According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
here.

P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
will apply to all ferry firms.

Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
appearing in the web version for some reason.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
> here.
>
> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
> will apply to all ferry firms.
>
> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>
>

The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
prevail if the crew aren't from either country?

Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>> here.
>>
>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>
>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>
>>
>
> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>
> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>
>

Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.

I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship. You
could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.

Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
they started the whole thing off.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>> here.
>>>
>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>
>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>
>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>
>>
>
> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.

The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?

>
> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.

It may not be nearly as easy as you think.

And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
nay end up worse off than now.

> You
> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.

Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.

>
> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
> they started the whole thing off.

Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.

On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>
>>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>
>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>
> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>
>>
>> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>
> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>
> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
> nay end up worse off than now.
>
>> You
>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>
> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>
>>
>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>> they started the whole thing off.
>
> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>
>
>

I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!

--
Colin

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:

>On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>
>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>
>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>
>>>
>>> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>
>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>
>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>
>>> You
>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>
>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>
>>>
>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>
>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!

Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international treaties that restrict what individual countries can
do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned, foreign-registered ships that ply international
routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT —
wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 10:06:00 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>> here.
>>>
>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>
>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>
>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>
>>
>
>Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>
>I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>then it is a duck.
>
An elephant actually ;-).
"Where it applies as an element of a criminal charge, dishonesty is by
no means a defined concept. On the contrary, like the elephant, it is
characterised more by recognition when encountered than by
description." (Ivey v. Genting Casinos).

P&O Irish Sea routes involve four legal systems, three (Ireland,
Northern Ireland, England) being fairly close in application of Civil
Law while the fourth (Scotland) is similar enough in Civil Law such
that most cases reach the same result but not inevitably via the same
legal routes. The same employment contract can be differently
interpreted on opposite sides of the Irish Sea :-
https://www.cipd.co.uk/knowledge/fundamentals/emp-law/about/northern-ireland-differences-factsheet#gref

In practice I would expect the ferry company to have difficulty
employing workers under conditions worse than at the better of two (or
three?) ends where there is variation.

>With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
>something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship. You
>could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>
>Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>they started the whole thing off.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>
>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>
>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>
>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>
>>>> You
>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>
>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>
>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>
>Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned, foreign-registered ships that ply international
>routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT —
>wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>
AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea

"[....]
It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
2020.

These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:

-all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
[....]"

In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> According to this morning’s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can’t get a link at the moment as the “classic” Times app is not giving
>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn’t
>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>
>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I’m sure I could come up with
>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>
>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>
>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>
>>>>> You
>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>
>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>
>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>
>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT —
>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>
> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>
> "[....]
> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
> 2020.
>
> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>
> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
> [....]"
>
> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>

I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:

Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage

Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
minimum wage legislation.

Examples include:

a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
through UK territorial waters
ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
Republic of Ireland)
vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
multi-port voyage

—————

And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
as little as £1.80 per hour:
<https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>
>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>
>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You
>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>
>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>
>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>
>> "[....]
>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>> 2020.
>>
>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>
>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>> [....]"
>>
>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>
>
>I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>
>Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>
>Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>minimum wage legislation.
>
The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
through Manx waters.

>Examples include:
>
>a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>through UK territorial waters
>ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>Republic of Ireland)
>
That looks like it pre-dates the 2020 S.I.
OTOH it might aver to EU legislation being even more beneficial for
the workers.

>vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>multi-port voyage
>
>—————
>
>And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
>as little as £1.80 per hour:
><https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>
>
There is no Indian territorial sea between GB and Ireland.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>
>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>
>>> "[....]
>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>> 2020.
>>>
>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>
>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>> [....]"
>>>
>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>
>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>
>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>> minimum wage legislation.
>>
> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
> through Manx waters.

Not true.

>
>> Examples include:
>>
>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>> through UK territorial waters
>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>> Republic of Ireland)
>>
> That looks like it pre-dates the 2020 S.I.
> OTOH it might aver to EU legislation being even more beneficial for
> the workers.
>
>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>> multi-port voyage
>>
>> —————
>>
>> And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
>> as little as £1.80 per hour:
>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>
>>
> There is no Indian territorial sea between GB and Ireland.
>

So what? It's irrelevant.

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>
>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>
>>>> "[....]
>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>> 2020.
>>>>
>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>
>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>> [....]"
>>>>
>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>
>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>
>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>
>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>> through Manx waters.
>
>Not true.
>
Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.

>>
>>> Examples include:
>>>
>>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>>> through UK territorial waters
>>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>>> Republic of Ireland)
>>>
>> That looks like it pre-dates the 2020 S.I.
>> OTOH it might aver to EU legislation being even more beneficial for
>> the workers.
>>
>>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>>> multi-port voyage
>>>
>>> ?????
>>>
>>> And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
>>> as little as £1.80 per hour:
>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>
>>>
>> There is no Indian territorial sea between GB and Ireland.
>>
>
>So what? It's irrelevant.
>
Then why did you mention India ?

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>
>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>
>>>>> "[....]
>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>
>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>
>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>
>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>
>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>
>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>
>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>> through Manx waters.
>>
>> Not true.
>>
> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.

I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.

>
>>>
>>>> Examples include:
>>>>
>>>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>>>> through UK territorial waters
>>>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>>>> Republic of Ireland)
>>>>
>>> That looks like it pre-dates the 2020 S.I.
>>> OTOH it might aver to EU legislation being even more beneficial for
>>> the workers.
>>>
>>>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>>>> multi-port voyage
>>>>
>>>> ?????
>>>>
>>>> And that's why P&O's new agency crews from India are reported to be earning
>>>> as little as £1.80 per hour:
>>>> <https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/21/replacements-for-po-ferries-crew-paid-180-an-hour-unions-say>
>>>>
>>> There is no Indian territorial sea between GB and Ireland.
>>>
>>
>> So what? It's irrelevant.
>>
> Then why did you mention India ?
>

On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>
>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>
>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>
>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>
>>> Not true.
>>>
>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>
>I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>
Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>
>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>
>>>> Not true.
>>>>
>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>
>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>
> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> P&O Ferries is simply recruiting foreign seafarers for its foreign routes,
> and paying them, in line with the normal Merchant Marne rules. P&O Cruises
> has long done the same. There's no 'attempted fiddle' in that.
>
>
>
>

It will be interesting to see if the former LNER Paddle steamer PS Waverley
is able to fulfil her planned schedule this year, they pay the rates
required but it is hard work compared to say crewing a small freighter.
Last year she stayed in Scottish Waters which while that can be partly
blamed on Covid and enforced layup for a period it was also the result of
not being able to get enough crew on the roster to ensure there would be
enough of them to do the away tours to England . Brexit,Covid etc had all
created the conditions that made applying for positions for the season
unattractive to the East Europeans who have been the main source of crew in
recent years. At one time the crew were recruited from the traditional
source which were the Scottish Islands but they have all passed on now with
no one to replace them.

GH

On 28 Mar 2022 13:07:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> P&O Ferries is simply recruiting foreign seafarers for its foreign routes,
>> and paying them, in line with the normal Merchant Marne rules. P&O Cruises
>> has long done the same. There's no 'attempted fiddle' in that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>It will be interesting to see if the former LNER Paddle steamer PS Waverley
>is able to fulfil her planned schedule this year, they pay the rates
>required but it is hard work compared to say crewing a small freighter.
>Last year she stayed in Scottish Waters which while that can be partly
>blamed on Covid and enforced layup for a period it was also the result of
>not being able to get enough crew on the roster to ensure there would be
>enough of them to do the away tours to England . Brexit,Covid etc had all
>created the conditions that made applying for positions for the season
>unattractive to the East Europeans who have been the main source of crew in
>recent years. At one time the crew were recruited from the traditional
>source which were the Scottish Islands but they have all passed on now with
>no one to replace them.

Do any volunteers work on her?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2022 13:07:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>

>>>
>>
>> It will be interesting to see if the former LNER Paddle steamer PS Waverley
>> is able to fulfil her planned schedule this year, they pay the rates
>> required but it is hard work compared to say crewing a small freighter.
>> Last year she stayed in Scottish Waters which while that can be partly
>> blamed on Covid and enforced layup for a period it was also the result of
>> not being able to get enough crew on the roster to ensure there would be
>> enough of them to do the away tours to England . Brexit,Covid etc had all
>> created the conditions that made applying for positions for the season
>> unattractive to the East Europeans who have been the main source of crew in
>> recent years. At one time the crew were recruited from the traditional
>> source which were the Scottish Islands but they have all passed on now with
>> no one to replace them.
>
> Do any volunteers work on her?
>

AFAIK the only regular volunteer roles were manning the gift shop and the
occasional person doing a commentary of things and scenery to be seen on a
trip .
Last year they did approach the organisations of other historic vessels
some of which are manned by volunteers to see if we could spare anyone who
was suitably qualified,anyone who did though would have become paid crew .
Nobody went from the organisation I am part of because we were too busy
with our own project, the Covid shutdown in 2020 lead to a natural break
for many older volunteers
who found restarting again a bit too strenuous, some of were due STCW
refreshers and even the basic course can be quite physical especially the
firefighting part with the need to manoeuvre heavy hoses in a hot smoke
filled compartment while wearing a BA set.
I would not be surprised if the Heritage Railway movement has also found
the same thing with older volunteers no longer coming back to physically
demanding roles once they have stopped for a while.
Fortunately we have some younger replacements coming on nicely.

GH

On 28 Mar 2022 15:15:49 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 28 Mar 2022 13:07:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It will be interesting to see if the former LNER Paddle steamer PS Waverley
>>> is able to fulfil her planned schedule this year, they pay the rates
>>> required but it is hard work compared to say crewing a small freighter.
>>> Last year she stayed in Scottish Waters which while that can be partly
>>> blamed on Covid and enforced layup for a period it was also the result of
>>> not being able to get enough crew on the roster to ensure there would be
>>> enough of them to do the away tours to England . Brexit,Covid etc had all
>>> created the conditions that made applying for positions for the season
>>> unattractive to the East Europeans who have been the main source of crew in
>>> recent years. At one time the crew were recruited from the traditional
>>> source which were the Scottish Islands but they have all passed on now with
>>> no one to replace them.
>>
>> Do any volunteers work on her?
>>
>
>AFAIK the only regular volunteer roles were manning the gift shop and the
>occasional person doing a commentary of things and scenery to be seen on a
>trip .
>Last year they did approach the organisations of other historic vessels
>some of which are manned by volunteers to see if we could spare anyone who
>was suitably qualified,anyone who did though would have become paid crew .
>Nobody went from the organisation I am part of because we were too busy
>with our own project, the Covid shutdown in 2020 lead to a natural break
>for many older volunteers
>who found restarting again a bit too strenuous, some of were due STCW
>refreshers and even the basic course can be quite physical especially the
>firefighting part with the need to manoeuvre heavy hoses in a hot smoke
>filled compartment while wearing a BA set.
>I would not be surprised if the Heritage Railway movement has also found
>the same thing with older volunteers no longer coming back to physically
>demanding roles once they have stopped for a while.

Yes, very likely.

>Fortunately we have some younger replacements coming on nicely.

Though I suppose the lack of running trains for much of the time didn't help drum up new enthusiasm?

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 28 Mar 2022 15:15:49 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 28 Mar 2022 13:07:25 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It will be interesting to see if the former LNER Paddle steamer PS Waverley
>>>> is able to fulfil her planned schedule this year, they pay the rates
>>>> required but it is hard work compared to say crewing a small freighter.
>>>> Last year she stayed in Scottish Waters which while that can be partly
>>>> blamed on Covid and enforced layup for a period it was also the result of
>>>> not being able to get enough crew on the roster to ensure there would be
>>>> enough of them to do the away tours to England . Brexit,Covid etc had all
>>>> created the conditions that made applying for positions for the season
>>>> unattractive to the East Europeans who have been the main source of crew in
>>>> recent years. At one time the crew were recruited from the traditional
>>>> source which were the Scottish Islands but they have all passed on now with
>>>> no one to replace them.
>>>
>>> Do any volunteers work on her?
>>>
>>
>> AFAIK the only regular volunteer roles were manning the gift shop and the
>> occasional person doing a commentary of things and scenery to be seen on a
>> trip .
>> Last year they did approach the organisations of other historic vessels
>> some of which are manned by volunteers to see if we could spare anyone who
>> was suitably qualified,anyone who did though would have become paid crew .
>> Nobody went from the organisation I am part of because we were too busy
>> with our own project, the Covid shutdown in 2020 lead to a natural break
>> for many older volunteers
>> who found restarting again a bit too strenuous, some of were due STCW
>> refreshers and even the basic course can be quite physical especially the
>> firefighting part with the need to manoeuvre heavy hoses in a hot smoke
>> filled compartment while wearing a BA set.
>> I would not be surprised if the Heritage Railway movement has also found
>> the same thing with older volunteers no longer coming back to physically
>> demanding roles once they have stopped for a while.
>
> Yes, very likely.
>
>> Fortunately we have some younger replacements coming on nicely.
>
> Though I suppose the lack of running trains for much of the time didn't
> help drum up new enthusiasm?
>

The project I’m involved with is Maritime so I couldn’t say.

GH

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>
>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>
>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>
>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>
>The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>
"Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
destination or a calling point.
<snip>

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>>
>>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>>
>>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>>
>> The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>>
> "Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
> sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
> destination or a calling point.

On 28/03/2022 22:13, Recliner wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>>>
>>> The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>>>
>> "Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
>> sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
>> destination or a calling point.
>
> No.
>
> I suggest you read the document you yourself linked, and which I've already
> quoted:
>
> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>
> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
> minimum wage legislation.
>
> Examples include:
>
> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
> through UK territorial waters
>
> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
> Republic of Ireland)
>
> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
> multi-port voyage

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/03/2022 22:13, Recliner wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>>>>
>>>> The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>>>>
>>> "Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
>>> sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
>>> destination or a calling point.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> I suggest you read the document you yourself linked, and which I've already
>> quoted:
>>
>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>
>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>> minimum wage legislation.
>>
>> Examples include:
>>
>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>> through UK territorial waters
>>
>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>> Republic of Ireland)
>>
>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>> multi-port voyage
>
> For a full definition look to the original document:
> https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
>

On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 23:23:44 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
<recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:

> The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
>that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.

On the Cross Channel route the eventual winners might turn out to be
Eurotunnel. A quick google suggests they currently have about 70% of
car traffic and 40% of freight. Of course the longer journey times of
the ferry give the freight drivers a break, interesting to see how
this plays out!