On 28/03/2022 22:13, Recliner wrote:
> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>>>
>>>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>>>
>>> The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>>>
>> "Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
>> sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
>> destination or a calling point.
>
> No.
>
> I suggest you read the document you yourself linked, and which I've already
> quoted:
>
> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>
> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
> minimum wage legislation.
>
> Examples include:
>
> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
> through UK territorial waters
>
> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
> Republic of Ireland)
>
> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
> multi-port voyage

For a full definition look to the original document:
https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm

--
Colin