typical UK socket will need 25mm minimum for the socket and the
wiring. Although if your wiring is not 2.5mm2 T&E you might get manage to
get tighter bends and shave some depth there. Or if you can get depth by
cutting into the panel.

Are you able to run wires behind the panel, or you don't want to break
through?

> I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.

Use a conventional surface box and make a surround out of wood, eg a few
bits of mitred ply? The back doesn't need to be timber. Then use a wood
face plate.

Or there's this, which is the same idea:
https://shop.switchtowood.co.uk/wood-ranges/surface-mounting-boxes.html
and they do matching faceplates.

Theo

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> On 25/04/2023 15:24, Chris Green wrote:
> > I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> > it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> > view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> Can't you fit a false back in front of the real one? Then you could use
> standard boxes designed for plasterboard, but you wouldn't see them from
> the other side, as that would be a separate piece of wood.
>
I'm not sure that I follow you.

There will be a double socket sized hole in the wooden panel (plywood
in reality) and the socket will fit flush to that. Where will your
'false back' go?

--
Chris Green
·

Robin <rbw@outlook.com> wrote:
> On 25/04/2023 15:24, Chris Green wrote:
> > I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> > it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> > view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
> >
> > So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> > decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
> >
> > I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> > they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> > 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>
> I think using wood as part of the container is deprecated in these days
> of fire resistant back boxes and pattresses.
>
>
> > I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> > in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> > looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> > for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> > back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.
> >
>
> My only thought was to use conventional back boxes inside a larger
> wooden box with a lid - the hole for the box being cut in the bottom of
> the box. That way the box would look functional. Indeed, you could
> even make them functional if the location would benefit from some small
> storage space.
>
> A cheap example (but check the measurements!)
>
> https://www.thewoodenboxmill.co.uk/plain-wooden-sliding-lid-box-photographers-usb-photo-wedding-matchstick-box
>
Yes, I guess that would work, thanks for the idea.

--
Chris Green
·

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> > it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> > view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
> >
> > So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> > decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
> >
> > I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> > they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> > 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>
> I think a typical UK socket will need 25mm minimum for the socket and the
> wiring. Although if your wiring is not 2.5mm2 T&E you might get manage to
> get tighter bends and shave some depth there. Or if you can get depth by
> cutting into the panel.
>
Yes, but there's at least 10mm of depth in the panel, maybe even 18mm
in which case I only need 7mm more of actual backbox.

> Are you able to run wires behind the panel, or you don't want to break
> through?
>
Yes, that's where they are mostly, I'd probably run mini-trunking to
make things neat and safe to use as cupboard space.

> > I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> > in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> > looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> > for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> > back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.
>
> Use a conventional surface box and make a surround out of wood, eg a few
> bits of mitred ply? The back doesn't need to be timber. Then use a wood
> face plate.
>
Er, the whole point is to have only wood or at least something dark,
showing. The back of the box will be visible in the cupboard (or other
side of panel between 'rooms' so needs to be covered.

> Or there's this, which is the same idea:
> https://shop.switchtowood.co.uk/wood-ranges/surface-mounting-boxes.html
> and they do matching faceplates.
>
Exactly the problem! :-) They're designed for surface mounting. I
want the sockets to be flush mounted with a box *behind* the panel
that is OK to look at. If I used one of the above then the metal back
of the back box will be exposed. I.e. I want a 'pretty' dry-lining
back box.

--
Chris Green
·

Double up the panels, so they are twice as thick. Job done?

Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > Or there's this, which is the same idea:
> > https://shop.switchtowood.co.uk/wood-ranges/surface-mounting-boxes.html
> > and they do matching faceplates.
> >
> Exactly the problem! :-) They're designed for surface mounting. I
> want the sockets to be flush mounted with a box *behind* the panel
> that is OK to look at. If I used one of the above then the metal back
> of the back box will be exposed. I.e. I want a 'pretty' dry-lining
> back box.

Ah, ok, so it's not just the sides on display - the socket itself is mounted
flush to the front of the panel, X mm worth of panel thickness, then 25-X mm
protrudes into the cupboard?

I might be tempted just to cut a few bits of ply or pine to form a backbox -
four sides and a back. Then you can cut them to the right size, rather than
using something oversized.

Theo

GB <NOTsomeone@microsoft.invalid> wrote:
>
> Double up the panels, so they are twice as thick. Job done?
>
Not really, I still have to cover the sockets at the back.

--
Chris Green
·

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> > > Or there's this, which is the same idea:
> > > https://shop.switchtowood.co.uk/wood-ranges/surface-mounting-boxes.html
> > > and they do matching faceplates.
> > >
> > Exactly the problem! :-) They're designed for surface mounting. I
> > want the sockets to be flush mounted with a box *behind* the panel
> > that is OK to look at. If I used one of the above then the metal back
> > of the back box will be exposed. I.e. I want a 'pretty' dry-lining
> > back box.
>
> Ah, ok, so it's not just the sides on display - the socket itself is mounted
> flush to the front of the panel, X mm worth of panel thickness, then 25-X mm
> protrudes into the cupboard?
>
> I might be tempted just to cut a few bits of ply or pine to form a backbox -
> four sides and a back. Then you can cut them to the right size, rather than
> using something oversized.
>
Yes, that's probably the way isn't it, the socket can be fixed to the
panel using 3mm woodscrews and the wooden backbox just goes over it.
I was just hoping for a more ready-made solution.

--
Chris Green
·

On 25/04/2023 16:21, Chris Green wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>> Chris Green wrote:
>>
>>> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
>>> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>>
>> MK MetalClad?
>
> Look fairly OK but would they work with standard double sockets? I.e.
> does an MK 3/4 gang box take a double socket?
>

No. That range has rounded corners so you need the matching MK
faceplates/skts/fused spurs

On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 18:51:29 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
> > Look fairly OK but would they work with standard double sockets? I.e.
> > does an MK 3/4 gang box take a double socket?
> No. That range has rounded corners so you need the matching MK
> faceplates/skts/fused spurs

If you want to surface mount them, yes.

If the back box is flushed into a panel then they should work with most standard sockets as the fixing centres are the same.

IIRC Rapid do the metalclad back boxes without knockouts, intended for schools where unused knockouts are vulnerable. TYou'd have to drill them yourself.

And of course you can spraypaint them.

Owain

On 25/04/2023 17:23, Chris Green wrote:
> SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
>> On 25/04/2023 15:24, Chris Green wrote:
>>> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
>>> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
>>> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>>
>> Can't you fit a false back in front of the real one? Then you could use
>> standard boxes designed for plasterboard, but you wouldn't see them from
>> the other side, as that would be a separate piece of wood.
>>
> I'm not sure that I follow you.
>
> There will be a double socket sized hole in the wooden panel (plywood
> in reality) and the socket will fit flush to that. Where will your
> 'false back' go?

You said that you wanted to install the sockets in a wooden panel and
that the back of the boxes would be somewhere like inside a cupboard. I
was suggesting putting another piece of wood in the cupboard, which from
inside, would appear to be the back of the cupboard, but was just a
cover for the real back and the back of the backboxes.

On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 15:33:07 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>
> I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.

3d printing a cover is another option. It goes over the metal backbox.

Does it really matter inside? I mean you still will have an ugly wire coming
to it.
As an aside, and I do not know if these ever caught on, but there were
surface mount boxes made that were a bit wider and taller that had pretty
multicoloured LEDs inside to help folk find the light switch in the dark.
Probably found upon these environmentally friendly days. They kind of
reminded me of those boy racer cars all blinged up underneath with purple
leds.
Since I lost my sight, I obviously cannot tell if these things still exist.
Brian

--

--:
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Green" <cl@isbd.net> wrote in message
news:id4lhj-opa3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
>I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>
> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>
> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>
> I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.
>
> --
> Chris Green
> �

Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does it really matter inside? I mean you still will have an ugly wire coming
> to it.

It matters as it has to be 'finger safe', one can't have an
unprotected back of a socket touchable.

> "Chris Green" <cl@isbd.net> wrote in message
> news:id4lhj-opa3.ln1@esprimo.zbmc.eu...
> >I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> > it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> > view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
> >
> > So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> > decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
> >
> > I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> > they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> > 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
> >
> > I know I had to make my own pattress boxes for surface mounted sockets
> > in a wooden cabin, I just carved a hole out of a reasonable nice
> > looking rectangular block of wood. So maybe I'll have to do the same
> > for this but it's more difficult because it needs to be a box with a
> > back rather than simply a lump of wood with a hole right through.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Green
> > ·
>
>

--
Chris Green
·

On 25/04/2023 15:40, Chris Green wrote:
> Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
>> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
>> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
>>
>> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
>> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
>>
>> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
>> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
>> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
>>
> Searching for 'black back box' has produced a few possibles but mostly
> deeper than I actually need. D-Line do single and double boxes 28mm
> deep in various colours, if I can find anyone who sells them. I'd
> prefer shallower if could find them though.

You can get 10mm spacer frames designed to sit between a backbox and the
accessory to allow a bit more wiring space. You could just stack a
couple of those to create your shallow box.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 26/04/2023 09:00, Chris Green wrote:
> Brian Gaff <brian1gaff@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Does it really matter inside? I mean you still will have an ugly wire coming
>> to it.
>
> It matters as it has to be 'finger safe', one can't have an
> unprotected back of a socket touchable.

I think I would make up a template to guide a router, and hollow out the
panel to a depth of say 10mm, then fit your socket into that hollow
using a couple of:

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/BG818.html

To give enough room for wiring and still keep it all fully enclosed.

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
> You can get 10mm spacer frames designed to sit between a backbox and the
> accessory to allow a bit more wiring space. You could just stack a
> couple of those to create your shallow box.

Or there are wooden pattresses for mounting antique light switches:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284708988006
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204215339386

That could be used as the back of an inset box, perhaps using one of those
wooden switch/socket frames for the sides.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
> > You can get 10mm spacer frames designed to sit between a backbox and the
> > accessory to allow a bit more wiring space. You could just stack a
> > couple of those to create your shallow box.
>
> Or there are wooden pattresses for mounting antique light switches:
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284708988006
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204215339386
>
> That could be used as the back of an inset box, perhaps using one of those
> wooden switch/socket frames for the sides.
>
I think in the end it would be simpler just to make the whole box
myself. Lengths of, say, 16 x 8 mm wood for the sides and a bit of
6mm plywood for the back.

--
Chris Green
·

John Rumm <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> wrote:
> On 25/04/2023 15:40, Chris Green wrote:
> > Chris Green <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> >> I want to install some double sockets (might be some other things, but
> >> it's mostly sockets) in wooden panels where the back, while not in
> >> view normally is in usable space, like the inside of a cupboard.
> >>
> >> So I'm looking for some sort of back box which is somewhat more
> >> decorative than the standard white pattress box or metal box.
> >>
> >> I've had a quick look but can't see much that's suitable. Ideally
> >> they'd be quite shallow because the wooden panels are mostly 10mm or
> >> 18mm thick so a socket won't need 25mm more of backbox.
> >>
> > Searching for 'black back box' has produced a few possibles but mostly
> > deeper than I actually need. D-Line do single and double boxes 28mm
> > deep in various colours, if I can find anyone who sells them. I'd
> > prefer shallower if could find them though.
>
> You can get 10mm spacer frames designed to sit between a backbox and the
> accessory to allow a bit more wiring space. You could just stack a
> couple of those to create your shallow box.
>
It wouldn't have a back then though would it? The whole point is that
the back of the socket needs to be covered to be safe as it will be
either in a storage cupboard or even in the next 'room'.

--
Chris Green
·