On Sunday, 16 July 2023 at 18:56:12 UTC+1, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 16/07/2023 13:45, charles wrote:
> > church business answering machine.
> That's sounds a reasonable case for a landline. Or at least another line.

It seems an even better case for VoIP, where the number isn't tied to the address of an individual, and where potentially multiple people can answer calls on a duty rota, or retrieve (or be emailed) the voicemail messages, with no disruption when roles or locations change.

And other people can make outdoing calls using the church office CLI.

Owain

On 15/07/2023 15:48, Robin wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 13:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>
>>
>> If you wrote the wiki (or that part of it) then wow, and thank you
>> very much 😄
>
> Not me 'guv! Main author was John Rumm with contributions from others.

So who was it said a Raspberry Pi is a Single Bard Computer?

But as I said on the other thread this doesn't agree with what we have
here. They took the entire village to FTTP (at least I think it was
everyone) and the POTS port on our router has never worked. Instead they
gave us a VOIP phone.

(Since then we've gone internet only, and use our mobiles with Wi-Fi
calling.)

Andy

On 16/07/2023 21:13, Theo wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> Its worse. It will come from the same pole, but they will only feed it
>> into the building in the ground floor. My phone line used to enter on
>> the first floor, so I had to run a cable from the fibre back to the
>> router and hubs on the first floor...
>
> I'm not sure if that's a hard and fast rule. They want a termination point
> at ground level, so they can diagnose faults without having the householder
> being in or needing ladders. But you may be able to convince them to run
> the cable from the termination point back up to ingress on another floor.
> In particular, if they're fixing a run down from the pole, it's not a big
> deal to run another cable up in parallel with the first. Especially if the
> internal install is easy - eg power available close to where it comes in.

Hmmm, I wonder what will happen if I choose to go down the FTTP route. I
currently have Virgin and when that was installed, they were terminating
the co-ax in a box on the front of the house and then running a co-ax
from there to the router.

In my case, I planned ahead and ran my own co-ax for them to connect to,
as I wanted the the cable to go into the house at an air-brick and run
under the floor to the conservatory, where I have a cupboard with mains
sockets, UPS, router, network switch and home server.

I do not want to have to find somewhere at the front of the house for
their ONT (possibly with BBU, as my wife is disabled and may need an
emergency pendant in the future), when everything else is at the back.

Do they run their fibre as one length or is it joined outside, perhaps
allowing me to pre-run a length of fibre in the same way?

On Sun, 16 Jul 2023 18:48:35 +0100, David Wade wrote:

> On 16/07/2023 17:28, Another Dave wrote:
>> On 16/07/2023 3:17 pm, Adrian wrote:
>>> In message <u90tls$pkf9$1@dont-email.me>, Another Dave
>>> <dmarsden@nospam.com> writes
>>>> I've got a telegraph pole outside my house with nine neighbour's
>>>> connected to it.
>>>>
>>>> Does this change mean it will be removed?
>>>>
>>>> How does the fibre get to my house?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Probably by the same route.
>>
>> Bugger.
>>
>>
> Its worse. It will come from the same pole, but they will only feed it
> into the building in the ground floor. My phone line used to enter on
> the first floor, so I had to run a cable from the fibre back to the
> router and hubs on the first floor...

I was very lucky. We were in the same situation (the line comes in right
next to the network panel/equipment rack) and he did an incredibly neat
job, terminating 20cm from the rack.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

SteveW <steve@walker-family.me.uk> wrote:
> In my case, I planned ahead and ran my own co-ax for them to connect to,
> as I wanted the the cable to go into the house at an air-brick and run
> under the floor to the conservatory, where I have a cupboard with mains
> sockets, UPS, router, network switch and home server.
>
> I do not want to have to find somewhere at the front of the house for
> their ONT (possibly with BBU, as my wife is disabled and may need an
> emergency pendant in the future), when everything else is at the back.
>
> Do they run their fibre as one length or is it joined outside, perhaps
> allowing me to pre-run a length of fibre in the same way?

They run fibre from the pole/duct/etc to their external termination box.
It's then jointed to a different bit of fibre that comes inside and connects
to your ONT.

Depending on what you can negotiate with them, I might be tempted to accept
an install at the front, and then do your own relocation to the back. Kits
for that are available:
https://www.premitel.uk/uncategorized/how-to-relocate-the-fttp-ont/

If it's Openreach, they also have a 'premium install' option for an extra
£40, which means they'll do a lot more internal work. Well worth it IMHO:
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/04/openreach-uk-to-pilot-new-fttp-broadband-advanced-installs.html

Your internal cable run might be covered under that option.

Theo

On 16/07/2023 13:39, mm0fmf wrote:
> On 16/07/2023 12:02, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> On 16/07/2023 in message <u90bth$ne4p$2@dont-email.me> David Wade wrote:
>>
>>>> OK, not landline - perhaps "wired"? Looks like I may be swapping my
>>>> existing package with one supplier with 2 or more packages.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Depends where you want the wire to go!
>>> Sadly the router giganet offers does not have a VOIP port so you will
>>> need some hardware. Since giganet use CGNAT you may also need to
>>> order a Static IP address as CGNAT can break VOIP.
>>>
>>> https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/what-is-cgnat
>>>
>>> then you need a package. A&A seem the simplest. They also have a VPN
>>> service to by-pass the CGNAT at £2/month.....
>>>
>>> https://www.aa.net.uk/etc/news/l2tp-service-changes/
>>>
>>> Sorry if this is complex...
>>
>> I just to to think it through :-)
>>
>> I was five before we had a 'phone so my experience is no-phone and
>> wired-phone. I do have a mobile and it's got a good package on it so
>> perhaps as "mm0fmf" says down thread perhaps just use the mobile.
>>
>> It does WiFi calling because the service is a bit wobbly here and I
>> can also use it as a tethered hot spot (terminology may be completely
>> wrong) so on the 2 or 3 occasions my broadband has been down I can use
>> it for Internet access.
>>
>> Will find ice pack for brain!!!
>>
>
> I was used to always having a landline. At home from when I was tiny to
> last May in my 3rd own home. I'd thought about dumping it for sometime
> as Virgin's "landline" phone isn't cheap, either the rental or some call
> costs. The issue was I'd always had one and it didn't feel right to only
> have a mobile phone. I'd thought about going to VOIP with someone like
> Vonage if I dumped Virgin.
>
> The change to 2FA (two factor authentication) on bank accounts etc.
> meant they all had my mobile number to send me texts to confirm login
> attempts so I had no real problems dumping the landline other than the
> fact I felt a little naked in only have a mobile phone. However, not
> only is there my mobile phone but my wife's as well. The other issue is
> I had 3 DECT handsets before, 2 downstairs at either end of the house
> and 1 in the bedroom. I refuse to carry my phone about the house all day
> so if someone rings and I don't hear it then I don't hear and end up
> ringing back. But as there are infinite minutes it's not really an issue.
>
> The biggest problem then is accepting you don't really need a landline
> if you have a mobile. And as I said in the other thread, if you have
> Wifi calling then even less than stellar mobile coverage is not a
> problem. Once I'd accepted it was no longer essential, only having a
> mobile just became the new normal. My son (31) has never had a fixed
> line phone at his flats and now home. Likewise, most of my under 35 work
> colleagues just have a mobile. Landline desire does tend to be an
> indicator that you're getting on a bit ;-)

I find that people text or call mobiles at any time of the day or night,
but avoid ringing landlines at night, except in an emergency. I much
prefer to have a landline, so that I can turn my mobile off overnight.

Plus, I tend to have do not disturb on on my mobile, with only selected
people able to cause the phone to ring.

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 15:48, Robin wrote:
> > On 15/07/2023 13:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> If you wrote the wiki (or that part of it) then wow, and thank you
> >> very much 😄
> >
> > Not me 'guv! Main author was John Rumm with contributions from others.
>
> So who was it said a Raspberry Pi is a Single Bard Computer?
>
> But as I said on the other thread this doesn't agree with what we have
> here. They took the entire village to FTTP (at least I think it was
> everyone) and the POTS port on our router has never worked. Instead they
> gave us a VOIP phone.

Who is 'they' here? Assuming you're talking about Openreach taking the
village FTTP and not an altnet, you don't get your phone and router from
Openreach, you get it from an ISP. Was your ISP BT or somebody else?

Theo

On 16/07/2023 21:39, SteveW wrote:
> On 16/07/2023 21:13, Theo wrote:
>> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>>> Its worse. It will come from the same pole, but they will only feed it
>>> into the building in the ground floor. My phone line used to enter on
>>> the first floor, so I had to run a cable from the fibre back to the
>>> router and hubs on the first floor...
>>
>> I'm not sure if that's a hard and fast rule.  They want a termination
>> point
>> at ground level, so they can diagnose faults without having the
>> householder
>> being in or needing ladders.  But you may be able to convince them to run
>> the cable from the termination point back up to ingress on another floor.
>> In particular, if they're fixing a run down from the pole, it's not a big
>> deal to run another cable up in parallel with the first.  Especially
>> if the
>> internal install is easy - eg power available close to where it comes in.
>
> Hmmm, I wonder what will happen if I choose to go down the FTTP route. I
> currently have Virgin and when that was installed, they were terminating
> the co-ax in a box on the front of the house and then running a co-ax
> from there to the router.
>
> In my case, I planned ahead and ran my own co-ax for them to connect to,
> as I wanted the the cable to go into the house at an air-brick and run
> under the floor to the conservatory, where I have a cupboard with mains
> sockets, UPS, router, network switch and home server.
>
> I do not want to have to find somewhere at the front of the house for
> their ONT (possibly with BBU, as my wife is disabled and may need an
> emergency pendant in the future), when everything else is at the back.
>
> Do they run their fibre as one length or is it joined outside, perhaps
> allowing me to pre-run a length of fibre in the same way?

The incoming fibre is terminated into a connector and then a joining
splice is inserted into the outside wall box.

The engineer usually has a range of pre-terminated optical patch fibres
with connectors pre fitted at both ends in the van, usually in lengths
of 5m, 10m, 15m, 20m and 25m. They then use one to run from the wall box
to where the ONT is being installed and then a short length of ethernet
from the ONT to the Router.

So you can either tell the engineer that you want the ONT and Router in
the rear room, and they will usually run the patch fibre from the wall
box around the outside of the house.

Main criteria is that it all has to be at ground floor level and that
the route from wall box to ONT is clear and free to access.

You can buy the same optical patch fibres with connectors fitted which
is what I did as I moved the ONT and router to the loft as that is where
the headend is.

The original engineer fitted it all on a shelf in the garage (I had
fitted the shelf) and also ran the fibre in a 20mm conduit I had laid
years ago that ran between the front room ceiling and bedroom floor
between the wall box on teh porch wall and the garage!

On 16/07/2023 21:13, Theo wrote:
> David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
>> Its worse. It will come from the same pole, but they will only feed it
>> into the building in the ground floor. My phone line used to enter on
>> the first floor, so I had to run a cable from the fibre back to the
>> router and hubs on the first floor...
>
> I'm not sure if that's a hard and fast rule.

It appears to be the case.

> They want a termination point
> at ground level, so they can diagnose faults without having the householder
> being in or needing ladders.

The also don't want to use a ladder if the fibre from the termination
point needs replacing...

> But you may be able to convince them to run
> the cable from the termination point back up to ingress on another floor.
> In particular, if they're fixing a run down from the pole, it's not a big
> deal to run another cable up in parallel with the first. Especially if the
> internal install is easy - eg power available close to where it comes in.
>
> That may be a time to deploy the fabled tea and choccy biccies...

I tried, I failed. Others report similar intransigence....

>
> Theo

Dave

On 16/07/2023 22:03, SteveW wrote:
> On 16/07/2023 13:39, mm0fmf wrote:
>> On 16/07/2023 12:02, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>> On 16/07/2023 in message <u90bth$ne4p$2@dont-email.me> David Wade wrote:
>>>
>>>>> OK, not landline - perhaps "wired"? Looks like I may be swapping my
>>>>> existing package with one supplier with 2 or more packages.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depends where you want the wire to go!
>>>> Sadly the router giganet offers does not have a VOIP port so you
>>>> will need some hardware. Since giganet use CGNAT you may also need
>>>> to order a Static IP address as CGNAT can break VOIP.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.draytek.co.uk/information/blog/what-is-cgnat
>>>>
>>>> then you need a package. A&A seem the simplest. They also have a VPN
>>>> service to by-pass the CGNAT at £2/month.....
>>>>
>>>> https://www.aa.net.uk/etc/news/l2tp-service-changes/
>>>>
>>>> Sorry if this is complex...
>>>
>>> I just to to think it through :-)
>>>
>>> I was five before we had a 'phone so my experience is no-phone and
>>> wired-phone. I do have a mobile and it's got a good package on it so
>>> perhaps as "mm0fmf" says down thread perhaps just use the mobile.
>>>
>>> It does WiFi calling because the service is a bit wobbly here and I
>>> can also use it as a tethered hot spot (terminology may be completely
>>> wrong) so on the 2 or 3 occasions my broadband has been down I can
>>> use it for Internet access.
>>>
>>> Will find ice pack for brain!!!
>>>
>>
>> I was used to always having a landline. At home from when I was tiny
>> to last May in my 3rd own home. I'd thought about dumping it for
>> sometime as Virgin's "landline" phone isn't cheap, either the rental
>> or some call costs. The issue was I'd always had one and it didn't
>> feel right to only have a mobile phone. I'd thought about going to
>> VOIP with someone like Vonage if I dumped Virgin.
>>
>> The change to 2FA (two factor authentication) on bank accounts etc.
>> meant they all had my mobile number to send me texts to confirm login
>> attempts so I had no real problems dumping the landline other than the
>> fact I felt a little naked in only have a mobile phone. However, not
>> only is there my mobile phone but my wife's as well. The other issue
>> is I had 3 DECT handsets before, 2 downstairs at either end of the
>> house and 1 in the bedroom. I refuse to carry my phone about the house
>> all day so if someone rings and I don't hear it then I don't hear and
>> end up ringing back. But as there are infinite minutes it's not really
>> an issue.
>>
>> The biggest problem then is accepting you don't really need a landline
>> if you have a mobile. And as I said in the other thread, if you have
>> Wifi calling then even less than stellar mobile coverage is not a
>> problem. Once I'd accepted it was no longer essential, only having a
>> mobile just became the new normal. My son (31) has never had a fixed
>> line phone at his flats and now home. Likewise, most of my under 35
>> work colleagues just have a mobile. Landline desire does tend to be an
>> indicator that you're getting on a bit ;-)
>
> I find that people text or call mobiles at any time of the day or night,
> but avoid ringing landlines at night, except in an emergency.

i think you are lucky. mine seems to get rung at 08:00 when I am still
asleep.

> I much
> prefer to have a landline, so that I can turn my mobile off overnight.

My mobile automatically switches to do-not-disturb between midnight and
09:30 which caused problems as Openreach tried ringing at 09:00 and were
ignored.

>
> Plus, I tend to have do not disturb on on my mobile, with only selected
> people able to cause the phone to ring.
>

I missed a hospital appointment like that....

Dave

On 16/07/2023 21:33, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 15:48, Robin wrote:
>> On 15/07/2023 13:04, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If you wrote the wiki (or that part of it) then wow, and thank you
>>> very much 😄
>>
>> Not me 'guv! Main author was John Rumm with contributions from others.
>
> So who was it said a Raspberry Pi is a Single Bard Computer?
>

Again, not me. But I noted it, with approval, and trust you are not
implying it is anything but a fit and proper phrase that will roll
trippingly of the tongue of even rude mechanicals.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 16/07/2023 15:09, Another Dave wrote:
> On 15/07/2023 11:53 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>
>> Somebody was kind enough recently to post a link to a website about
>> use of POTS. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it so would appreciate it
>> if somebody would put it up again.
>>
>> My street now has fibre, not sure id it's live yet, so I need to think
>> about 'phone service.
>>
>
> I've got a telegraph pole outside my house with nine neighbour's
> connected to it.
>
> Does this change mean it will be removed?
>
> How does the fibre get to my house?

Around my way they just replace the copper with fibre - fibre from the
top of the pole to the house.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article <khk9a7Fp25U2@mid.individual.net>,
alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On 16/07/2023 15:09, Another Dave wrote:
> > On 15/07/2023 11:53 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> >>
> >> Somebody was kind enough recently to post a link to a website about
> >> use of POTS. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it so would appreciate it
> >> if somebody would put it up again.
> >>
> >> My street now has fibre, not sure id it's live yet, so I need to think
> >> about 'phone service.
> >>
> >
> > I've got a telegraph pole outside my house with nine neighbour's
> > connected to it.
> >
> > Does this change mean it will be removed?
> >
> > How does the fibre get to my house?

> Around my way they just replace the copper with fibre - fibre from the
> top of the pole to the house.

I've still got the copper - as well as the fibre.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:00:02 +0000, charles wrote:

> In article <khk9a7Fp25U2@mid.individual.net>,
> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 16/07/2023 15:09, Another Dave wrote:
>> > On 15/07/2023 11:53 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Somebody was kind enough recently to post a link to a website about
>> >> use of POTS. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it so would appreciate
>> >> it if somebody would put it up again.
>> >>
>> >> My street now has fibre, not sure id it's live yet, so I need to
>> >> think about 'phone service.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I've got a telegraph pole outside my house with nine neighbour's
>> > connected to it.
>> >
>> > Does this change mean it will be removed?
>> >
>> > How does the fibre get to my house?
>
>> Around my way they just replace the copper with fibre - fibre from the
>> top of the pole to the house.
>
> I've still got the copper - as well as the fibre.

So have I. But probably because I ordered the FTTP without ceasing FTTC,
just in case. Two days of tests (on a temporary account the ISP gave me)
and then they switched me over, routing my public IPs to the fibre.

I just paid for two extra days of FTTC.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 17/07/2023 11:01, Bob Eager wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 09:00:02 +0000, charles wrote:
>
>> In article <khk9a7Fp25U2@mid.individual.net>,
>> alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 16/07/2023 15:09, Another Dave wrote:
>>>> On 15/07/2023 11:53 am, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Somebody was kind enough recently to post a link to a website about
>>>>> use of POTS. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it so would appreciate
>>>>> it if somebody would put it up again.
>>>>>
>>>>> My street now has fibre, not sure id it's live yet, so I need to
>>>>> think about 'phone service.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I've got a telegraph pole outside my house with nine neighbour's
>>>> connected to it.
>>>>
>>>> Does this change mean it will be removed?
>>>>
>>>> How does the fibre get to my house?
>>
>>> Around my way they just replace the copper with fibre - fibre from the
>>> top of the pole to the house.
>>
>> I've still got the copper - as well as the fibre.
>
> So have I. But probably because I ordered the FTTP without ceasing FTTC,
> just in case. Two days of tests (on a temporary account the ISP gave me)
> and then they switched me over, routing my public IPs to the fibre.
>
> I just paid for two extra days of FTTC.
>
>
>
Well when they put my Fibre in they were very keen to remove the copper
but I said it was still needed. However after asking OpenReach have just
come and removed the copper, no charge...

Dave

On 16/07/2023 22:03, Theo wrote:
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> But as I said on the other thread this doesn't agree with what we have
>> here. They took the entire village to FTTP (at least I think it was
>> everyone) and the POTS port on our router has never worked. Instead they
>> gave us a VOIP phone.
>
> Who is 'they' here? Assuming you're talking about Openreach taking the
> village FTTP and not an altnet, you don't get your phone and router from
> Openreach, you get it from an ISP. Was your ISP BT or somebody else?
>
My ISP was indeed BT - and as it happens still is, at least for the next
few months.

I thought OR would screw up the install (they did) and that way I don't
have two companies trying to blame each other (which BT/OR didn't)

My wife is on an EE mobile contract linked to the broadband. It runs out
in a couple of months, and I'll check around.

Andy

On 17/07/2023 12:36, David Wade wrote:
> Well when they put my Fibre in they were very keen to remove the copper
> but I said it was still needed. However after asking OpenReach have just
> come and removed the copper, no charge...

Perhaps I should ask. We have two lots of copper which I neatly coiled
up under the eaves at our end. They cross the street to the pole.

Andy

On 18/07/2023 in message <u96thc$1pesr$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
wrote:

>My ISP was indeed BT - and as it happens still is, at least for the next
>few months.
>
>I thought OR would screw up the install (they did) and that way I don't
>have two companies trying to blame each other (which BT/OR didn't)

They are managed entirely separately and OR is not allowed to favour BT.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who do binary and those
who don't.

On 19/07/2023 08:20, Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 18/07/2023 in message <u96thc$1pesr$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
> wrote:
>
>> My ISP was indeed BT - and as it happens still is, at least for the
>> next few months.
>>
>> I thought OR would screw up the install (they did) and that way I
>> don't have two companies trying to blame each other (which BT/OR didn't)
>
> They are managed entirely separately and OR is not allowed to favour BT.
>
That's the theory.

I expect that if it goes wrong each will blame the other, which is
harder to do when they are part of the same company.

Andy

On 22/07/2023 in message <u9g8gv$3p1rl$2@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
wrote:

>On 19/07/2023 08:20, Jeff Gaines wrote:
>>On 18/07/2023 in message <u96thc$1pesr$1@dont-email.me> Vir Campestris
>>wrote:
>>
>>>My ISP was indeed BT - and as it happens still is, at least for the next
>>>few months.
>>>
>>>I thought OR would screw up the install (they did) and that way I don't
>>>have two companies trying to blame each other (which BT/OR didn't)
>>
>>They are managed entirely separately and OR is not allowed to favour BT.
>>
>That's the theory.
>
>I expect that if it goes wrong each will blame the other, which is harder
>to do when they are part of the same company.

That wasn't my experience of business :-)

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Remember, the Flat Earth Society has members all around the globe.