ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 23/03/2022 14:18, Tweed wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue, 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes, others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship. P&O have, it appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK? We could, probably, have control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presumably you'd ban the sale of all cruise line tickets in the UK on the
>>>>> same basis?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. Cruise ships call at many overseas ports. UK minimum wage legislation
>>>> can’t be extended to the whole planet. (The practical effect is that cruise
>>>> ships would stop calling at UK ports) However it does seem reasonable to
>>>> extend it to short sea ferry crossings.
>>>
>>> How could you extend it to non-UK ships that aren't based in the UK?
>>> Foreign-owned, foreign-flagged, foreign crews who don't enter the UK
>>> (beyond the dock), travelling to and from non-UK destinations.
>>>
>>> No government would get away with that.
>>>
>>
>> Easily done. Licence the use of docks for ferry purposes and only issue
>> licences to firms that conform to UK minimum wage legislation. Or apply a
>> punative duty to ticket sales for non conforming companies. (Air passenger
>> duty was a way round the problem that it wasn’t legally possible to tax jet
>> fuel)
>>
>
> My understanding is that air passenger duty is levied on all passengers,
> not just those using certain airlines. Would not solve the problem of
> undercutting in gthe ferry industry.
>

Would if the duty were to be waived if the company paid above the minimum
wage.