On Thu, 24 Mar 2022 12:40:22 -0000, whisky-dave <whisky.dave@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 22 March 2022 at 19:33:42 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 15:22:18 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 17:06:54 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 16:11:57 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 14:52:58 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:49:23 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail..com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 13:03:01 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 12:38:48 -0000, whisky-dave <whisk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Friday, 18 March 2022 at 12:01:05 UTC, Commander Kinsey wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> On Fri, 18 Mar 2022 11:18:01 -0000, David Brooks <B...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Yes - switched to geographic features long ago!
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10 beta: Kodiak - 13 September 2000
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.0: Cheetah - 24 March 2001
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.1: Puma - 25 September 2001
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.2: Jaguar - 24 August 2002
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.3 Panther (Pinot) - 24 October 2003
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.4 Tiger (Merlot) - 29 April 2005
>> >> >> >> >> > [OS X 10.4.4 Tiger (Chardonnay)]
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.5 Leopard (Chablis) - 26 October 2007
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard - 28 August 2009
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.7 Lion (Barolo) - 20 July 2011
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion (Zinfandel) - 25 July 2012
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.9 Mavericks (Cabernet) - 22 October 2013
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.10: Yosemite (Syrah) - 16 October 2014
>> >> >> >> >> > OS X 10.11: El Capitan (Gala) - 30 September 2015
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.12: Sierra (Fuji) - 20 September 2016
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.13: High Sierra (Lobo) - 25 September 2017
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.14: Mojave (Liberty) - 24 September 2018
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 10.15: Catalina (Jazz) - 7 October 2019
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 11: Big Sur - 12 November 2020
>> >> >> >> >> > macOS 12: Monterey - 25 October 2021
>> >> >> >> >> Oh that really is childish, look how they started going up in whole numbers. 19 years of point something, then suddenly two whole numbers in 2 years. It's a competition between them and Microsoft to have a higher number.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Nothing to do with MS and whole numbers. It is how updates work.
>> >> >> >> > If it's a minor u[pdate or bug fix you don;t need a whole number change.
>> >> >> >> > Mac OS 1 started in 1984.
>> >> >> >> > In those days updates were'nt as regualar as there was little point in sending out new discs every few days.
>> >> >> >> > It wasn;t until easy downloads for most were availbe that it was worth doing such small regular increments.
>> >> >> >> > Mac OS X or 10. was a totally new system based on uniX
>> >> >> >> Incorrect. My Windows 11 is 10.0.22000.556 if you ask it.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> I also don't believe Apple released only minor changes for 19 years, then suddenly came up with two major changes in 2 years.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I never said minor changes or updates, I said increments.
>> >> >> You said "If it's a minor u[pdate or bug fix you don;t need a whole number change."
>> >> >
>> >> > Correct regarding intergers
>> >> > Recently my firefox went from 97.0.1 to 97.0.2 which just fixed a few bugs.
>> >> Yeah, so Firefox have made 96 significant changes, I don't think so.
>> >
>> > No one said it has.
>> But the first number is for a major change - you said so yourself:
>
> No I used the word increment nothing to do with first numbers.
>
>> "Nothing to do with MS and whole numbers. It is how updates work. If it's a minor update or bug fix you don't need a whole number change."
>
> Yep.

So you're saying a big change is the first number, and a small change is other numbers. so Firefox are being silly when they say 96 major changes.

>> > What about windows 5, 6 and 9 ?
>> Marketing bullshit, they decided years or names would be better. No different to the the animal bullshit from Apple. Is a tiger better than a leopard? Who knows? Only David Attenborough.
>
> They are differnt animals and I'm sure there's no order of which animal is best, it's just a label.
> A bit like windows millennium and what about XP, CE and vista.

I agree they're all stupid, they should just be numbers. I have no idea if a lollipop is better than a mars bar on Android either.

>> >> > whereas OS9 to OS X was major change like going from DOS to Window, but even greater
>> >> > as it was a complete system re-write not just a fancy GUI.
>> >> And somehow 11 and 12 appeared in 2 years, after 19 years of no major changes?
>> >
>> > what do you mean by major change? cars haven't changed much since in the last 100 years have they ?
>> > They still have a wheel in each corner and another used as steering..
>> Apple decided the last two were significant, yet the 19 years of work before that achieved nothing significant.
>
> Because that's how it was.
> A bit like going into a bar and drinking differnt types of beer and one day you then start buying spirits.
> Totally differnt way of drinking.

So you're saying the last two re significantly different? I doubt it.

>> >> >> > Their effect was generall indicated by the number just like anything else that uses numbers.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > What is windows 10 got to do with Mac OS X (10), Mac OS X came out long before windows 10.
>> >> >> It shows MS hasn't actually used a whole version number, they're just keeping up with Apple on the box.
>> >> >
>> >> > What box ,
>> >> The cardboard box, I was meaning the number people see when they buy it.
>> >
>> > Not sure when the last 'box' for apple OS , last one I have is snow leopard, about 10 years ago.
>> >
>> > Are windows still shipping their OS's in boxes with DVDs inside.
>> It's a figure of speech you silly old fart.
>> >> >> > Hwo comes windows was such an erratci number pattern W3.0, 3.1 , 3.5 NT4 Wxp, W2000 W millenium
>> >> >> > W2003 then windows vista then windows 7,8, what happens to 9 then windows 10 trying to keep up with Mac OS 10
>> >> >> The sales team couldn't make up their mind whether words, years, or version numbers sell best.
>> >> >
>> >> > So what happened to windows 9, Windows went from 7 to 8 then 8.1 then 10 and now 11 shortly to be windows 365 next
>> >> > which will be even more confusing.
>> >> If you say 9 in English, it sounds like "no" to a German. They didn't want a Windows no.
>> >
>> > People didn't think that about Mac OS 9
>> Germans aren't stupid enough to use an Apple Os.
>
> So why worry about whate germans think ?

They didn't, which is why Apple used 9 and MS didn't. Actually most Germans use Linux. At least every German I worked with did.

>> >> >> > If your windows 11 reports it'self as being windows 10.0.22000.556 , that's not Apples problem.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > I've used all since Tiger! :-)
>> >> >> >> >> Why did you take that long to upgrade to 10?
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Think my first usable was Puma although didn't start liking it until Jaguar,
>> >> >> >> They all look the same to me.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > No suprise there , but windows from XP onwards has always loooked like a crappy verion of Macs OS's to me.
>> >> >> > even since windows 3.1
>> >> >> > Word came out first on the Mac with WYSISYG , so MS tried to copy Mac interface, icons and usability but mostly failed.
>> >> >> It vastly improved it. We had a taskbar long before you.
>> >> >
>> >> > A taskbar is quite minor though and while you may have had a taskbar, Mac OS you could just go to the finder icon top right click and go down to any applicationt hat was currently open this came out in the late 1980s or maybe ealier .
>> >> The taskbar is the best thing since sliced toast. You can always see what apps are running and easily switch between them.
>> >
>> > You could do that with a Mac long before from the finder icon, you could even see how much memory they were using,
>> > task bar can;t do that. Here's system 6 from 1988.
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_6
>> Where does that say anything about which apps are running?
>
> it shows how much memory the system is taken then the finder and if there was an app running
> it would show up.

The task bar is for what's running, the task manager is for what you're talking about.

>> P.S. ROTFPMSL!
>> "Initial releases of System 6 are unstable; many third-party developers did not receive advance copies, resulting in widespread compatibility issues.[2] The contemporary versions of many common programs such as Microsoft Excel, Microsoft Works and 4th Dimension were not fully compatible with System 6.[2] There were also software bugs in the Color Manager, Script Manager, and Sound Manager extension files. Apple announced that 66 bugs were fixed with version 6.0.1 update, in September 1988.[16][17] However, a major bug involving the text-spacing of screen fonts was found, and was fixed in version 6.0.2.[17] Some customers waited longer until moving to System 6 because of its poor reputation."
>
> Not the small increments in the number changes.
> And as MS they were still on DOS, PC usuers will still typing command lines, while mace users were draging icons.
> PCs couldn't even run word or excel until windows 3 which wouldn't be released until 2 years later in 1990 and that was pretty crap,
> I remember it. Also yuo had to keep switching back to DOS to do most things.

Yeah the BnW overpriced Apple was way better.

>> >> > My all time favourite game was carmeggedon.
>> >> I loved that - did you get the splat pack for more blood?
>> >
>> > Yes, let say I aquired it. Once we had 6 players set up in a house everyone bought there maces over.
>> > Mostly the G3 CRTs my mac was a G3 300 tower, amazing what you could do with 300MHz and 6MB of video ram.
>> I ran a coax ethernet cable (and an audio cable) along the back garden wall of several houses and made a network for the whole street. Multiplayer games, yelling at each other through microphones, waking people up in the middle of the night, and abusing the free internet access from the uni I was studying at.
>
> We were using RJ45 with a hub, I think the PCs in the lab were still using thinnet, the iMacs came with it built in
> so people didn't have to worry about installing cards getting the right software it just worked.

Appletalk was a pain in the arse.

I used coax as the cable is much tougher and was fine outside in Scottish weather.

>> >> Remember the grannies saying "I was in the war!!"?
>> >
>> > Sheep and penguins were fun, elephants were quite difficult.
>> Elephant! Abandon ship!.... er car.
>> >> > But Apple when they went from the G3 to G4 they had a velocity engine or something which
>> >> > made the car blow up if you used a weapon while driving , which made the game pretty pointless .
>> >> The computer hardware made the car in the game explode? WTF?
>> >
>> > Yes when you hit the fire motar but only the motar fire nothing else tripped it.
>> > your car would just explode as if you'd been hit by the mortar. All other weapons worked ok.
>> > I have carmeggdon on my iPhone noew but it;s difficult to control without a keyboard.
>> >
>> >> >> >> > at work the highest I can go is High Sierra.
>> >> >> >> Why can you not go higher at work?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > This Mid 2011 iMac is just too old to install the later software, but is quite amazing how many PC users come in and say you're lucky you've got such a nice macine and they have a 1-3 year-ld PC in their hands.
>> >> >> > They don't believe me when I tell them it's over 10 years old, it;s never crashed , I've never had ro re-install the OS .
>> >> >> I have the latest Windows on a 13 year old PC. But Apple doesn't know what compatibility means. I remember when USB came out, they immediately stopped serial ports, so we had to change the printer too!
>> >> >
>> >> > But you could start up from a CD drive something you couldn't do from the serial port
>> >> But they could have left them on. PCs kept the parallel and serial ports for ages after USB came along. Did Macs ever have parallel?
>> >
>> > No they seemed to go to SCSI which was much better but of course more expensive, yuo could get IEEE adapters .
>> That SCSI was ridiculous, there must have been about 8 different connectors.
>
> I only remember 2 types that Macs used.

I had to deal with a lot more than that, all of these in fact:
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-UGlY6ECXjEM/VsJ72yTEVZI/AAAAAAAAGl8/2Ih43yAgfk8/s1600/SCSI%2Bconnectors.jpg

>> >> > And after a few years PC followed, I have 92 iMac like PCs in my lab here at work all running W10 they don;t even have a CD/DVD drive.
>> >> > At least my iMac has a CD/DVD drive.
>> >> I plug one in when I need it. They're so rarely used. I installed Windows 11 from a USB stick.
>> >
>> > I'd do the same but I've heard windows 11 doesn;t support dual boots up, so we couldnt; use it here as we need Linux and windows for teaching.
>> > We have about 3000 PCs on this site and most are dual boot.
>> It can't stop you dual booting, that's up to the BIOS.
>> >> >> > The only thing I've done is upgrade the memeory from 8GB to 24GB, which took me a 5mins to do.
>> >> >> > Most of that time was trying to get the DIMMS out of the plastic they came in!
>> >> >> If it will take 24GB, it must be able to take the latest OS. The computer I mentioned above is only 8GB (motherboard maxed out).
>> >> >
>> >> > It's more about the graphics card and processor than memory. Apple do restrict things if they don't think the user experience
>> >> > will be good if you put the latest OS on a computer that is just too old to cope.
>> >> You don't need a graphics card for an OS!
>> >
>> > The OS needs to support the graphics card.
>> The OS should run on a basic card or inbuilt graphics.
>
> Define a basic card ?
> OS's don't have inbuilt graphics, the computer has that.

Windows will run on any graphics, including built in super VGA on the board of an antiquated server, I have two such beasts: One of the little black chips without even a heatsink. VGA analogue output only. https://www.pcbitz.com/content/images/products/13364/thumbnail/dell-poweredge-r410-server-motherboard-1v648-2.jpg

>> > you could have dual monitors on a Mac in the late 80s.
>> >
>> >> >> Did you have to buy overpriced Apple memory, or does it take normal stuff?
>> >> >
>> >> > No normal stuff, usually from crucial.com.
>> >> > In ~1992 I went on the Apple service course near hearthow airport at the time.
>> >> > Part of the test was to upgrade the ram in a quadra 700. I went to the 'teacher' and said can I have
>> >> > four 1MB simms, he said fill out the form, I did and put a local supplier down at £30 per simm,
>> >> > he said you should really get them from us at £100 per simm as we guarentee them.
>> >> > I said we get them and if they don't work send them back and they replace them.
>> >> > Never had a problem upgrading any Mac. They asked where I worked , then they said they understood.
>> >> I did the same with Dells.
>> >> > You get this with most high end companies, you want your Rolex watch battery changed taken it to their local dealer.
>> >> > You want your gucci handband repaired, take it to Gucci.
>> >> > Nothing stopping you from doing it yourself if you know what you're doing. Similar with cars.
>> >> My neighbour has an £80 Calvin Klein watch. I saw him take it off to wash the dishes and he admitted it wasn't waterproof! For that price! When he needed a new battery, he paid £40, half the value of the watch! Fucking idiot, he's a tradesman, he has all sorts of tools. He even repaired the gearbox in a saw. But couldn't change a battery?!
>> >>
>> >> Is it true you can't replace the battery in an Iphone without monumentally expensive tools?
>> >
>> > I think so haven;t tried my iphone 7 is still OK . Don;t think the tools are that expensive, or that specialised.
>> > I've used a credit card to open up a Mac display.
>> Apparently Apple "bricked" Iphones if you tried that sort of "naughty" stuff. They actually destroyed your own property.
>
> That was a myth , plenty of places you can get an iphone battery replaced.

https://www.ipadrehab.com/article.cfm?ArticleNumber=17

> and yuo can do it yuorself but you need a bit of skill.
> https://www.ifixit.com/Device/iPhone_7
>
> Some of my second year electronics students can't even strip a bit of wire without using their phone.
> I tell them to look up stripper on their phone, that keeps them busy for an hour or two ;-)

ROFL! Oh go on, buy them one of the foolproof strippers: http://www.prc68.com/I/Images/AdjWirStrpb.jpg

>> >> > With our lab PCs we were told not to change the hard discs otherwise we'd void the warrenty.
>> >> > So because they are so slow takes 10mins for them to start after installing latest updates,
>> >> > we replaced them with SSDs. If one goes wrong and we've had a few go wrong we put the HDs back,
>> >> > and they don't even know.
>> >> My first PC said it mustn't be opened or the warranty is void. It's bullshit. I'd added a graphics card and they still came out and changed something under warranty. The guy said as long as he didn't see any physical damage by my stupidity it's fine. They just want to put off morons.
>
> Similar approach that Apple takes.
> Then the Apple haters start screaming that Apple stuff can't be repaired or updated.
> I've not needed to have my iphone 7 (2016) repaired or updated so far..

Why do they lie then?

>> > yeah can;t blame them when yo see what some people are like.
>> I worked with a professor who could fuck up any computer by simply touching the mouse. Somehow she'd click 50 things and drag stuff everywhere, a system error would result in seconds. Yet she could speak 17 languages fluently.
>
> Yeah diffent skill sets, a teacher friend of mine has a degree in politics and in history and teaches English.
> But he couldn't login to his bank account on his Apple laptop, but could on his iMac.
> I tried helping him on via a phonecall same username and password, I looked up all the things that might be the cause including
> minot updates to safari, tried other browswers, restarts in the end after 2+ weeks of this
> I had to tell him to phone the bank.
> One day later he phoned me back saying it's working now, I was trying to log into a business account on the Laptop
> and I dont have a business account and that's why the user-name didn't work.
>
> I remember setting him up on the iMac as a 'normal' user account 2 years earlier, it just never occured to me that
> he could get something like that so wrong, maybe the bank has this problem with users .

Common sense isn't.