On 25/03/2022 15:14, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 25/03/2022 13:20, Recliner wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Mar 2022 12:46:31 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 22/03/2022 21:29, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 22/03/2022 14:27, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1ca2f$4uv$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:57:19 on Tue,
>>>>>>>>>> 22 Mar
>>>>>>>>>> 2022, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <t1a1jg$bf2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:20:32 o
>>>>>>>>>>>> n Mon, 21 Mar 2022, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do car ferries have crew sleeping quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For those reports to be true - yes. And many of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> complaining about being fired seem to be employed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to feed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the crew. Sorry if that's a bit recursive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a bit damning, and totally inaccurate!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's the impression those crew gave.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Whilst crew do get fed on board, there are few, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any, hotel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc staff who are dedicated to crew meals etc. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> majority
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> board to service / feed the passengers / lorry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drivers etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would the crew take their meals in the public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restaurants?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I very much doubt it. Ships have separate crew messrooms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And hence separate catering crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They might be back-to-back with the public catering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> served  by the  same crew.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, with a British crew, that's the most likely situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Messrooms on the main passenger deck?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Depends on the design. Some ships I have served on yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> others no. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the "no" cases the crew messrooms are usually above the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> galley and food
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is transferred through a lift so there will be one or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dedicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew servers out of a crew of potentially 100 or so.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The ships we are discussing are the Dover-Calais ferries, if
>>>>>>>>>>>> that helps
>>>>>>>>>>>> narrow down their floor plans. And getting back to before
>>>>>>>>>>>> this diversion
>>>>>>>>>>>> about exactly where the crew eat, where on the ship are
>>>>>>>>>>>> their sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> quarters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've just had a quick scan back through the thread and I
>>>>>>>>>>> can't find any
>>>>>>>>>>> such restriction of the discussion to specifically the
>>>>>>>>>>> Dover-Calais
>>>>>>>>>>> route,
>>>>>>>>>>> rather than any P&O car ferry route.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What other routes did the "800" work on? The Dover-Calais is
>>>>>>>>>> the only
>>>>>>>>>> one I've seen the media and government in anguish about.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then you really haven't been paying attention. There's been a
>>>>>>>>> great fuss
>>>>>>>>> in Norn Ironland because the Larne-Cairnryan route was shut. A
>>>>>>>>> ship on
>>>>>>>>> the Hull-Rotterdam route pulled up the gangplanks and refused
>>>>>>>>> to allow
>>>>>>>>> the "security" staff on.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Much has been made about paying the staff next to nothing is
>>>>>>>> legal because
>>>>>>>> of the laws that cover foreign registered ship.   P&O have, it
>>>>>>>> appears,
>>>>>>>> been cornered into their current action because others, notably
>>>>>>>> Irish
>>>>>>>> Ferries, got there first.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there anything to stop UK government from passing a law
>>>>>>>> preventing a
>>>>>>>> foreign registered regular ferry service (and we can argue what
>>>>>>>> constitutes
>>>>>>>> a regular ferry service) from using a UK port unless the UK
>>>>>>>> minimum wage is
>>>>>>>> paid? Or if they couldn’t be prevented from using the port could
>>>>>>>> they be
>>>>>>>> prevented from discharging traffic by the denial of customs and
>>>>>>>> immigration
>>>>>>>> services?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We’ve prevented the race to the bottom by the introduction of
>>>>>>>> the minimum
>>>>>>>> wage, but ferries seem to have got around this by exploiting
>>>>>>>> international
>>>>>>>> maritime law.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How could international ferries be treated any differently to the
>>>>>>> many
>>>>>>> other foreign-flagged, foreign-owned merchant marine vessels
>>>>>>> sailing on
>>>>>>> international routes that visit the UK?  We could, probably, have
>>>>>>> control
>>>>>>> over ferries sailing between UK ports, but not those sailing to
>>>>>>> non-UK
>>>>>>> ports.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bilateral agreement between the governments of the ferry ports? A
>>>>>> ferry by
>>>>>> definition regularly trips between the two end points. Even if
>>>>>> there is no
>>>>>> bilateral agreement it doesn’t seem to be beyond the wit of legal
>>>>>> drafting
>>>>>> to define a ferry. Or take the pirate radio route and ban the sale
>>>>>> of ferry
>>>>>> tickets in the UK for any ferry crewed under the minimum wage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "By definition a ferry regularly trips between the two end ponts".
>>>>> Really??
>>>>>
>>>>> Currently the Northlink ferry between Shetland and Aberdeen calls on
>>>>> some days via Orkney.
>>>>> I used to work on a ferry going Portsmouth / St Helier / St
>>>>> Peterport /
>>>>> Cherbourg and back to Portsmouth.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could quote others. It is correct that all the P&O routes
>>>>> affected by
>>>>> the current dispute are single end to end routes, but even P&O used to
>>>>> operate a tri-point route.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your definition is incorrect!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It may be incorrect. I could extend the definition to include regularly
>>>> operating between 3 or 4 points. I’m very sure that a legal drafter
>>>> could
>>>> come up with a suitable definition.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that international law that is really intended for go
>>>> anywhere
>>>> shipping is being abused for a fixed service. Where the Burger King
>>>> worker
>>>> at Dover ferry terminal is on minimum wage but the cook on the ferry is
>>>> earning significantly less there is something wrong.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Is that very different to a cruise ship doing a regular weekly itinerary
>>> serving the same ports, with the staff paid less than for similar
>>> roles on
>>> land? Other than that tickets are only available for round trips, rather
>>> than port-to-port.
>>
>> And what about ocean liners like the QM2, which ply between New York
>> and Southampton?
>
> What other Ocean Liners are there and does she still do that?
>

Ahh, depends on your dictionary but a common definition of liner is "a
ship belonging to a regular line" or similar. If the regular line is
across an ocean then the ship is an ocean liner. The "regular" bit means
following a timetable. It does NOT mean that it is a full passenger ship
- in days of yore there were many cargo liners - and they still exist.

https://www.cargoshipvoyages.com

So, yes, ocean liners do still exist!

OK, maybe I am being pedantic but....

--
Colin