ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 28/03/2022 22:13, Recliner wrote:
>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Mar 2022 08:58:24 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 23:09:01 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 22:17:38 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 21:52:42 -0000 (UTC), Recliner
>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:52:17 +0100, Recliner
>>>>>>>>>>> <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 27 Mar 2022 12:05:11 +0100, ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2022 11:29, Recliner wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> According to this morning?s Sunday Times Grant Shapps is going to ban P&O
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for UK ports unless they pay minimum wage. Something I believe I suggested
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> P&O apparently welcomes this as a level playing field, so presumably this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will apply to all ferry firms.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can?t get a link at the moment as the ?classic? Times app is not giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> links (often has technical difficulties with links) and the article isn?t
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appearing in the web version for some reason.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key thing is that it will require new legislation and close cooperation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the countries at the other end of the links (ie, France, Ireland,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Netherlands, Belgium, etc). While all might readily agree in principle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming up with jointly agreed watertight legislation (that distinguishes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between ferries and other merchant marine vessels) won't be easy. For
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example, which country's minimum wage or trade union legislation should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prevail if the crew aren't from either country?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ironically, as you say, the ferry companies might be happy to cooperate, as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it will create a level playing field for all of them. It was the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such equality that forced P&O Ferries to do what it did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does it need cooperation from the other end country? Just state that any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ferry service using a UK port has to at least meet UK minimum wage rates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The article mentions that he's in talks with his French, Dutch and Irish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counterparts. Otherwise, how could the UK set a minimum wage for the parts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the journeys outside UK territorial waters?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I?m sure a definition of a ferry service can be found. Our legal system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does have the concept of if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then it is a duck. With a little thought I?m sure I could come up with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something that differentiated between a ferry, and say, a cruise ship.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may not be nearly as easy as you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And what's to stop the ferries charging a compensatory high price for the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crew uniforms, food and lodgings on board? And if the crew end up having to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pay UK/French/Dutch income tax on their pre- deduction muni um wages they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nay end up worse off than now.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could also give the minister powers to declare a service falling within the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rules if a firm decided to push the boundaries.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Instant lawsuits that the government would surely lose.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish Ferries seem to have escaped public wrath over this, and it appears
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they started the whole thing off.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup, just following the example of all other international vessels.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suspect it is a political "sound bite" that will never come to fruition!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, I suspect the same. There must be all sorts of international
>>>>>>>>>>>> treaties that restrict what individual countries can
>>>>>>>>>>>> do to control the pay of foreign-recruited crews of foreign-owned,
>>>>>>>>>>>> foreign-registered ships that ply international
>>>>>>>>>>>> routes. Let's suppose such restrictions led to Filipino crews losing
>>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs in favour of UK members of the RMT ?
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't the Philippines have something to say on the matter?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> AFAICT any of the crews of the ferries plying between UK ports are
>>>>>>>>>>> subject to UK minumum wage legislation :-
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.gov.uk/guidance/minimum-wage-seafarers-and-other-people-working-at-sea
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "[....]
>>>>>>>>>>> It covers the changes made to the National Minimum Wage (Offshore
>>>>>>>>>>> Employment) Order 1999 (SI1128) which came into force on 1 October
>>>>>>>>>>> 2020.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> These changes extended the right to the minimum wage to:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -all seafarers and employed fishers working in the UK territorial sea,
>>>>>>>>>>> regardless of where they ordinarily work or where a ship is registered
>>>>>>>>>>> [....]"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> In practice that maybe leaves your Filipino crews being more willing
>>>>>>>>>>> to work for the minimum wage than UK staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think anyone doubted that employment conditions could be controlled
>>>>>>>>>> on ferries plying between UK ports. What is much more difficult to control
>>>>>>>>>> is employment conditions on ships operating international routes, between
>>>>>>>>>> the UK and foreign countries, and this article confirms that they are
>>>>>>>>>> indeed excluded from UK minimum wage legislation:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>>>>>>>>>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>>>>>>>>>> minimum wage legislation.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The only innocent passage between GB and Ireland in this case would be
>>>>>>>>> through Manx waters.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not true.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Manx territorial waters are not UK or Irish.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know, but it's utterly irrelevant.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Manx waters lie between GB and Ireland.
>>>>
>>>> The routes between GB and EI pass through international waters.
>>>>
>>> "Innocent passage" is the transit of a craft through the territorial
>>> sea or airspace of a state other than one containing the origin,
>>> destination or a calling point.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> I suggest you read the document you yourself linked, and which I've already
>> quoted:
>>
>> Exemptions: Innocent passage and transit passage
>>
>> Vessels entering UK territorial waters as part of an international voyage,
>> are considered to be under innocent passage, and are not affected by UK
>> minimum wage legislation.
>>
>> Examples include:
>>
>> a ship sailing from one international port to another that happened to pass
>> through UK territorial waters
>>
>> ferry services operating between the UK and mainland Europe (including the
>> Republic of Ireland)
>>
>> vessels calling at a British port as part of a longer international,
>> multi-port voyage
>
> For a full definition look to the original document:
> https://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part2.htm
>

Thanks

Meanwhile, Shapps seems to be serious:

<https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/28/shapps-gives-po-one-last-chance-reverse-sacking-800-workers/>

P&O Ferries' decision to sack British 800 seafarers and replace them with
cheaper staff from overseas has shone a light on a practice that is not new
news for those on the left of the political spectrum.

But in Shapps, a Conservative minister, they have found an unlikely ally.
He has now got the bit between his teeth, Whitehall sources say. He is
determined to ram through changes that force all ferry operators to pay the
minimum wage - much to the chagrin of many in the industry.

“P&O has ruined it for everyone,” the Whitehall source adds.

Seafarers and the trade unions that represent them have long complained of
not being paid the minimum wage.

And for Karl Turner, Labour MP for Hull East, the fight to pay seafarers
the minimum wage is personal.

“This campaign has been going not just since I’ve been an MP for 12 years,”
he says. “My old man was the National Union of Seamen full-time official
from 1971. He campaigned since 1971 and before.”

Pleas made by Turner, who has ties to the militant Rail, Maritime and
Transport (RMT) union, have fallen on deaf ears within Whitehall.

But unwittingly, P&O’s actions appear to have solidified opinions on both
sides of the political divide.

“My advisers keep on telling me ‘stop praising Grant Shapps’,” Turner says.
“[But] the truth is Grant Shapps has done a lot of heavy lifting behind the
scenes. Because every time I've spoken with ministers and civil servants
that said to me: ‘This is impossible to do.’

“I’m going to thank P&O, because their despicable act has caused the
Government embarrassment and shame. And [ministers] have had to act.”

For years ferry operators have taken advantage of an employment law
loophole allowing them to pay below the minimum wage.

Irish Ferries, for instance, has faced accusations of doing just that for
some time, after moving the registration of its vessels to Cyprus 16 years
ago. It is not alone.

Condor Ferries, which runs services between the UK and the Channel Islands,
was repeatedly criticised by union leaders for refusing to pay the minimum
wage when owned by Australian investor Macquarie. Another is CLdN
Cobelfret, which specialises in freight roll-on-roll-off services.

…

Peter Hebblethwaite, the chief executive of P&O Ferries, reflected the
sentiment of most of the ferry industry in a letter to the chairs of the
Commons business and transport committees that was published on Monday.

“We reviewed all options available to the business, including whether we
should proceed with this fundamental crewing model change. Restructuring
our workforce in this way was not a course of action that we ever wanted to
take as an organisation, but it was a necessary action to ensure the future
viability of the business,” he wrote.

A large number of smaller operators into UK ports that were able to exploit
the maritime laws and not pay the minimum wage are now looking on
nervously. The situation could be terminal for many of them. Facing a large
increase in their cost base from a near doubling of staff costs, balancing
the books could prove impossible.

And they may struggle to pivot their operations to the Continent.
Department for Transport officials are also understood to be working
closely alongside their counterparts in Paris, the Hague and Dublin.

“It’s not just going to be UK waters. They’ve got the French, the Dutch and
the Irish on side. So it will be for the whole of the voyage,” says one
person with knowledge of discussions. “The French and the Dutch and the
Irish are going to bring their legislation in line as well.”

Shapps has given Hebblethwaite “one last chance” to reverse the
redundancies. In doing so, it is one last chance not to skewer the rest of
the industry. With the sign-off of its Dubai owners, Whitehall sources are
not optimistic that P&O will backtrack on its plans.

Talks between DFDS, Stena Line and the Government, meanwhile, will continue
on Tuesday with Shapps making way for Robert Courts, his junior minister.
People close to them said that although “progress was made”, the situation
is fraught with complexity.

If P&O stands firm, there will be chaos at the ports just as Britain
limbers up for the great Easter getaway later this week. P&O typically
takes about 10,000 people a day from Dover to France during the holidays.

An apparent softening of P&O's stance on Monday night could be little more
than the operator playing politics.

“We fully welcome the government’s commitment to increasing the minimum
wage for all seafarers working in British waters," a spokesman said. "From
the outset we have called for a level playing field when it comes to pay
and conditions on British ferry routes.”

The net is tightening, not just on P&O, but on the wider ferry industry
that Turner and his father have railed against for decades.