Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>
>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>
>>>>> "[....]
>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>
>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>
>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>
>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>
>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>
>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>
>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>> through Manx waters.
>>
>> Not true.
>>
> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.

I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.

>
>>>
>>>> Examples include:
>>>>
>>>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>>>> through UK territorial waters
>>>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>>>> Republic of Ireland)
>>>>
>>> That looks like it pre-dates the 2020 S.I.
>>> OTOH it might aver to EU legislation being even more beneficial for
>>> the workers.
>>>
>>>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>>>> multi-port voyage
>>>>
>>>> ?????
>>>>
>>>> And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
>>>> as little as £1.80 per hour:
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>
>>>>
>>> There is no Indian territorial sea between GB and Ireland.
>>>
>>
>> So what? It's irrelevant.
>>
> Then why did you mention India ?
>

I mentioned Indian seafarers. Why do you think that has anything whatever
to do with Indan territorial waters?